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The 2013 Prospect Thread

"hand usage is terrible. i want to see some examples of this, or i want to know where you read that. it might not be great, but i doubt its terrible as you say. he needs better coaching to develop as a pass rusher. you never hear any pass rushers come out of the pac 12(outside of usc). he cant be too tight in his hipsif he runs with recievr and tight ends. idk many guys that can effectively play on all 3 levels of the field. if you want tight in the hips look at brandon spikes
I didn't read it. I saw it. A quote from my notes, a result of 4 games of film on him so far:
"Dion Jordan #96 senior defensive end excellent height terrible bulk for a defensive end at 246lbs but too tall to play 3-4 outside linebacker below average speed for size solid numbers 42 tackles and 7.5 sacks in 2011 missed a game due to injury big guy very skinny decent speed often plays linebacker no strength poor against the run could improve hand usage fullbacks can beat him one on one against the run pretty quick lines up all over the place I hate scouting Oregon jersey numbers are unreadable not an every down player makes plays on special teams terrific football speed really fast good straight line speed excellent quickness easy to confuse his jersey with Josh Kaddu who is #56 average athlete reacts quickly to the snap good acceleration mediocre long speed average fluidity plays hard has no pass rush moves very long arms doesn’t change directions with ease will overpursue and fail to collapse the pocket rarely a down lineman must improve hand usage good lower body strength poor upper body strength always lines up in a 2 point stance and always blitzes might lack quickness from 3 point stance not much range for size some hip tightness below average instincts and on field awareness doesn’t disguise his assignment very aggressive can’t use his hands to shed blocks can’t get good position toward the quarterback raw Aldon Smith that sucks versus the run poor instincts decent in zone coverage poor balance lacks strength short arms for size but still crazy tall poor instincts against the run subbed out a lot on running downs some hip tightness reacts to the snap quickly but mediocre acceleration and quickness the quick guy may have been Kaddu pretty quick for his size though"
That's my source. As for his hips, pretty much all taller players are tight in the hips, and he is no exception. Neither are the tight ends he covers. He can't cover receivers, but when he's up against a tight end, it's tight hips vs. tight hips. His height and length get the job done.
 
thats a bit harsh. hes a great passblocker, and hes a pretty good run blocker. awareness in PB is great as well but the RB not so great

He looked lost in the 2011 Louisville game. However, he did look smarter against Western Kentucky. I may have been a bit harsh there.
 
Werner is extremely overrated among people with internet access. There is absolutely no way he will be a top 10 pick. All of his 6.5 sacks have come against Murray State, Savannah State, and Wake Forest. He's bad against the run. In 6 games he has 13 tackles on run plays. That's obviously not going to cut it. His strength is overrated, he can't disengage from blocks, and his instincts need a lot of work. He's a guy who is overrated by the media, but I'm sure most scouts have him as a late first rounder.

you overrate stats. look at marcell dareus. he never had great stats
 
And I gave you my other 2, Taylor and Bass.
I'll keep my eye on Devin Taylor, DE South Carolina for the rest of the NCAA football season since I'm a big fan of the SEC.
 
Not a fan of Gholston:

I don't disagree with that post. Everything that guy said was true. But I really think Gholston will get back to his old self. He has regressed this year, but he looked really good last year.
 
you overrate stats. look at marcell dareus. he never had great stats
I only use stats to support my argument. If you want, I'll give you my notes on Werner
"Bjoern Werner #95 junior 4-3 defensive end average height above average bulk for 4-3 defensive end solid speed got 37 tackles and 7 sacks in 2011 along with a shocking 8 pass breakups and an interception lines up pretty close to the neutral zone always ready to breakup passes decent with his hand usage some quickness poor instincts will fall for play actions strongside 5 technique solid pass rusher gets ideal leverage below average speed plays hard good strength loves getting good leverage to the outside with the speed rush some lateral agility always in position for cutback pursuit good anticipation of the snap and above average acceleration from Germany pretty quick really long arms decent with his hand usage and body control good with his hand usage poor instincts not much against the run can’t make tackles in traffic susceptible to guard traps and pulls could be more aggressive against the run poor instincts can deflect passes has good length good athlete deflects lots of passes very raw instincts against the run improved quickness fluidity and flexibility in 2012 but still terrible instincts against the run mediocre strength fast can do a lot of things against the pass decent with his hand usage could improve strength needs to get better leverage against the run really lacks strength can’t get inside leverage can’t even get leverage even against backs looks overrated constantly overpursues against the run struggles against athletic tackles struggles to disengage from blocks can make a tackle but that’s currently his only asset against the run below average tackler could be a more physical tackler mediocre body control"
 
Mackenzie—if you have an answer to this question, I'd love to hear it:

Let's say Bill Belichick asked you to pick a QB he could get late/as an UDFA. Who would you recommend?
 

OTOH, there's this recent profile from NE Patriots' Draft:

Michigan State defensive end William Gholston still has some concerns with his game, but he also has as much upside as any potential prospect for the 2013 NFL draft. How is Gholston’s draft stock shaping up and where does he stand in regards to other pass rushers in the 2013 NFL Draft class?

Gholston has the size of a five-technique defensive end for a 3-4 defense, with listed measurables of 6’7’’ and 278 pounds, but he is a terrific pass-rusher with an explosive burst and the athleticism of an outside linebacker. That combination of size and athletic ability is rare, and gives Gholston the potential to be an elite player at the next level.

The most important trait for a top defensive end prospect is pass-rushing skill, and Gholston has that. As mentioned, he has a terrific get-off and acceleration for a defensive lineman of his size. He also does a very good job of integrating spin and swim moves into his game, and those techniques make him one of the toughest pass-rushers to block in all of college football.

Gholston has the speed, quickness and balance to beat offensive tackles around the edge. He also does a very good job of going to his inside and taking on multiple blockers, often splitting them to bring heavy pressure into the middle of the backfield. His length, strength and block-shedding ability are all major assets to his pass-rushing game, making him more than just a rusher who blitzes off the edge with speed and burst.

As a result, Gholston is also a very good run stopper. Gholston is very good at going from outside to inside to fill running lanes and stop runners, while he can also penetrate into the backfield from the edge and stop runners before they ever get started. Gholston’s physical measurables lend themselves well to him being a very good run-stopping defensive end going forward to the NFL.

The biggest question surrounding Gholston, however, is whether he can be a three-down lineman in the NFL. While he is a big playmaker when on the field, both in pass and run defense, he does not play every snap at Michigan State, which raises questions about his stamina, and if he is going to be a high first-round draft pick, a team will be expecting a player who can be in for nearly every snap.

The other issue around Gholston is figuring out where he fits best within a defense, especially in a 3-4 scheme. In some ways, this is a good problem to have: Gholston has all the athleticism necessary to play outside linebacker in a 3-4 and be a premier pass-rusher, but he also has the size and interior penetration ability to play inside as a defensive end in that scheme.

However, Gholston would be playing an entirely new position at linebacker, where he would have to learn how to stand up, drop and cover, which could very well cause him to bust like his cousin, Vernon Gholston, did with the New York Jets after being the No. 6 overall pick out of Ohio State. At defensive end, his point-of-attack strength would be called into question, although his blend of size, athleticism and interior pass-rush ability could, at best, make him a taller version of Justin Smith.

In truth, Gholston’s best fit would be in a 4-3 defensive scheme, where he can line up at his natural position of defensive end, but could also line up as a defensive tackle in pass-rushing situation to bring interior pressure. A big, athletic and block-shedding playmaker, Gholston’s game is reminiscent of that of New York Giants defensive lineman Justin Tuck.

Overall, Gholston has the skill set to be a star in a defensive front seven, regardless of where he lines up, with skills he has played in a number of dominant performances. However, Gholston is not always dominant, and some inconsistency keeps him from currently being a top-5 overall prospect in the 2013 draft class.

Nonetheless, his rare measurables and skill set give him upside that makes him worthy of a top-10 draft choice. Florida State’s Bjoern Werner is the best defensive end eligible for the 2013 draft, but even with standout LSU defensive ends Barkevious Mingo and Sam Montgomery in the mix, Gholston currently ranks as my No. 2 defensive end in the class, right on the heels of Werner.

Gholston would be a great choice for a team with a 4-3 defensive scheme picking in the top half of the 2013 NFL draft, and for whom upgrading at defensive end is a top need. Potential fits for Gholston could be the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, New Orleans Saints, Tennessee Titans, Oakland Raiders, Cleveland Browns, Carolina Panthers or Minnesota Vikings.

Evaluating the Current Draft Stock of Michigan State DE William Gholston | NEPatriotsDraft.com - 2013 NFL Draft

Let's face it: we're not going to find a JJ Watt clone with perfect size, athleticism, motor, character and level of competition at the end of the 2nd round. Guys are going to have question marks regarding one or more of those issues. Gholston has elite size and atheticism and comes form a top program, but has questions about his conistency and character Devin Taylor has questions about his motor and consistency. David Bass has limited film and questions about his level of competition. Tank Carradine will probably not last that long, but if he does it will be because of questions about whether he is a one year wonder. Margus Hunt (who I should have included on my list above) has questions about his lateral movement, productivity, and age. But all of those guys have tremendous potential and upside - not disimilar to where Watt was 2 years ago, when he was a raw basketball/TE convert. Give me one of Jesse Williams or Dion Jordan with our 1st pick and one of Tank Carradine/Margus Hunt/Devin Taylor/William Gholston/David Bass with our 2nd pick or later and I'll be very happy.
 
I only use stats to support my argument. If you want, I'll give you my notes on Werner
"Bjoern Werner #95 junior 4-3 defensive end average height above average bulk for 4-3 defensive end solid speed got 37 tackles and 7 sacks in 2011 along with a shocking 8 pass breakups and an interception lines up pretty close to the neutral zone always ready to breakup passes decent with his hand usage some quickness poor instincts will fall for play actions strongside 5 technique solid pass rusher gets ideal leverage below average speed plays hard good strength loves getting good leverage to the outside with the speed rush some lateral agility always in position for cutback pursuit good anticipation of the snap and above average acceleration from Germany pretty quick really long arms decent with his hand usage and body control good with his hand usage poor instincts not much against the run can’t make tackles in traffic susceptible to guard traps and pulls could be more aggressive against the run poor instincts can deflect passes has good length good athlete deflects lots of passes very raw instincts against the run improved quickness fluidity and flexibility in 2012 but still terrible instincts against the run mediocre strength fast can do a lot of things against the pass decent with his hand usage could improve strength needs to get better leverage against the run really lacks strength can’t get inside leverage can’t even get leverage even against backs looks overrated constantly overpursues against the run struggles against athletic tackles struggles to disengage from blocks can make a tackle but that’s currently his only asset against the run below average tackler could be a more physical tackler mediocre body control"

Paragraph - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
In your opinion, who is the best all around 4-3 defensive end prospect (must be able to set the edge in the running game) that would be available at the end of the second round?

Tank Carradine if he lasts that long. Maybe Devin Taylor. Maybe Savid Bass as a dark horse, but haven't seen enough to judge, so I'm going solely on Mackenzie's one game appraisal.

I have the "Ansah", the Ziggy Ansah

Ezekiel "Ziggy" Ansah Short Spot - YouTube
 
Think about someone like Trent Cole who was 236 at his combine but is now 270 and is only 6'2" not 6'6"-6'7". That's where I see Jordan eventually.

Trent Cole - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm not sure why you'd spend a high pick on a project, and expecting someone to gain 30+ pounds in order to be effective is a project. I'm not sure he has the frame/metabolism to gain/maintain that weight, he looks pretty slender to me.
 
I'm not sure why you'd spend a high pick on a project, and expecting someone to gain 30+ pounds in order to be effective is a project. I'm not sure he has the frame/metabolism to gain/maintain that weight, he looks pretty slender to me.

i completely understand what you are saying, however look at chandler jones. listed at 260, and hes perfectly built. very lean for 260, being 6'5 has something to do with that. jordan is listed in the mid 240's. so in my opinion were only asking him to gain about 15 pounds. and he no doubt has the frame to put on 15-20 pounds
 
i completely understand what you are saying, however look at chandler jones. listed at 260, and hes perfectly built. very lean for 260, being 6'5 has something to do with that. jordan is listed in the mid 240's. so in my opinion were only asking him to gain about 15 pounds. and he no doubt has the frame to put on 15-20 pounds

My issue with the idea of converting him to a DE is that he doesn’t seem nearly strong enough to take on a tackle, in the footage I watched he seems to be able to get around a tackle here and there but absolutely cannot go through him, I don’t see how another 20lbs will enable him to do that at the pro level.

I’d rather go with him as he is and use in a DB/LB capacity. Think about how much impact a TE like Gronk/Jimmy Graham can have in the passing game, I’d like to see Jordan as a guy who can cover those TEs and negate that impact.
 
My no2 desired safety (after LaMarcus Joyner) had a good game against LSU

The two players who helped their stock the most were Gators safety Matt Elam and running back Mike Gillislee.

Elam was all over the field for Florida. He was laying wood and dishing out punishing hits on LSU ball-carriers from start to finish. Elam flew up to the line on one of the first plays of the game and blasted a running back at the line of scrimmage. In one instance, he was over aggressive with a dumb late hit well out of bounds.

Elam made a huge play in the third quarter, chasing down LSU wide receiver Odell Beckham after the Tigers hit him for a bomb. Elam ripped out the ball as he tackled Beckham. The Gators recovered the fumble, and the clutch play negated a 56-yard gain inside the Florida 30-yard line. Elam had a bone-rattling hit just a bit later to stuff a run. He was very disruptive on LSU's final drives to help the Gators finish out the win.

Elam's official stat line may not have big numbers, but he was Florida's defensive MVP in knocking off the fourth-ranked team in the nation. Elam looks like a second-round pick, but if the junior maintains this level play for the rest of the season, he could break into first round consideration.

WalterFootball.com: 2013 NFL Draft: College Football Game Recaps - Week 6
 
Last edited:
Mackenzie—if you have an answer to this question, I'd love to hear it:

Let's say Bill Belichick asked you to pick a QB he could get late/as an UDFA. Who would you recommend?

Brad Sorensen of Southern Utah. Sorensen's big problem is that he has heavy feet. And I mean heavy feet. It's like the guy has blocks of lead in his cleats. Cinder blocks are tied around his ankles. His feet are so heavy that he honestly can't make a throw to a receiver at an angle 30 degrees or less relative to the line of scrimmage. Beyond that? The guy is close to a perfect quarterback. Very accurate. Probably could throw 60 yards while sneezing. Solid mechanics. Good feel for the game, very composed in the pocket. Good decision maker. Again, very limited by his feet, but, beyond that, perfect.
 
My issue with the idea of converting him to a DE is that he doesn’t seem nearly strong enough to take on a tackle, in the footage I watched he seems to be able to get around a tackle here and there but absolutely cannot go through him, I don’t see how another 20lbs will enable him to do that at the pro level.

I’d rather go with him as he is and use in a DB/LB capacity. Think about how much impact a TE like Gronk/Jimmy Graham can have in the passing game, I’d like to see Jordan as a guy who can cover those TEs and negate that impact.

I agree with all of this. He has the potential to do an awesome job covering tight ends.
 
Brad Sorensen of Southern Utah. Sorensen's big problem is that he has heavy feet. And I mean heavy feet. It's like the guy has blocks of lead in his cleats. Cinder blocks are tied around his ankles. His feet are so heavy that he honestly can't make a throw to a receiver at an angle 30 degrees or less relative to the line of scrimmage. Beyond that? The guy is close to a perfect quarterback. Very accurate. Probably could throw 60 yards while sneezing. Solid mechanics. Good feel for the game, very composed in the pocket. Good decision maker. Again, very limited by his feet, but, beyond that, perfect.

Oh yes!!

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...3-2013-prospect-thread-page4.html#post3035239
 
TRANSCRIPT: Mike Vrabel’s Media Statement on Tuesday 4/21
MORSE: What Will the Patriots Do in the Draft?
MORSE: Patriots Prospects and 30 Visits
Patriots News 04-19, Countdown To Draft Day
MORSE: Patriots Mock Draft 6 – A Week Before the Draft
TRANSCRIPT: Eliot Wolf Pre-Draft Press Conference 4/13
Patriots News 04-12, What To Watch For In The NFL Draft
MORSE: Pre-Draft Patriots News and Notes
MORSE: Patriots Mock Draft 5
MORSE: Patriots Mock Draft 5
Mark Morse
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