The Offensive Line conundrum

[Gumby]

.... Vertical jump is a measure of lower body explosiveness, the very trait you wasn't from an offensive lineman who has to power into a block. I do not see why so many people have an issue seeing the possible connection.

....
For example, Nate Solder ran a 4.96 40, Nick Kazcur a 5.28. Vollmer had a 7.51 3-cone, Marcus Cannon a 8.07. There is some correlation between our high picks on the OL and the short shuttle, something else which makes sense in terms of measuring a lineman's short area quickness, but it's not as pronounced a correlation as the VJ one is. I'm confident that VJ is a useful method of judging the likelihood of a Patriot draft pick on the OL, however I can accept that it might be less applicable for a center. We shall see in a months time possibly.
......

So, if VJ is such a great measure of lower body explosiveness, how do you norm for body weight???

To me a guy at 320lb who can VJ 30 is more explosive than a 270lber who can VJ 32. Plus the 320 is a lot bigger rock for a DL to try to move. I'd go for the heavier guy, especially if he had a better 3-cone.

[also thinking about it as I type: what about height-norming? I assume the taller you are the longer your legs are and therefore you should be able to get an extra height (? inch) by just the fact that your knee-hinges at a higher point.]

At the end of the day, I have always thought that compared to other teams the Pats put LESS EMPHASIS on stats and MORE EMPHASIS on film-study / scouts watching the guys actually play. So it still seems more coincidence to me.

But anyway, Manx thanks for the interesting argument-discussion point.

 

[patfanken]

. Wendell never beat out Connolly. Connolly started 11 games in 2011 and Wendell 3.

Andy, don't try and change history just to make a minor point in an relatively unimportant debate that has no answers right now.

However the fact is that during the TC of 2012 there was an open competition for the Center position between Connolly, McDonald (my personal favorite), and Wendell (the almost unanimous choice by most to be a September roster cut) When the dust cleared, it was Wendell who had won the job and went on to have a very good season in 2012 no matter how much you'd like to dismiss it.

 

[Ring 6]

Andy, don't try and change history just to make a minor point in an relatively unimportant debate that has no answers right now.

However the fact is that during the TC of 2012 there was an open competition for the Center position between Connolly, McDonald (my personal favorite), and Wendell (the almost unanimous choice by most to be a September roster cut) When the dust cleared, it was Wendell who had won the job and went on to have a very good season in 2012 no matter how much you'd like to dismiss it.

So first you said 2012, then said it was a typo and you meant 2011, and now you are going back to 2012 and telling me that Connolly starting all season at RG means he was beaten out by Wendell at C?
You are the one changing history, Connolly was moved to RG because Waters retired, and that opened up a job for Wendell.

 

[Ring 6]

This is guesswork though. Why would they value those other vertical jump when there's clear evidence that they value the vertical jump. Vertical jump is a measure of lower body explosiveness, the very trait you wasn't from an offensive lineman who has to power into a block. I do not see why so many people have an issue seeing the possible connection.

Because those other numbers seem to be more pertinent to playing the OL.

As for your final sentence, prove your thesis. As I've looked and seen no other pattern, I think this is wrong. (Edit: I don't mean this to sound so aggressive. I just mean that I'm willing to hear evidence to the contrary).

Have you spread those numbers? I'm not that interested in it to do research.

For example, Nate Solder ran a 4.96 40, Nick Kazcur a 5.28. Vollmer had a 7.51 3-cone, Marcus Cannon a 8.07. There is some correlation between our high picks on the OL and the short shuttle, something else which makes sense in terms of measuring a lineman's short area quickness, but it's not as pronounced a correlation as the VJ one is.

I'm not sure you are applying the same standards. If you list all the same players and their numbers in those drills, I would imagine you can find a line of demarcation that 70% are above. I also think the line is not very meaningful because we don't draft players based on combine numbers.

I'm confident that VJ is a useful method of judging the likelihood of a Patriot draft pick on the OL, however I can accept that it might be less applicable for a center. We shall see in a months time possibly.

You can do that with any measurable. List them all in order, draw a line at the 70% mark and say the Patriots wont likely draft a guy whos number is below that line. I don't find meaning in it.

I would just note that Shelley Smith who they brought in for a visit had a 34" VJ which I've just noticed

I'd be pretty willing to bet that the visit wasn't based on his combine jump.

 

[pazrul72]

Anyone who has lifted weights knows there are two types of exercises. Those that build power, and those that increase "explosion". Its great for a guy to be able to lift 500 pounds but when it turns into a moving target speed is almost as important as power. How fast can you lift that weight is hard to quantify so I could see the Pats using VJ as a measurement for that. I played OL in High School and I can tell you from personal experience that while I can lift a house my VJ is about 6 inches and as such I sucked because people would just run around me. Is it the be all and end all measurement? No there are a lot of other things that matter like foot speed and hand fighting but it is a useful thing to look at for explosive power. How fast can they fire off the ball? More OL/DL battles are won in the first half second of a play then you would guess. While drive blocking power is great a lot of times being in the right position or angle is more important. The running back can run around you if you are just maintaining ground and not letting a defensive guy past.

 

[manxman2601]

So, if VJ is such a great measure of lower body explosiveness, how do you norm for body weight???

To me a guy at 320lb who can VJ 30 is more explosive than a 270lber who can VJ 32. Plus the 320 is a lot bigger rock for a DL to try to move. I'd go for the heavier guy, especially if he had a better 3-cone.

[also thinking about it as I type: what about height-norming? I assume the taller you are the longer your legs are and therefore you should be able to get an extra height (? inch) by just the fact that your knee-hinges at a higher point.]

At the end of the day, I have always thought that compared to other teams the Pats put LESS EMPHASIS on stats and MORE EMPHASIS on film-study / scouts watching the guys actually play. So it still seems more coincidence to me.

But anyway, Manx thanks for the interesting argument-discussion point.

The Pats put a lot of emphasis on measurables. Have a look at the 3-cone and Patriot Defensive Ends. As for equalising for height, that's built in to the vertical jump.