Stop blaming the coordinators

[Ring 6]

The point of my post, and something you have vehemently argued against everybody, is that our players weren't put in the best position to succeed in the second half. Yes, there are some plays that could have been executed a little better and you can pin those on players, but overall, the lack of creativity in our playcalling on both sides were subpar. Compare it with the way the Jets coaches were calling the game in the second half. Did you see the difference? I don't think the Jets have the players that are 18 points more talented than our players which is how much we got outscored in the second half. Coaching had a huge part in last Sunday's game.

The difference I saw was the Jets executed their play calls and we didn't.
If Sanchez underthrew his TE or threw 2 Ints (whether you blame Brady, or like me Moss) then the Jets play calling would have looked bad.
What did the Jets do that was so special? The mixed the run and pass, and threw in front of the secondary. OK Sanchez made good throws.
They called a defense that left Randy Moss in single coverage with no safety help in order to overload the middle of the field. If Moss executed we burned them.

You are mistaking plays being well executed as being good play calls.
Our game plan forced the Jet defense to be tentative stop blitzing and leave Randy Moss in single coverage with no safety. THAT IS WHAT WE WANTED. When we got it the players did not do their job.

 

[Rob0729]

Once again the play is not X-Right-Deep to Randy
The play is a series of routes. You need to also run deep routes to ope the shorter routes. Almost every play has a deep route. You are blaming the OC for calling a play that threatened the entire field to help open up the first down area. OBrien didnt choose to go deep to Moss.
On tape I cannot see the route. I can say that Moss was open and the throw did not miss by much. But I cannot tell if Moss sleep walked thorugh that one. I can tell you the 3rd and 13 was a good decision. This one I disagreed with in live action, but it is very hard to tell a QB not to throw to your best receiver who has his man beaten one on one, which he did.

I suppose the alternative is to have Moss run a curl but then you clog the area you really want to open up.

In any event, if you say that pass was ill-advised you are criticizing Bradys execution of the play, not the play call.

I will respond and go. It looked from the play that Moss was Brady's first read. That means the play was to him. On every play receivers run route, but the play is designed to go to a particular player and if that player isn't open then they check down. Moss looked to be the first read. Now Brady might have called a hot route or another audible on the line, but the play looked designed to go to Moss.

Based on your description, the OC is never responsible. A bubble screen to Welker or a quick slant to Hernadez could still have Moss going deep, but he is usually the last option on a play like that. But he could get the ball if Brady's other reads are covered or Moss gets quick separation and Brady sees it, but the play wasn't designed to go to Moss.

Again, I could be wrong, I am pretty sure Moss was the first read. If he was the first read, then it is O'Brien's fault unless the play was designed for a pump fake to Moss (but pump fakes usually for deep pass not a short one to fake out defenders to react and the receiver to break separation down field).

 

[emoney_33]

Have people really been bashing the OCs for the last decade? I thought Weiss was great. McDaniels was generally great, but teams started to catch up to the constant spread offense. O'Brien has been lousy. Crennel was great, Peas sucked. Whoever's calling the defense now, well we'll see.

Yes, as crazy as it sounds, some people just love to bash OCs. (NOTE: I don't believe that's what is going on here)

 

[Ring 6]

That's nice to hear. I hope that when I grow up I can be just like him. Until then, I will just continue to use common sense and logic.

Feel free to start that at any time.

Seriously though.
Do you see nothing wrong with your argument when your blame for the OC was based on your misconception that the OC sent in 'throw it deep to Randy' play calls?
Wouldn't it be appropriate for you to reduce the blame you are putting on the OC when you learn that what you were blaming him for was done by the QB?
I mean, either that, or you are just playing a game trying to sound right whether you are or not.

 

[condon84]

I cannot disagree with your comments,but let me take it a little further.

Weis was a great designer and innovator of plays. He always had a trick up his sleeve.

McDaniels, IMO, was never great...and it is where the beginning of the Pats second half failures eminated.

As you said, opponents began toi catch up to his spread offense, and unlike Weis, McDaniels never changed... in fact, it was his lack of second half adjusting that hurt the team more often than not.

So then, along comes O'Brien, hired as an "offensive assistant" For a full season no one even knew who the hell he was.

I am going to guess that he was recommended by McDaniels, seeing as they both went to the same college at the same time.

So,now we have O'brien with an inability to adjust mid stream... and where might he have gotten that from....from McDaniels,of course... the first NON adjuster.

It's really fairly easy to figure out.

I thought McDaniels progressed and was a great OC by the time he left. Look at what he did with Cassel in 08 and how much he progressed that year. From what I recall that year, Cassel and our offense played better in the second half of games and generally finished strong.

 

[Ring 6]

Yes, I agree the ridiculous and unwarranted bashing of the OC for the last decade had gotten ludicrous. However, I don't think O'Brien deserves to get an automatic pass here. BB clearly feels he is lacking something at this point in his career otherwise he would have been named OC (ala McDaniels). As with most things, we as fans don't have enough information to make factually-backed accurate specific criticisms. But worry about O'Brien's effect on the offense is not unwarranted IMHO.



It's hard to weed out the legit criticism and the type that's been going on for a decade I agree.

Oh by no means does OBrien get a pass.
There are many facets to being a good coordinator, and frankly, playcalling is at or close to the least important.
If you have a well designed offense the plays you call don't make a huge difference. When you call a pass play, especially in our option passing game, you have a different set of routes for the coverage you get. So the play being in the playbook to start with means it is a reasonable call no matter the defense 90% of the time.
OBrien hasnt shown me where his skill level is yet. I think given Bradys year off of football, scoring the 3rd most points in the NFL can't be described as a poor job by the OC, but the book is still unwitten to a large extent.
But having an OC that may have questions does not mean a poor performance is because of him. Especially when you watch the plays.

 

[condon84]

The difference I saw was the Jets executed their play calls and we didn't.
If Sanchez underthrew his TE or threw 2 Ints (whether you blame Brady, or like me Moss) then the Jets play calling would have looked bad.
What did the Jets do that was so special? The mixed the run and pass, and threw in front of the secondary. OK Sanchez made good throws.
They called a defense that left Randy Moss in single coverage with no safety help in order to overload the middle of the field. If Moss executed we burned them.

You are mistaking plays being well executed as being good play calls.
Our game plan forced the Jet defense to be tentative stop blitzing and leave Randy Moss in single coverage with no safety. THAT IS WHAT WE WANTED. When we got it the players did not do their job.

The Jets didn't do anything "special", they just called the correct plays. When the Jets started exploiting the middle of our defense with short passes in the middle, we switched to a sub package with to try to neutralize those passes. The Jets smartly started running up the gut. Not a brilliant move, but the most logical one.

Beginning of the game, the Jets came out in zone coverage and rushed for the most part 3-4 guys and dropped people in zone coverage. Brady and our offense took advantage and we go for 2 long drives. For the rest of the game, the Jets went back into their press defense and attacked our offense which worked. Again, nothing special, but logical. Something wasn't working, so they changed up.

 

[Ring 6]

I will respond and go. It looked from the play that Moss was Brady's first read. That means the play was to him. On every play receivers run route, but the play is designed to go to a particular player and if that player isn't open then they check down. Moss looked to be the first read. Now Brady might have called a hot route or another audible on the line, but the play looked designed to go to Moss.

Based on your description, the OC is never responsible. A bubble screen to Welker or a quick slant to Hernadez could still have Moss going deep, but he is usually the last option on a play like that. But he could get the ball if Brady's other reads are covered or Moss gets quick separation and Brady sees it, but the play wasn't designed to go to Moss.

Again, I could be wrong, I am pretty sure Moss was the first read. If he was the first read, then it is O'Brien's fault unless the play was designed for a pump fake to Moss (but pump fakes usually for deep pass not a short one to fake out defenders to react and the receiver to break separation down field).

Its very hard to tell from TV what the progressions were.
But, the progressions are based on the coverage. Moss could have been the 4th option vs cover 2 or the first option vs a corner blitz on the same play, to use extremes.
My personal opinion is that it is a staple of every offense that if you get single coverage outside with no safety help you should be throwing the that outside receiver.
Shanahan used to say to WRs "If you cant beat man coverage, John Elway has 7 car dealerships you can go work at".
I think it is 99% likely that our offense like almost every other says that if your best WR is in single coverage with no help, you look there first.

Like I said the first Int happened because Moss 80%ed it to the ball. I cant see his route on this play, but he was behind the defender and the pass barely missed. Overrthrow or undereffort? You can't be so conservative to not take that shot if its there. Bu again that is not play calling.

 

[Ring 6]

One thing that I have never said, unlike some others here, is that too many "throw deep to Moss" pass plays are called. I have, however,disagreed with the routes of those plays and have mentioned it on numerous occasions.

I, and others, are not really hitting so much on the deep pass plays to Moss. What is being said is that, overall, and there has been much discussion on it, much with documentation, that the team is being beaten in the second halves of games for failure to counter adjustments being made by the other team.

I, for one, have never laid it all out on one particular play to Moss, or any other receiver, but more so the overall progression of play calls that, for all intent and purposes, have been negated by defensive adjustments, and the continued use of the same plays that have already proven to be non productive.

I dont care about progressions,etc...what I see is a total neglect of
common sense and logic and for whatever purpose,the unwilligness, or maybe the unable to, make the necessary counter moves,and that, my friend is a very,very seriusproblem that,if not corrected, will continue to fester and the end result will be that their season will be over before it begins.

How ill fans of this team react to being eliminated from making the playoffs with 4 or 5 weeks left in thew regular season? And, unlessthe problem is rectified now, no matter what it takes, that is a distinct possibility. I dont want to have to face it,and I doubt that neither do you.

If you think it is ugly now, just wait and see how ugly it really can Get.

EDIT: BTW I thought you weren't going to respond to me.

I wasn t going to but you responded to me first and I have a hard time keeping my mouth shut.

Well, now you are backing off of criticizing anything specific, just saying that the team has not played as well as you think it has, and you call that "Lack of Adjustments".

Lets try something different.
Instead of you repeating the same 11 sentences 4000 times, why dont you explain the adjustments that you think should be made that are not being made, when they should be made, and what result you are expecting?

 

[Joker]

two freaking games into the season and all is lost because of ONE bad 2nd half...I'm not even kidding, if any of you EVER followed the Pats in the 70's the suicide rate in N.E. would have been ten times what it actually was...

 

[Ring 6]

The Jets didn't do anything "special", they just called the correct plays. When the Jets started exploiting the middle of our defense with short passes in the middle, we switched to a sub package with to try to neutralize those passes. The Jets smartly started running up the gut. Not a brilliant move, but the most logical one.

Beginning of the game, the Jets came out in zone coverage and rushed for the most part 3-4 guys and dropped people in zone coverage. Brady and our offense took advantage and we go for 2 long drives. For the rest of the game, the Jets went back into their press defense and attacked our offense which worked. Again, nothing special, but logical. Something wasn't working, so they changed up.

And we made changes too. The difference is they completed passes and didnt throw Ints and we didnt complete passes and did throw Ints.
Are you really honestly saying that we called incomplete and Int plays and they called complete plays, and that the players are simply pawns moved around the field by the play caller, and how they execute the play is meaningless?
Did you think Moss and Brady did a good job of playing well enough to exploit the fact that the Jets were FORCED TO (they didnt chose to, they were forced to) abandon their blitz and leave Moss in single coverage?

Is it not good play calling to force the defense out of what it wants to do and make it change its identity and play a style it isnt as comfortable in?
Shouldn't the players be able to take advantage of that? They simply didnt and they were given many chances.

If rady didnt overthrow Gronk, and Moss caught the catchable pass, and Light didnt blow the block, we probably had at least as effective a second half as the Jets did. That even includes the poor execution on the first Int still happening.
If Sanchez missed Keller on 3rd and 1, and Cotchery tipped a ball up instead of catching that resulted in an Int, and a Jet OL missed a block in the red zone causing a strip sack, the Jet offense looks just like ours did.

Plays are not plays if they aren't executed. When they are well executed they are all good calls.

 

[Deus Irae]

two freaking games into the season and all is lost because of ONE bad 2nd half...I'm not even kidding, if any of you EVER followed the Pats in the 70's the suicide rate in N.E. would have been ten times what it actually was...

God forbid they lose to the Bills.

 

[Ring 6]

Just one question, Andy. Is it possible that the reason we did not execute our plays well might have been because the Jets adjusted their defenses while we did nothing to counter it? That does have logic to it, doesn it?

Its not about logic, its about what really happened.
The Jets changed their defense, and we changed the way we attacked it. We attacked it coorrectly, we just did a bad job at it.

This is part of the problem.
I went back and rewatched the game. I tracked it and noted and posted here that in the first half about 80% of our passes were to players covered by LBs (and most of the rest by safeties) with only a handful at corners. In the second half we threw something like 80% at corners and safeties.
Yet you still sit here and ask if the answer is we did nothing differently.

The Jets came out in a defense that gave us the middle of the fiedl with good receivers covered by LBs who couldnt handle them. They changed that. The first result was the bobbed almost TD to Moss, the next was the TD. The rest was the second half, where we had the play we wanted and did not make it.

Why discuss if you ignore the facts brought in?

We executed well in the first half BEFORE they adjusted, so what would you think caused our execution to go from good in the first half to in the ****ter in the second half?

No, we executed in the first half before and after they adjusted.
Adjustments are done all game long. It isnt a reprogramming at halftime.

Couldnt be our lack of countering their adjustments, could it?

The whole game is about adjusting. In the second half we had the plays we wanted.
Answer this:
If last week we said we are going to set up a gameplan that gets the Jets to abandon blitzing and have to play 3/4s of the game with Moss in man coverage with no help, and Revis is out, would you say thats a bad gameplan?
Thats what we did. When we GOT WHAT WE WANTED we didnt make the plays. It really is that simple.

BTW, am I allowed to say "****ter" here?

I dont understand.

 

[condon84]

And we made changes too. The difference is they completed passes and didnt throw Ints and we didnt complete passes and did throw Ints.

You gotta be kidding me with this response. You are running out of excuses.

Are you really honestly saying that we called incomplete and Int plays and they called complete plays, and that the players are simply pawns moved around the field by the play caller, and how they execute the play is meaningless?

You're reaching here. All I'm saying is that our players weren't put in the best position to succeed in the second half. If you watched the first half, you would have seen our offense go up and down the field with ease because they were put in the best position to succeed because of the plays we were calling against what the Jets defense ran.

Did you think Moss and Brady did a good job of playing well enough to exploit the fact that the Jets were FORCED TO (they didnt chose to, they were forced to) abandon their blitz and leave Moss in single coverage?

How often did they leave Moss in single coverage? I don't have the exact figures but whatever adjustment they made in the second half worked. Or was it because our offense just didn't execute.

Is it not good play calling to force the defense out of what it wants to do and make it change its identity and play a style it isnt as comfortable in?
Shouldn't the players be able to take advantage of that? They simply didnt and they were given many chances.

I've stated plenty of times, our playcalling was fantastic in the first half. What happened in the second half? Oh wait, yeah, we just didn't execute.

If rady didnt overthrow Gronk, and Moss caught the catchable pass, and Light didnt blow the block, we probably had at least as effective a second half as the Jets did. That even includes the poor execution on the first Int still happening.

If I was 6'5" with a rocket arm, played successful college football and got drafted by another team other than the Pats, I would hold out and make that team trade me to the Pats. Guess what, none of that happened.

If Sanchez missed Keller on 3rd and 1, and Cotchery tipped a ball up instead of catching that resulted in an Int, and a Jet OL missed a block in the red zone causing a strip sack, the Jet offense looks just like ours did.

If I was 6'5" with a rocket arm, played successful college football and got drafted by another team other than the Pats, I would.............................oh wait.........nevermind.

Plays are not plays if they aren't executed. When they are well executed they are all good calls.

So in short, if a play fails, it's lack of execution. If it's successful, it's because it was executed the way it was practiced. We have the supah dupah bestest coordinators in the NFL.

You're schtick is becoming old. We got outcoached this past Sunday. There's nothing wrong in admitting that. Hopefully this will be a learning experience.

It's okay Andy, the Patriots are still da bess!

 

[condon84]

two freaking games into the season and all is lost because of ONE bad 2nd half...I'm not even kidding, if any of you EVER followed the Pats in the 70's the suicide rate in N.E. would have been ten times what it actually was...

Expectations would be different so reacting to bad loses wouldn't be this dramatic.

 

[ausbacker]

I've come to the conclusion that it's nobodies fault. It's not the coaches fault for the failure to make the perceived second half adjustment and it's not the players fault for not executing.

All is well. Nobody is to blame apparently.

 

[ausbacker]

well, if that's the case, we have nothing left to discuss so lets close the site down and move on. Is there a sumo wrestling site, or a synchronized swimming site we can all head over to and discuss strategy?

I'd be interested to see an offensive line of yokozuna at the Patriots. Good luck trying to penetrate that!

 

[Brady2Welker]

I've come to the conclusion that it's nobodies fault. It's not the coaches fault for the failure to make the perceived second half adjustment and it's not the players fault for not executing.

All could be better. The team as a whole, including coaches and players, are to blame apparently.

Tried to fix it.

 

[ausbacker]

Tried to fix it.

That's my general feeling Brady2Welker. Given the multitude of decisions and outcomes that occur in a game, the end result comes down to the team. We can argue specific plays until the cows come home where the reality is it's the sum of all parts that affects the outcome.

What's troublesome is sure the Patriots did a good job in "losing" the game, but the Jets played a pretty spectacular second half, aided by some strange refereeing and an intimidating crowd. They deserve some kudos for the mess starting with the field goal just before half time.

 

[Ring 6]

You gotta be kidding me with this response. You are running out of excuses.

I have nothing to make excuses for. The Jets won because their players played better. They were in position to make plays and did, we were in position to make plays and didnt

You're reaching here. All I'm saying is that our players weren't put in the best position to succeed in the second half. If you watched the first half, you would have seen our offense go up and down the field with ease because they were put in the best position to succeed because of the plays we were calling against what the Jets defense ran.

I dont know you and I dont know if you have ever played football but if you have, think about this.
Think about that your position is that the game isnt about me beating you its about my coach making it easy for me.
Passes dont get completed because of an unbelievable play call. They get completed because the line blocks, the receiver runs a good route and the QB is accurate, while making the right decision.

How often did they leave Moss in single coverage? I don't have the exact figures but whatever adjustment they made in the second half worked. Or was it because our offense just didn't execute.

A LOT.
OK. First adjustments aren't a halftime exclusive. They happen all game long.
Second, here is what really happened. No theory, just what was on the field.
Early in the game we completed most of our passes on mismatches of LBs covering TEs, WRs, RBs. The safeties were back the short middle was open.
As the game wore on the Jets used more dbs, and they crowded the area we were being successful in, and they abandoned the blitz. The consequence was leaving Moss in single coverage with no help.

Think about this. We took a team that lives by pressure, and turned them into a coverage team. We took a team that has dbs in man coverage on blitzes but they were burned consistently the weak before when the rush didn't get there, and had them covering man to man with no blitz.
We made the Jets abandon their identity.
I can not think of a better description of putting your players in a position to succeed.

What happens? We get what we want, and Moss gets 1 deep TD, loafs into one Int and drops another pass that turns into another Int.
Aside from that we had a strip sack and 2 drives that stalled.
If Moss makes those plays, and Light blocks Taylor, we are celebrating the game plan that took the teeth out of the Jets.
Players have to deliever for play calls to work.

I've stated plenty of times, our playcalling was fantastic in the first half. What happened in the second half? Oh wait, yeah, we just didn't execute.

Honestly though its a circular argument. Plays that work are good calls, plays that dont arent. Obvioulsy that is obtuse.
Frankly, if you dont have coaches tape, havent studied tendencies and dont know the matchups inside and out, you cant really use any legitimate judgment of play calling other than if it worked it was smart if it failed it was stupid. From that persepective there is no execution, and its Madden auto play.

If I was 6'5" with a rocket arm, played successful college football and got drafted by another team other than the Pats, I would hold out and make that team trade me to the Pats. Guess what, none of that happened.



If I was 6'5" with a rocket arm, played successful college football and got drafted by another team other than the Pats, I would.............................oh wait.........nevermind.

Thats lame though. You cannot discuss execution by saying that good execution cannot be expected, and then call the problem something other than execution.

So in short, if a play fails, it's lack of execution. If it's successful, it's because it was executed the way it was practiced. We have the supah dupah bestest coordinators in the NFL.

No. Its usually execution whether it works or not.
You can change coordinators on a talented team and notice little difference. You can put a successful coordinator on an untalented team, and he will fail.
Let me put it this way.

A well executed play will almost always succeed
A poorly executed play will almost always fail

Play calling gets too much credit and too much blame.

There is also a much, much thinner line that anyone wants to admit between a touchdown drive and a punt, it comes down to one missed block, one bad read, one poor throw, one drop. etc

You're schtick is becoming old. We got outcoached this past Sunday. There's nothing wrong in admitting that. Hopefully this will be a learning experience.

It's okay Andy, the Patriots are still da bess!

I dont have a horse in this race. There is no schtck I am just explaining the facts as I see them.
Call me a homer all you want. I freely admit I want this team to win every game it ever plays. I freely admit I prefer to focus on the positive than the negative for as long as there is reason to believe the organization is on the right path, and unless you are setting the bar unrealistic high, there is plenty reason to believe that.

I'm curious though why you would invoke a homer slur. Curious because it often happens in cases like this where there simply isnt a homer or nonnhomer side to the argument. I guess belittiling me somehow feels like your argument sounds better?

I would be more comfortable with the answer being coaching. That is more fixable than the answer being talent.
I can't see how it is blind homerism to say that our player played poorly, but unbiased to say they did great the coaches blew it.
Well, maybe someday I'll figure out that thought process.

I think I've laid it out pretty clearly in this post, so Im out.Any more would be futile.