The Case for 5 RBs

[DarrylStingley]

Larry Izzo was:

a) never as good as Slater is.
b) a Patriot until he was 35.

Pointing to Larry Izzo as a reason why Slater might be cut this offseason is akin to pointing to Bruschi in 2010 as a reason why Mayo might be on the chopping block. On multiple levels, it just doesn't work.

These are fair points (both of your posts).

I think Slater's special team stuff talents are a bit overrated and the locker room stuff is not that relevant and over done. I may be wrong about both; just my gut from having watched him on teams over the years and wondered why he got so much attention for them.

IF you think as I do (putting aside whether I'm right; I know you think that I am not), then that he's a crappy WR becomes a little more relevant, especially given that the Pats sometimes use him there. That Brady attempt to him in the 2011 AFC Champ game still gives me the willies, even though that was much more on Tom.

But I get it, the conventional view is that Slater is an elite ST player.

As to Izzo, my point wasn't that he's Izzo now. It was that at some point, even elite ST players like Izzo become expendable.

Last, I take your point about not comparing an elite ST player to someone who will be inactive on many game days. That's fair. It depends on whether one buys Slater as elite or not, and I know that most do, but if you don't, the calculus is a little different.

Last last, I don't claim to be a better or more intense fan than others here (or other folks I don't know)....anyone spending time in this thread is likely a pretty invested fan. I'm just saying that anyone who claims that a fan who has a different view than him about Jackie Slater is therefore a casual fan is making a judgment with painfully few inputs. (And is wrong).

Last last last: Go Patriots.

 

[DarrylStingley]

Just read about Brady.

Bolden, Slater, HooMan, Blount, Fells.....whomever....small potatoes!

 

[Bruins29]

Weird that you would call another poster who you do not know at all a troll and then a casual fan. And then a straw man!

Hey, we're not all gonna be buddies and I'm sure you're a great guy otherwise. I think you should lighten up on the accusations but if you choose to ignore that, no problem, you have the right to post whatever you want, even if it makes little sense.

Go Pats and keep Brandon Bolden!

Yeah I called you a strawman LOL Wow! Did that hurt your feelings?

 

[Bruins29]

I'm just saying that anyone who claims that a fan who has a different view than him about Jackie Slater is therefore a casual fan is making a judgment with painfully few inputs. (And is wrong).

Last last last: Go Patriots.

And you can keep stating over and over. Still dosent make it so because you are distorting what really happened. Suggesting someone may be just a casual fan because of something that seemed so obvious is not the same thing as what you keep railing on about

 

[Bruins29]

I think Slater's special team stuff talents are a bit overrated and the locker room stuff is not that relevant and over done.

Have you ever played competitive sports?

IF you think as I do (putting aside whether I'm right; I know you think that I am not), then that he's a crappy WR becomes a little more relevant, especially given that the Pats sometimes use him there. That Brady attempt to him in the 2011 AFC Champ game still gives me the willies, even though that was much more on Tom.
.

The problem is that Matthew Slater hasnt had enough snaps at WR for this to even be a remotely relevant issue. Sure if he was being used in key situation I can see an issue. The guys sees the field when its either an emergency or garbage time. Its not like Slater is taking away snaps from anyone. And, he is actually one of the fastest guys on the team. Why not throw him out there for a fly route now and then.

As stated to you. Special Teamers need to be qualified as some position. Washington is a RB. Slater is a WR. Cole is a CB. You are making this into something it is not and for no reason.

 

[DarrylStingley]

Yeah I called you a strawman LOL Wow! Did that hurt your feelings?

Humor man. I know it was a strong man argument. :rocker:

 

[DarrylStingley]

Have you ever played competitive sports?




The problem is that Matthew Slater hasnt had enough snaps at WR for this to even be a remotely relevant issue. Sure if he was being used in key situation I can see an issue. The guys sees the field when its either an emergency or garbage time. Its not like Slater is taking away snaps from anyone. And, he is actually one of the fastest guys on the team. Why not throw him out there for a fly route now and then.

As stated to you. Special Teamers need to be qualified as some position. Washington is a RB. Slater is a WR. Cole is a CB. You are making this into something it is not and for no reason.

Yes, like most humans, I have played competitive sports. Have you?

And as someone who has played competitive sports, I have a view that having really good players is huge and that having really good locker room guys is often an overstated thing. I know, since we don't agree, you are going to view this negatively but guess what? It's possible to have different opinions! Strange...but true.

Hey, I disagree with you and others about just how good Slater is on Teams. My opinion of him is lower there than others and apparently yours.

As I said, my assessment could be off. In addition to having played sports and being a serious fan, I am sometimes very wrong.

But if my opinion is correct (a big if, maybe), then I would submit that his suckitude at WR becomes more relvant. This hypothetical way of looking at this is not, I believe, all that complex.

Have a really excellent day.

 

[Bruins29]

Yes, like most humans, I have played competitive sports. Have you?

Most humans have played competitive sports? I dont know if I would be that presumptuous but ok. I have played It just seems that you discount a locker room presence quite a lot when that can be a huge factor in the chemistry and attitude of a team.

And as someone who has played competitive sports, I have a view that having really good players is huge and that having really good locker room guys is often an overstated thing. I know, since we don't agree, you are going to view this negatively but guess what? It's possible to have different opinions! Strange...but true.

First of all I think Bill Bellichick would laugh if anyone asked him if a great locker room is an overstated thing. I mean the guy just jettisoned 3 guys (who were not bad players mind you) because apparently among other things they were not his type of locker room guys. So while you have a right to your opinion, its the complete opposite what any professional coach would tell you.
Just like you can say Tom Brady sucks. Sure, its an opinion. Dosent make it true.

Hey, I disagree with you and others about just how good Slater is on Teams. My opinion of him is lower there than others and apparently yours.

As I said, my assessment could be off. In addition to having played sports and being a serious fan, I am sometimes very wrong.

But if my opinion is correct (a big if, maybe), then I would submit that his suckitude at WR becomes more relvant. This hypothetical way of looking at this is not, I believe, all that complex.

Have a really excellent day.

it is fine if you think Slater is not all that on Special Teams. I suppose him being a Pro Bowler at it dosent make a difference to you. Your assessment (according to the most knowledgeable football people in the world) is wrong. But maybe they are all wrong and you are right. Is that possible? I mean isnt making the pro bowl enough?

And again his ""sucktittude"" at WR isn't relevant at all in any conversation we could have. It dosent matter. You saying it over and over isnt going to make it matter more.

 

[Bruins29]

Humor man. I know it was a strong man argument. :rocker:

Do you know what strawman means?

 

[Sciz]

Seems fitting that Belichick had this to say of Slater as a gunner today in his press conference...

Matt’s one of the best in the league, and I think he has a lot of the qualities that we were talking about. Anytime they have to double somebody, that makes one less guy they can use somewhere else in the return. He almost always draws two guys out there unless they’re in a 10-man, 8-man rush, but most of the time there’s two guys out there. He draws a lot of double-teams and deservedly so – he does an outstanding job of covering punts. Like I said, it’s a tough position to play, but he’s got a lot of the qualities that we talked about to be good and he does a good job for us.

 

[mgteich]

Slater also cannot play RG. This fact matters as much as whether Slater can play WR. Slater is one of the best special teamers in the NFL. Perhaps other teams might not value special teamers, but the patriots clearly do.

Most humans have played competitive sports? I dont know if I would be that presumptuous but ok. I have played It just seems that you discount a locker room presence quite a lot when that can be a huge factor in the chemistry and attitude of a team.

First of all I think Bill Bellichick would laugh if anyone asked him if a great locker room is an overstated thing. I mean the guy just jettisoned 3 guys (who were not bad players mind you) because apparently among other things they were not his type of locker room guys. So while you have a right to your opinion, its the complete opposite what any professional coach would tell you.
Just like you can say Tom Brady sucks. Sure, its an opinion. Dosent make it true.




it is fine if you think Slater is not all that on Special Teams. I suppose him being a Pro Bowler at it dosent make a difference to you. Your assessment (according to the most knowledgeable football people in the world) is wrong. But maybe they are all wrong and you are right. Is that possible? I mean isnt making the pro bowl enough?

And again his ""sucktittude"" at WR isn't relevant at all in any conversation we could have. It dosent matter. You saying it over and over isnt going to make it matter more.

 

[Bruins29]

Slater also cannot play RG. This fact matters as much as whether Slater can play WR. Slater is one of the best special teamers in the NFL. Perhaps other teams might not value special teamers, but the patriots clearly do.

Yep! And coincidentally they have been the best run franchise for a long time. Connection?

 

[ATippett56]

Special teams personnel notes - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

Ditto for second-year running back Brandon Bolden, who showed up on the top kickoff return, kickoff coverage, punt return and punt team units. That reflects his place as a "Big 4" player on special teams. A lot of chatter about how Bolden might be affected by LeGarrette Blount, but part of the reason why I still think he makes the club is his role in the kicking game.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Yes, like most humans, I have played competitive sports. Have you?

And as someone who has played competitive sports, I have a view that having really good players is huge and that having really good locker room guys is often an overstated thing. I know, since we don't agree, you are going to view this negatively but guess what? It's possible to have different opinions! Strange...but true.

Hey, I disagree with you and others about just how good Slater is on Teams. My opinion of him is lower there than others and apparently yours.

As I said, my assessment could be off. In addition to having played sports and being a serious fan, I am sometimes very wrong.

But if my opinion is correct (a big if, maybe), then I would submit that his suckitude at WR becomes more relvant. This hypothetical way of looking at this is not, I believe, all that complex.

Have a really excellent day.

Wait, now you're disagreeing re: how good Slater is on special teams, rather than the importance of special teams? Because if your claim is now "Slater isn't as good on special teams as people are claiming he is", then that's simply wrong. On what basis are you reaching that conclusion? Can you name one player who's better on kick and punt coverage than Slater is?

There's a ton of evidence that Slater is awesome at special teams. Aside from just watching him play, Belichick spoke at length (by his standards) about exactly that earlier today. There's a reason why he's been an All Pro for two years running. I can't think of any evidence at all to the contrary, which makes me curious as to how you made that call.

And again, what makes you think that his suckitude at WR even matters? He isn't a wide receiver. Might as well say that the Pats should cut Gostkowski because he can't play linebacker.

 

[BradyFTW!]

These are fair points (both of your posts).

I think Slater's special team stuff talents are a bit overrated and the locker room stuff is not that relevant and over done. I may be wrong about both; just my gut from having watched him on teams over the years and wondered why he got so much attention for them.

IF you think as I do (putting aside whether I'm right; I know you think that I am not), then that he's a crappy WR becomes a little more relevant, especially given that the Pats sometimes use him there. That Brady attempt to him in the 2011 AFC Champ game still gives me the willies, even though that was much more on Tom.

But I get it, the conventional view is that Slater is an elite ST player.

As to Izzo, my point wasn't that he's Izzo now. It was that at some point, even elite ST players like Izzo become expendable.

Last, I take your point about not comparing an elite ST player to someone who will be inactive on many game days. That's fair. It depends on whether one buys Slater as elite or not, and I know that most do, but if you don't, the calculus is a little different.

Last last, I don't claim to be a better or more intense fan than others here (or other folks I don't know)....anyone spending time in this thread is likely a pretty invested fan. I'm just saying that anyone who claims that a fan who has a different view than him about Jackie Slater is therefore a casual fan is making a judgment with painfully few inputs. (And is wrong).

Last last last: Go Patriots.

Izzo wasn't cut because Belichick decided that elite special teamers are expendable. He was cut because he was no longer an elite special teamer. Belichick will always have spots on the roster for guys who are as good as Izzo in his prime or Slater in his prime (which is right now). If Slater was in decline, you'd have a point, Izzo was cut at age 35, and Slater is 27. You must realize how little sense that comparison makes. It'll be at least a few more years before we see an appreciable decline in Slater's athleticism, and even then it'll probably be a couple more years before he stops being worth a roster spot.

Also, not sure if that was directed at me, but I never claimed you were a casual fan. I think that how closely people follow the time tends to become pretty self-evident once they've been posting for a while, and there's really no point in commenting on it anyway. The points that people make should be argued on their own merits.

 

[supafly]

Special teams personnel notes - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

As much as I'd love to be able to save another roster spot by only going with 4 RB's (and Winn on the PS), I'm also not ready to let Bolden go either. I just think his importance on ST's and his hard running ability may warrant a longer look. On top of that, I haven't fully jumped on the "Blount is a definite lock, and could challenge Ridley for the top spot" group either.

The guy was squarely on the bubble less than a week ago, fumbles every 43 times he touches the ball historically, and just didn't convince me with one run vs the PHI Eagle's 3rd string defense.

This is what's known as having a "good problem," like when it's time to get new brakepads for your Mercedes-Benz. Belichick can sort it out. That's why he makes good money, right?

 

[ATippett56]

This is what's known as having a "good problem," like when it's time to get new brakepads for your Mercedes-Benz. Belichick can sort it out. That's why he makes good money, right?

If next season is a consideration in the evaluation process, the following players will be unrestricted free agents next season:

Julian Edelman
Michael Hoomanawanui
LeGarrette Blount
Leon Washington
Tyronne Green
Will Svitek
Ryan Wendell
Marcus Benard
Jermaine Cunningham
Rob Ninkovich
Dane Fletcher
Brandon Spikes
Marquice Cole
Aqib Talib
Danny Aiken
Zoltan Mesko

Official Website of the New England Patriots | Team - Players

 

[DarrylStingley]

Izzo wasn't cut because Belichick decided that elite special teamers are expendable. He was cut because he was no longer an elite special teamer. Belichick will always have spots on the roster for guys who are as good as Izzo in his prime or Slater in his prime (which is right now). If Slater was in decline, you'd have a point, Izzo was cut at age 35, and Slater is 27. You must realize how little sense that comparison makes. It'll be at least a few more years before we see an appreciable decline in Slater's athleticism, and even then it'll probably be a couple more years before he stops being worth a roster spot.

Also, not sure if that was directed at me, but I never claimed you were a casual fan. I think that how closely people follow the time tends to become pretty self-evident once they've been posting for a while, and there's really no point in commenting on it anyway. The points that people make should be argued on their own merits.

Fair enough. I'm probably not giving slater his due.

Slater, to me, was just one example or one player where I would look and consider relative to bolden. My main point -- which got a little bit lost in another poster foolishly calling me a troll, saying I was a casual fan and droning on about straw man arguments -- was and is that bolden is talented enough that the pats should find a way to keep him.

In truth, I don't know who should go so that he can stay. Slater is, in fairness, not a good target. He does suck as a receiver but I take the point that it doesn't matter.

So I apologize to those who have chosen to keep this discussion civil and point out the error of my posts in a normal way....the slater side discussion was a waste of time. But after seeing Brandon break off that 25 yard run and be the one bright spot on the pathetic Tebow offense, I sure as hell hope he's not deemed expendable. The man has game.

If forced to target players I'd cut in order to keep him, I would note Tebow, Hooman, Fells, Ballard, Tavon Wilson and maybe Blount.

We shall see....

 

[Oswlek]

Fair enough. I'm probably not giving slater his due.

Slater, to me, was just one example or one player where I would look and consider relative to bolden. My main point -- which got a little bit lost in another poster foolishly calling me a troll, saying I was a casual fan and droning on about straw man arguments -- was and is that bolden is talented enough that the pats should find a way to keep him.

In truth, I don't know who should go so that he can stay. Slater is, in fairness, not a good target. He does suck as a receiver but I take the point that it doesn't matter.

So I apologize to those who have chosen to keep this discussion civil and point out the error of my posts in a normal way....the slater side discussion was a waste of time. But after seeing Brandon break off that 25 yard run and be the one bright spot on the pathetic Tebow offense, I sure as hell hope he's not deemed expendable. The man has game.

If forced to target players I'd cut in order to keep him, I would note Tebow, Hooman, Fells, Ballard, Tavon Wilson and maybe Blount.

We shall see....

Wait. Fells, Ballard and Blount cut to keep Bolden?

 

[DarrylStingley]

Wait. Fells, Ballard and Blount cut to keep Bolden?

I didn't mean all of them. I meant I would consider cutting each of them. There would be no reason to cut them all.....