Taking Christian Barmore was a gamble.

[Hammer of Thor]

Dowling played full seasons for three years at Virginia, before playing 5 games in his senior season due to two injuries (ankle and hamstring).
He recovered fully from both, and had excellent workout scores. Many draft "experts" had him going in the second half of the first round.
He had more favorable injury history than other Patriots picks.

Knee injury, and one that was ”nagging.” And coaches implied there was more going on.
The Ras-I Dowling injury saga

This is exactly the type of player that usually goes 2nd round - 1st round talent but recent injury concerns.

 

[Wozzy]

Knee injury, and one that was ”nagging.” And coaches implied there was more going on.
The Ras-I Dowling injury saga

This is exactly the type of player that usually goes 2nd round - 1st round talent but recent injury concerns.

Gronk... when they work BB is a genius, when they don’t he sucks at drafting.

 

[Deus Irae]

Gronk... when they work BB is a genius, when they don’t he sucks at drafting.

Gronk was a talent so great that he proved his value despite a myriad of injuries even in the NFL. So we're now going to talk about Ras-I Dowling on the same level as the TE who'd likely be universally considered the G.O.A.T. at his position had he not lost so much to injury?

I mean, when you went to that comparison, you didn't see how ridiculous it was?

 

[Wozzy]

Gronk was a talent so great that he proved his value despite a myriad of injuries even in the NFL. So we're now going to talk about Ras-I Dowling on the same level as the TE who'd likely be universally considered the G.O.A.T. at his position had he not lost so much to injury?

I mean, when you went to that comparison, you didn't see how ridiculous it was?

Ras was the top ranked “big” corner that offseason, this revisionist history take that Bill found him in some dark corner of the NCAA or out of the blue is garbage.

Nobody compared anyone to anyone, certainly not a TE to a CB...injury histories among 2nd round picks were compared. You’re straying wildly off topic to portray me in a certain light.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Knee injury, and one that was ”nagging.” And coaches implied there was more going on.
The Ras-I Dowling injury saga

This is exactly the type of player that usually goes 2nd round - 1st round talent but recent injury concerns.

Dom Easley was in the same boat. He had balky knees at U of F. We all heard the, "If he was healthy he would have been a Top 10 pick.", crap.

I'd so much rather take an immature kid or or a player who does weed than a player who has already been cut open a couple of times.

 

[Deus Irae]

Ras was the top ranked “big” corner that offseason, this revisionist history take that Bill found him in some dark corner of the NCAA or out of the blue is garbage.

Nobody compared anyone to anyone, certainly not a TE to a CB...injury histories among 2nd round picks were compared. You’re straying wildly off topic to portray me in a certain light.

1. Ras wasn't a unicorn, while Gronk was.
2. I didn't stray off topic, at all.
3. You made a really poor comp.
4. I don't need to portray you in any light. For good or ill, you'll do that yourself.

Easley
Dowling
Wheatley


There are your appropriate comps, and that even includes a guy who might have been a non-unicorn type of top 10 pick, if he didn't have overly tightened banjo strings for ACLs. And, yes, if you make gamble picks, you deserve criticism if they miss. The whole point of a personnel gamble, after all, is that others didn't think the player was worth the risk, and you did.

 

[Wozzy]

1. Ras wasn't a unicorn, while Gronk was.
2. I didn't stray off topic, at all.
3. You made a really poor comp.
4. I don't need to portray you in any light. For good or ill, you'll do that yourself.

Easley
Dowling
Wheatley


There are your appropriate comps, and that even includes a guy who might have been a non-unicorn type of top 10 pick, if he didn't have overly tightened banjo strings for ACLs. And, yes, if you make gamble picks, you deserve criticism if they miss. The whole point of a personnel gamble, after all, is that others didn't think the player was worth the risk, and you did.

“Unicorn” lol

What you know years later in hindsight is worthless.

And for the record I hated the Easley pick because at full health he was simply not that good.

Ras got injured, predicting injuries is the stuff of fortune tellers... undoubtedly you have this ability, so the rest of us look silly.

Wheatley... are we just naming failed draft picks at this point? Shall I rattle off some draft classes for Bill Walsh for you so we can laugh at some horrible misses?

The draft is a crapshoot, despite being a bumbling stumbling fool BB has assembled some of the most talented teams in the NFL for decades and found all time greats like Brady, Seymour, Mankins, Wilfork and even Gronk.

It’s stunning how someone can be inept and wildly successful with no peer at the same time... but Pat’s fans haven’t grown entitled.

 

[Hammer of Thor]

Dom Easley was in the same boat. He had balky knees at U of F. We all heard the, "If he was healthy he would have been a Top 10 pick.", crap.

I'd so much rather take an immature kid or or a player who does weed than a player who has already been cut open a couple of times.

That was my problem with the Easley pick — not only the (recent) injury but there were pre-draft rumors about his football commitment. His scouting report (and his highlights) sounded exactly like someone that the Patriots needed on the football field, so I liked him in principle, but he was 2nd round value because of those two red flags. Instead he was picked in the 1st instead of other blue chip alternative (Joel Bitonio was the guy I wanted at 29 at the time - fit the need, scouting reports and testing seemed decent). Reports came out later that the Seahawks were going to take Easley if the Pats didn’t. Well, let them take the risk with their 1st round pick if they want to, that shouldn’t impact his actual value. Oh well.

If the maturity / intelligence concerns are true, then Barmore was picked exactly where he should have been. Hopefully the Pats can win the gamble this time.

 

[Froob]

I just read the Warren Sapp comments and they are concerning. I was excited about this pick...but, according to Sapp, Barmore will have a difficult time developing his game because he is that dumb.

Sapp is a clown.

 

[Froob]

That was my problem with the Easley pick — not only the (recent) injury but there were pre-draft rumors about his football commitment. His scouting report (and his highlights) sounded exactly like someone that the Patriots needed on the football field, so I liked him in principle, but he was 2nd round value because of those two red flags. Instead he was picked in the 1st instead of other blue chip alternative (Joel Bitonio was the guy I wanted at 29 at the time - fit the need, scouting reports and testing seemed decent). Reports came out later that the Seahawks were going to take Easley if the Pats didn’t. Well, let them take the risk with their 1st round pick if they want to, that shouldn’t impact his actual value. Oh well.

If the maturity / intelligence concerns are true, then Barmore was picked exactly where he should have been. Hopefully the Pats can win the gamble this time.

I just hope Baremore cares about winning at the end of the day. Sounds like Easley (and Jamie Collins) didn't really care about winning. Hopefully that isn't the case with Baremore and he'll be happy if we are winning and he's getting to play.

 

[Deus Irae]

“Unicorn” lol

What you know years later in hindsight is worthless.

And for the record I hated the Easley pick because at full health he was simply not that good.

Ras got injured, predicting injuries is the stuff of fortune tellers... undoubtedly you have this ability, so the rest of us look silly.

Wheatley... are we just naming failed draft picks at this point? Shall I rattle off some draft classes for Bill Walsh for you so we can laugh at some horrible misses?

The draft is a crapshoot, despite being a bumbling stumbling fool BB has assembled some of the most talented teams in the NFL for decades and found all time greats like Brady, Seymour, Mankins, Wilfork and even Gronk.

It’s stunning how someone can be inept and wildly successful with no peer at the same time... but Pat’s fans haven’t grown entitled.

You think Gronk was an unknown? He missed an entire season, and would still have been a high first round pick if that had been his only injury. But his history is his history.

King, Gronk Show Risk-Reward of NFL Prospects with Medical Red Flags

Taking A Look Back At Rob Gronkowski’s Injury History


And while what you thought of Easley isn't relevant to my point, and your incorrect assesment of why I named Wheatley is simply that, your notion that predicting injuries is the stuff of fortune tellers is just flat out wrong. Stop being such a honk that you end up flailing about ridiculously like you are with this post of yours. It doesn't do anything but make you look silly.

 

[Wozzy]

You think Gronk was an unknown? He missed an entire season, and would still have been a high first round pick if that had been his only injury. But his history is his history.

King, Gronk Show Risk-Reward of NFL Prospects with Medical Red Flags

Taking A Look Back At Rob Gronkowski’s Injury History


And while what you thought of Easley isn't relevant to my point, and your incorrect assesment of why I named Wheatley is simply that, your notion that predicting injuries is the stuff of fortune tellers is just flat out wrong. Stop being such a honk that you end up flailing about ridiculously like you are with this post of yours. It doesn't do anything but make you look silly.

No, I didn’t say Gronk was an unknown... I said Ras wasn’t either. Without injury history he might have been a first rounder.

Seems “a honk” is whoever disagrees with you that BB sucks at his job and whenever he succeeds it was due to “luck.”

An unprecedented career based entirely on luck... sounds probable.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Sapp is a clown.

Sapp has no credibility whatsoever.

 

[Wozzy]

Sapp has no credibility whatsoever.

Warren Sapp assaults women, went bankrupt immediately after playing and fought in court to retain his sneaker collection... but we need to listen to Warren Sapp.

 

[FreeTedWilliams]

Everything in life is a gamble, I'm just glad that we all (we I'm sure some didn't) made it through last Sunday, and avoided the "shanahan curse"

 

[zydecochris]

It's not as if I'm just making it up.


Instant Reaction: Patriots Land Top DT In the Draft

Why Christian Barmore could be the Patriots’ most impactful rookie this season


etc..., etc...., etc....



Far from being considered the best run stopper in the draft, as mgteich was claiming, he's considered a problem against the run. Maybe it's just fixable technique, and maybe it's not, but it's there.

Deus, there is no question that at Alabama Barmore's role was a designated interior pass rusher and disruptor. Alabama runs a classic 3-4 defense, and in the past (much like the Seymour Patriots) the three linemen maintain gap discipline and attempt to penetrate the pocket (often very successfully) while the outside linebackers provide much of the pass rush. Unlike the Patriots, Saban has not deviated from the 3-4, but in recent years he has transitioned from big behemoths on the line (e.g., Terrance Cody) to more athletic players like Quinnen Williams. And, more than almost any team Alabama rotates their defensive linemen in and out to keep them fresh. Nevertheless, Alabama 3-4 Defensive linemen are supposed to maintain much discipline at the line while pushing inward so that the linebackers can swoop in for plays.

Barmore didn't really fit that classic mold very well, and as a result he only started 5 games at Alabama. I was worried that his inconsistent play in the past was effort related, but doing a bit of research that doesn't reportedly seem to be the case, he evidently is very high effort and he injected energy into the defense both on the field and in the locker room (especially late in his third year) And once he started to put it together he was an absolutely dominant pass rusher, he simply destroyed good offensive lines like Notre Dame and Ohio State. So, that is good and promising. If nothing else I think he promises to add an important high energy pass rush element into the defensive line, hopefully early on.

When it came to rush defense, for some reason until late in his third year (at least) he was constantly zigging when he was supposed to be zagging, and Saban said as much. Deus, as you say I am hopeful it is a fixable technique, he certainly seems to have natural ability. But I think this tendency to make errors on run plays (especially early on) is what has led to some of the draft criticism. Some critics interpreted it as not being "coachable". Some like Warren Sapp (who I didn't realize was a member of Mensa himself) has suggested that he isn't smart. It sounds like the natural ability is there, and the effort and hard work is there (according to Saban), so I am hopeful that perhaps he is simply raw and unpolished a bit. He didn't play varsity football until his senior year in high school. He redshirted his freshman year. He started only 5 games during his second and third years. So: he doesn't really have a ton of starting experience.

As you say any player is a risk, one only has to look at the statistics. However, I think his upside is really high, certainly as a disruptive pass rusher. What would be a real bonus would be if, with experience and hard work, he is able to fix his run defense technique and become a factor there also, we could certainly use a boost in the run defense.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Warren Sapp assaults women, went bankrupt immediately after playing and fought in court to retain his sneaker collection... but we need to listen to Warren Sapp.

Seems like his line mate from TB Booger McFarland found his niche as a studio analyst. Not a fan of his MNF commentary but he did a nice job during the draft. Seemed well prepared and to the point. Plus he liked the NEP picks...

 

[goheels22002]

He's gonna be a stud for us. He's 21, grew up in Philly, played 2 full seasons at Alabama. He could see the field in week 1.

He grew up in Philly? What? He likes hoagies? His mama bought him Strawberry Freezes at Wawa? Is he gonna boo Santa Claus, or what?

 

[Deus Irae]

Deus, there is no question that at Alabama Barmore's role was a designated interior pass rusher and disruptor. Alabama runs a classic 3-4 defense, and in the past (much like the Seymour Patriots) the three linemen maintain gap discipline and attempt to penetrate the pocket (often very successfully) while the outside linebackers provide much of the pass rush. Unlike the Patriots, Saban has not deviated from the 3-4, but in recent years he has transitioned from big behemoths on the line (e.g., Terrance Cody) to more athletic players like Quinnen Williams. And, more than almost any team Alabama rotates their defensive linemen in and out to keep them fresh. Nevertheless, Alabama 3-4 Defensive linemen are supposed to maintain much discipline at the line while pushing inward so that the linebackers can swoop in for plays.

Barmore didn't really fit that classic mold very well, and as a result he only started 5 games at Alabama. I was worried that his inconsistent play in the past was effort related, but doing a bit of research that doesn't reportedly seem to be the case, he evidently is very high effort and he injected energy into the defense both on the field and in the locker room (especially late in his third year) And once he started to put it together he was an absolutely dominant pass rusher, he simply destroyed good offensive lines like Notre Dame and Ohio State. So, that is good and promising. If nothing else I think he promises to add an important high energy pass rush element into the defensive line, hopefully early on.

When it came to rush defense, for some reason until late in his third year (at least) he was constantly zigging when he was supposed to be zagging, and Saban said as much. Deus, as you say I am hopeful it is a fixable technique, he certainly seems to have natural ability. But I think this tendency to make errors on run plays (especially early on) is what has led to some of the draft criticism. Some critics interpreted it as not being "coachable". Some like Warren Sapp (who I didn't realize was a member of Mensa himself) has suggested that he isn't smart. It sounds like the natural ability is there, and the effort and hard work is there (according to Saban), so I am hopeful that perhaps he is simply raw and unpolished a bit. He didn't play varsity football until his senior year in high school. He redshirted his freshman year. He started only 5 games during his second and third years. So: he doesn't really have a ton of starting experience.

As you say any player is a risk, one only has to look at the statistics. However, I think his upside is really high, certainly as a disruptive pass rusher. What would be a real bonus would be if, with experience and hard work, he is able to fix his run defense technique and become a factor there also, we could certainly use a boost in the run defense.

Yeah,


Given the way the league has been trending, it's not exactly a disaster if he never evolves past "Interior rusher on passing downs". So, if he only fulfills the promise of his draft reports, and never fixes the problems of his draft reports, he can still be a nice contributor to a team.

 

[zydecochris]

Seems like his line mate from TB Booger McFarland found his niche as a studio analyst. Not a fan of his MNF commentary but he did a nice job during the draft. Seemed well prepared and to the point. Plus he liked the NEP picks...

I agree he is a bit meh with his MNF commentary, but most of my experience with him was as a frequent guest on the Paul Finebaum show some years back (8-9 years ago??) when Finebaum hosted his show in Birmingham Alabama and mostly talked about the SEC and especially Alabama and Auburn. That was back before I really embraced Podcasts, and so for listening entertainment on the hour long drive home from work it was either NPR or Paul Finebaum on the radio, and Finebaum more often than not. I have to say that Booger McFarland was an absolute hoot on that show, he was very unscripted and told all sorts of entertaining (and borderline lurid) stories about the old days, mostly his days at LSU. I'm surprised he didn't become a radio talk show host, that seemed to be his real sweet spot, he was great on that radio show.