Tebow, Blount, Edelman

[Concerned_Citizen]

Elway still might have traded him away to bring in a pocket passer as he's not overly fond of dual threat/running QBs

Don't agree there. I think Elway would be perfectly fine if he had a "dual threat" QB. If he thought he had one. But I can't think of anything more worthless on an offense than a QB who really struggles with the passing game.

Have to ask, do you have even an elementary understanding of statistics ? I mean, I'm no rocket scientist or graduate level student when it comes to stats, but I at least have a basic fundamental understanding of them.

Absolutely. But there are variables that have to be considered and context has to be given. Comparing the numbers straight up when there are 21 other guys on the field at any given time and saying the cherry picked stats you only want looked at proves a given QB is a good player comparible to others is simply assenine. It might be a good gauge on who "might" be good coming out of college, but even that is no indicator of who will succeed.

I just don't take numbers at face value when I sat there and watched every game Tebow played in the NFL as a starter, and he simply didn't pass the eye test. It isn't just because he is different from the norm either. There was a lot I saw out there that he really struggled with, and in my opinion he REALLY hurt the offensive production. He had his moments, but in the end, he was not really any better overall than some lucky 2nd or third stringer that got some lucky breaks.

The reason you want to take stats at face value like a one on one tennis stat comparison is because you think it makes your case that Tebow is as good as any of them. Doesn't work for me in a TEAM sport with 22 guys on the field. They just don't paint an accurate picture as to who the better player is. Tom Brady could be on a team of first graders and Justin Bieber can play with the Patriots offense of 2007.. If the stats came out to about even, am I supposed to believe the QBs are equal? Of course not. I apply that same train of thought to some stat sheet posted while some propagandist tries to spin it and tell me that it means he is good while the bad stats don't mean a thing. You've ALWAYS cracked me up with that.

Whatever you say sunshine.

You use that word a lot.... are you British?

I think that if they didn't bring in Tamme and Stokely, and if they had left the running of the offense to McCoy, then no, that offense wouldn't have been close to as good as it was last year.

I think it would have been a lot closer to what it was in 2012 than it was in 2011. I truly think the gap between the performance of the WRs between the two seasons is no doubt the QB. They probably aren't as good as the overall ranking suggested in 2012 and probably not as bad as they ranked in 2011 when near the bottom. they were somewhere in between. an average QB would get more out of them than Tebow, but nowhere near as much as a Manning type that has made a career out of performing surgery on defenses. I don't think Tamme and Stokley made THAT BIG a difference between dead last in almost all major passing categories to, what was it, 4th overall?

f you want to get even further into it, if you magically put Manning on the 2011 Denver Broncos in place of Tebow, with Mike McCoy designing the offense and calling the plays, it's hard to say how much better their record would have been. The Pats definitely would have beaten them both times. Hell, the Steelers probably would have beaten them.

So you REALLY think Manning couldn't have beaten the depleted Steelers, but Tebow took the Broncos somewhere in that season where Manning couldn't have? Wow.....

Again, DUH. Are you at all familiar with PFM and his record as a QB ? Of course he was an upgrade at QB. Isn't that kind of indicated by my statements earlier that "of course, they brought in PFM" ?

but you seem to think the impact was closer to minimal, that Tebow wasn't that far away. Wrong wrong wrong.

Manning improved the team across the board. Not only did he score more points... a lot more... on a regular basis, but he actually stayed on the field too. That gave the defense a break, and didn't put as much pressure on them. The receivers got better because he was actually hitting them in stride on passes rather than forcing recievers to stop to catch balls thrown behind them or at their shoelaces... if the ball was even in the same zip code. Offensive line got better because the QB wasn't just as unpredictable to them as they were the defenders. Yes, the upgrade was THAT HUGE.

We were discussing that offense being one of the very best in the NFL. Peyton alone did not do that.

Pretty close. There were only a couple of guys added to that and I don't think their impact was anywhere near what a real QB could do for an offense. Sorry, but Tebow was the 11th best player on that starting offense, and we upgraded the position to someone who was the #1 guy on the offense. Now, you might THINK Tebow will be that guy someday, but he sure as hell wasn't in 2011. Wasn't in 2012 from the bench. Not likely to be anywher neare that any time soon either.

It's not what you meant to say, but that is clearly what you said.

Not the first time you misrepresented what I was saying. Won't be the last.

Just for grins and giggles, go ahead and tell us all which other backup QBs would have gone 7-4 or better with the Broncos in 2011, then would have beaten the Steelers in the playoffs.

Don't know about beating the Steelers, even though I believe much of that was a combination of dumb luck (like many of the "miracles," and Pittsburgh forming a terrible game plan. Bought just a little too much into the idea that Thomas didn't need to be covered. But just about any QB in the league and most of the starters could have gotten us the 16 points needed for most of those games. Even Orton. I mean, Yates in Houston had a pretty good run too, but nobody took the stats and said he was ranked as the 15th best QB in the league or whatever their official ranking was.

Heck, while you are at it, go and tell us if you think Orton would have gone 7-4 or better if he had been left as the starter.

Probably. The schedule got MUCH easier, and Tebow had no more luck against Detroit or New England than Orton had against Green Bay. 6 games, the Broncos held teams to 15 points or less during the Tebow era. Orton is 23-2 when that happens. So there is 7 wins right there. All Orton needs to do is beat Buffalo or Kansas City at the end to make it the 8-8 record they got into the playoffs with.

I have little doubt they would have had more than ZERO points with 5 minutes to go against Miami, and therefore wouldn't have needed the miracle against the powerhouse (yes that was sarcasm) 0-5 team. Defense was getting off the field, and I think Orton stays on longer and at least gets into field goal range, (Something tebow rarely did when the Broncos punted 8 - 9 times per game. He didn't rack up any more TDs per game either.

Whatever you say sunshine.

You use that word a lot.... are you British?

Good lord, what a joke. Tebow posted 23, 24 and 28 pts in his first 3 starts his rookie year.

He averaged 18 per game in his sophomore year. That is counting the couple where the offense somehow got 30+ points in two of the games. Plus, this is why taking stats at face value like you just did is stupid IMO. You just attributed those scores to Tebow himself. but one of those TDs in his rookie year was an interception return and another was from a kick return. Yeah, I know, I know... it was all due to the inspiration of Tebow's aura.

Looks like your numbers are off a bit sunshine.

You use that word a lot.... are you British?

 

[Concerned_Citizen]

Case in point: one of the biggest reasons why the Pats limited the high powered 2003-04 Colts offenses is a very strong running game and their ability to convert on 3rd down keeping Peyton Manning off the field and kill clock. And that's a good thing.

That's pretty much my point as to why I thought Tebow was so detrimental to the Broncos offense. Dude just couldn't stay on the field. Led the league in three and outs, and had SEVERAL drives end after just one first down. Saw Brady get the ball back for another drive, getting *****smacked across the field by the Pats was pretty much what I expected under those circumstances.

But Tebowmaniacs somehow don't seem to see the problem there. Unless they divert the criticism to the coach for his inability to hit receivers. They actually think none of that is a good correlation to winning, but looking at some stat with one eye closed, and standing on their head while looking at it in a mirror after spinning 3 times is a better indication of how good he really is.

....Which somehow makes him "Steve Young." (The popular comparison for Tebow fanatics.) He's more of a Bobby Douglas.

 

[Concerned_Citizen]

Why do you have an agenda against Tim Tebow? You don't think he's a good football player and that's fine. But why go on and on about how bad Tebow is? Tim's not a flawless football player, but he's much better than you give him credit for.

Errrrr... no he isn't. I think he's a third stringer at best and maybe a second on a really lousy team with no QB depth, and that is pretty much what he was treated like this offseason. A third string talent that isn't anything special. That is pretty much where he sits with the Pats now.

...and NOBODY is a flawless football player. But it helps a lot more if you don't have so damn many of them. In the passing game, Tebow has too many that need to be corrected before I take him seriously as being a QB or anything close to a starter. Right now, it remains to be seen.

 

[Dutchmaster617]

What a stupid thread, Edelman is one of our best and NE experienced offensive guys who can also return punts and what not. Oh he is also the Welker replacement.

After Gronk he is the last receiver I want gone.

 

[Brady6]

What a stupid thread, Edelman is one of our best and NE experienced offensive guys who can also return punts and what not. Oh he is also the Welker replacement.

After Gronk he is the last receiver I want gone.

That would only make this thread one third stupid.

 

[Joker]

I think that this Concerned Citizen is the guy in the green headband....after he's finished with the Telambs...gruesome beatdown in this thread.

 

[Potzer]

I think that this Concerned Citizen is the guy in the green headband....after he's finished with the Telambs...gruesome beatdown in this thread.

Killing Sheep? Lemme re-cap the past year of interactions with CC.

"Potzer" I like watching TT play football and hope he gets a shot.

"CC" Tebow is the worst QB in the NFL. He can't throw the football.

"Potzer" blah blah blah tired explanations and pointless stat crunching.

"CC" Tebow is the worst QB in the NFL. Just look how many 3 and outs he had.

So, if by killed, you mean tired of having CC follow Tebow from the Bronco's to the jets, and now to the patriots then you're correct. This dude, thinks Orton should have remained the bronco's starting QB in 2011. 0.o

Luckily, I've found the ignore for these boards, which is pretty swell as it saves sanity.:rocker:

 

[situational_awareness]

I think that this Concerned Citizen is the guy in the green headband....after he's finished with the Telambs...gruesome beatdown in this thread.

Are you serious? Demosthenes has pretty much destroyed every point he made.

 

[situational_awareness]

That's pretty much my point as to why I thought Tebow was so detrimental to the Broncos offense. Dude just couldn't stay on the field. Led the league in three and outs, and had SEVERAL drives end after just one first down. Saw Brady get the ball back for another drive, getting *****smacked across the field by the Pats was pretty much what I expected under those circumstances.

So detrimental that they started winning. Then they won the division. Then they won a playoff game. The rewriting of history in this thread about the "horrible Patriots" who were terrible the whole season but somehow managed to blow out the Broncos only because Tebow was their quarterback is laughable. The Patriots went to the Superbowl in 2011, i.e. they were pretty good. lol. Actually, I believe they were favored to win that Superbowl.

But Tebowmaniacs somehow don't seem to see the problem there. Unless they divert the criticism to the coach for his inability to hit receivers. They actually think none of that is a good correlation to winning, but looking at some stat with one eye closed, and standing on their head while looking at it in a mirror after spinning 3 times is a better indication of how good he really is.

....Which somehow makes him "Steve Young." (The popular comparison for Tebow fanatics.) He's more of a Bobby Douglas.

I see that you are well practiced in your "Tebow sucks" rhetoric, but all it amounts to is an attempt to philosophize away the facts. The arguments are hollow, for example:

He passed for a long touchdown, but...
He led the game winning drive, but...
The Broncos made it to the playoffs, but...
The Broncos won a division title, but...

If you have to keep explaining away what was observed and is documented in fact, perhaps you need to reevaluate your position.

 

[Joker]

Uh...this ISN'T your private little ring around the Tebowsey site...THIS is Patsfans dot com and I am a lifelong Patriots fan posting MY opinion as I SEE IT. If you troglodytic Temorons don't like it, then LEAVE. Post all you idiotic hero worship on the site YOU set up exclusively for it.
The ignorant, classless insults sprayed around this thread like fecal matter, calling people here these condescending names like "sunshine" and other insulting denigrations is NOT WANTED NOR NEEDED.

If you have to keep explaining away what was observed and is documented in fact, perhaps you need to reevaluate your position.

perhaps YOU need to heed YOUR OWN advice.

 

[situational_awareness]

The ignorant, classless insults sprayed around this thread like fecal matter, calling people here these condescending names like "sunshine" and other insulting denigrations is NOT WANTED NOR NEEDED.

Ummm... not to say this is a bit hypocritical, but...

Ban this troll immediately.... and here he is...the scumsauckingest piece of excrement that has ever trolled a sports message board.

Your take is that of a neophyte. Please stop posting nonsense.

bludgeons your pinhead into a puddle of sludge flowing back down the into the troll sewer.

....answer THAT with a straight face you mongo goons.

Don't worry little Tebow women trapped in boys bodies...I won't troll your precious little ring around the Tebosey shrine....why don't you all punch yourselves in your mouths and knock out some teeth
I mean, THESE clowns are one collective group of whacked out weirdos.

I will not be preached to by some Kentucky crankhead

... you troglodytic Temorons

I'm talking football and haven't used any names in my arguments. I don't think Demosthenes use of the word "sunshine" is anything even close in comparison to some of the stuff above.

Your insults are creative, I'll give you that... but if I may offer some advice, they lack "bite". They just sound a bit contrived. Like you're trying too hard. A simple, "you're an idiot" would probably be more effective.

Just sayin.

I like the Pats, and Tebow. The two aren't mutually exclusive. I also tried talking about Edelman and Blount several times... but all anyone responds to is the Tebow stuff, so I guess people want to discuss it. Don't get mad at everyone for debating an interesting topic.

 

[Oinko]

I think that this Concerned Citizen is the guy in the green headband....and . . . he makes me feel strange stirrings inside . . . . his posts are so-o-o-o LONG.

Too much information.

 

[Joker]

Ummm... not to say this is a bit hypocritical, but...















I'm talking football and haven't used any names in my arguments. I don't think Demosthenes use of the word "sunshine" is anything even close in comparison to some of the stuff above.

Just sayin.

I like the Pats, and Tebow. The two aren't mutually exclusive. I also tried talking about Edelman and Blount several times... but all anyone responds to is the Tebow stuff, so I guess people want to discuss it. Don't get mad at everyone for debating an interesting topic.

No, you're talking Tebow glorification and deification and attacking anybody who even suggests otherwise...just sayin'...you have thousands of "Tebow is God!!!" pukerations strewn on sports internet boards everywhere. You HAVE your own little nonny nunu glory board for your Tebow...STAY THERE. You are not nor have you ever been a Patriots fan.

 

[situational_awareness]

No, you're talking Tebow glorification and deification and attacking anybody who even suggests otherwise...just sayin'...you have thousands of "Tebow is God!!!" pukerations strewn on sports internet boards everywhere. You HAVE your own little nonny nunu glory board for your Tebow...STAY THERE. You are not nor have you ever been a Patriots fan.

Ummm... have we met before?

That's quite an impressive string of insults. Corny, but good vocabulary nonetheless. "Pukeration"? "Nonny nunu?" Reminds me of what Carlton from Fresh Prince would say if he got *really upset*... but Carlton was a funny guy and I liked that show, so don't take it the wrong way.

I think you are greatly exaggerating what has been said here.

Ain't nobody glorifying or deifying Tebow. I disagree with wholesale dismissals of his skills or accomplishments. I don't know why you are so paranoid, but there is nobody here who said "Tebow is God". I am highly critical of Tebow, but I don't think he is terrible. He's a good young QB with room to grow.

I'm not a fan of the Patriots like you are, no doubt... but I do like the Patriots and enjoy watching them. I've watched all their games for several years now. But, I don't see why it makes a difference if someone became a fan 5 minutes ago or 5 years ago. Is there a probationary period before the Board of Patriot Fans accepts new fans?

I like this board though. Everyone seems friendly for the most part, or at least respectable... just like I'd expect from fans of a classy organization. A few unnecessarily angry members here won't jade my opinion of the fan base.

 

[Joker]

and a string of half azzed rationalizations won't change my mind on what the Tebow Foreign Legionnaires has in mind when they troll this board...and, for your edification, perhaps you're just dense,when I say I've seen "Tebow is God!!!" screamed out in block letters like some ascetic Dead Sea monk, I mean that from the extensive reading I've done the past two weeks tracking every one of you nitwits that has suddenly appeared on this board.

There IS no middle ground with you people. How many times do I have to read the same person posting the same ridiculous "I'm a player fan...not a team fan" like it is some NORMAL FACT that must be accepted. That is an ABERRATION, It is DEVIANCE.Couching it in "sunshine" reproachments doesn't hide this FACT.

I am 100% behind BB's decision to add Tebow to the Pats roster. I wasn't at first but have since changed my position because of the information that has come to light from inside the Pats organization. He has pro level athleticism, pro experience and great character. He carries little negativity EXCEPT this pathological groupie party that follows him wherever his skills take him. This thread is PRIMA FACIE EVIDENCE to that end...and all the "cupake" and "sunshine" insults in the galaxy will not obscure this going forward.

 

[Ironman44]

Ummm... not to say this is a bit hypocritical, but...


I'm talking football and haven't used any names in my arguments. I don't think Demosthenes use of the word "sunshine" is anything even close in comparison to some of the stuff above.

Your insults are creative, I'll give you that... but if I may offer some advice, they lack "bite". They just sound a bit contrived. Like you're trying too hard. A simple, "you're an idiot" would probably be more effective.

Just sayin.

I like the Pats, and Tebow. The two aren't mutually exclusive. I also tried talking about Edelman and Blount several times... but all anyone responds to is the Tebow stuff, so I guess people want to discuss it. Don't get mad at everyone for debating an interesting topic.

Joker seems to be able to insult and badger and berate and get off topic and troll and call names with impunity and with absolutely no ramification , the good news is that it seems isolated.

Its literally just him . Its embarrassing but its just him. That is the good news.

 

[Joker]

Joker seems to be able to insult and badger and berate and get off topic and troll and call names with impunity and with absolutely no ramification , the good news is that it seems isolated.

Its literally just him . Its embarrassing but its just him.

use the ignore function....too obvious?

 

[Ironman44]

use the ignore function....too obvious?

you going off the deep end (for absolutely no reason) in the 1 or 2 tebow threads in the entire board and then bringing him up in threads that have nothing to do with tebow like the Kapearnick thread, is entertaining .

Its like a train wreck, you can't stop watching. I sure wish you would use the ignore thread function though (on all 2 Tebow threads) because even though it is entertaining it is a bit distracting.

 

[Joker]

well, that is actually pretty demonic of you to laugh at me, as you put it, in my misery of going off the deep end...I guess hypocrite is branded on the foreheads of all you Tebowites.

 

[situational_awareness]

and a string of half azzed rationalizations won't change my mind on what the Tebow Foreign Legionnaires has in mind when they troll this board...and, for your edification, perhaps you're just dense,when I say I've seen "Tebow is God!!!" screamed out in block letters like some ascetic Dead Sea monk, I mean that from the extensive reading I've done the past two weeks tracking every one of you nitwits that has suddenly appeared on this board.

I guess I am dense as you say, because I can't figure out what you are trying to convey here. Are you saying that you read all of the posts from the new members and you concluded that the overall theme from those posts is that we think Tebow is God? Or are you saying someone actually posted that? The way you're jumbling up everything, it's hard to really get your point.

There IS no middle ground with you people. How many times do I have to read the same person posting the same ridiculous "I'm a player fan...not a team fan" like it is some NORMAL FACT that must be accepted. That is an ABERRATION, It is DEVIANCE.Couching it in "sunshine" reproachments doesn't hide this FACT.

You people? What do you mean, "you people"?

Thank you for the rules and regulations on what is appropriate for a human being on this planet to be a fan of. I thought we had free will and all that stuff. I didn't know that we needed to conform to Joker's law. None of these new people have said anything bad about the Patriots, AFAIK. To me, it seems like a bunch of people who are glad Tebow went to a class organization like the Pats, and also want to either learn more about the team, or build upon an pre-existing extensive knowledge of the team. Why would you as a fan want to drive away ANY support for your team? Potential ticket-buyers, jersey buyers, sports bar pals, etc...

I am 100% behind BB's decision to add Tebow to the Pats roster. I wasn't at first but have since changed my position because of the information that has come to light from inside the Pats organization. He has pro level athleticism, pro experience and great character. He carries little negativity EXCEPT this pathological groupie party that follows him wherever his skills take him. This thread is PRIMA FACIE EVIDENCE to that end...and all the "cupake" and "sunshine" insults in the galaxy will not obscure this going forward.

This so-called "pathological groupie party" is just trying to join the community of Pats fans peacefully. You're taking shots for no reason, then get upset when they aren't received well. Tebow is on your team, but not one person has said he should do anything other than be the QB3 or possibly QB2 if he wins the job. That's it!