So how do you grade this year’s draft?

[Boomer B]

The Pat's O-Line, Defense and Special Teams were tops in the league for two decades... suggesting that was because of Brady is insulting to every player who contributed to those wins. It's the ultimate team sport.

I might as well talk to the wall. Once again, I’m not saying it’s “because of Brady”. Every player, coach, management, etc.. had a piece in it, some more then others obviously. I’m saying in my opinion Brady was the biggest piece. If you’d like me to do a pie chart so you can see it visually let me know.

 

[Biffins]

I've come to the conclusion that Belichick views the draft as an opportunity to say FU to the football establishment and its consensus. And that includes the members of this forum who are once again befuddled in the draft's aftermath.

Based on his generally poor drafting history maybe he should stop saying FU and just listen to the pundits. He can’t be doing worse than he already is. Especially with WRs and defensive backs. The only thing that has been some salvation is finding OL as starters in 4th and 5th rounds consistently but I am starting to feel that was more Scar turning mediocre talent into more capable professionals rather than BB. Recently low round OL have done nothing since Scar retired

 

[PScottman]

The Chiefs and Packers chose the draft picks offered and money and cap space saved to keeping the player. That might be difficult for the receiver obsessed among us to believe, but it’s what happened.

Agree. Further its the percentage of overall cap space vs the rest of the team that is another factor few talk about. Why is the draft now WR obsessed? Because if you "have to have" a superstar QB and at least one superstar WR...if those two players alone take up 30-40% of the entire cap - do I even need to go further?

Draft hit rates will likely stay around their mean as well so the ripple effect of now over picking (meaning taking 2 WRs every draft to try and hit on the all-pro to save on that cap restriction) on one position paired with the cap craziness of over-allocation and lead to some teams being historically bad in other ways whether that's OL or defense for example.

Cultural norm shifts don't always mean success. The WRs as cornerstones of NFL teams phase going on right now could have some very interesting outcomes in the very near future.

 

[PScottman]

I am starting to feel that was more Scar turning mediocre talent into more capable professionals rather than BB

So for Scar...it's the coaching that "hides" any poor picks...but the same doesn't apply for the head coach?

Huh???

 

[All3Phases]

It's ironic your screen name and the weight you put on just Brady and not the team

I very much think you need to be good in all 3 phases to win, never said otherwise. My point really is, are we seeing how much easier it is to be competent on offense and defense when you have an elite quarterback? Nobody brings up how the patriots had the 2nd ranked defense in the league last year, all we talk about (not sure here tbh) is how they failed down the stretch and need to get better. I think it’s ok to say one person was more important then another or another position without saying none of them mattered

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Once again laughable. Brady threw 4 TDs and engineered a 10pt 4th qtr comeback against the best D of that era. He got game MVP, yet for you all the credit goes to Bill (it was actually Ernie Adams who scouted that pick play the Seahawks ran near the goal line). In the last SB they never get there if Brady doesn't play a historic game in KC.

What really makes me laugh about you is that when those games happened and while Brady was here you couldn't give enough praise to him. Now that he's gone it's all on Bill. You're a fraud.

Are you this dumb? The MVP goes to the single player that is most valuable, not the most important coach or unit on the team. Basically they had to give the MVP to someone and they couldn't give it to the defense or Bill. And yeah Ernie Adams scouted the pick play in SB 49, but it was Belichick coached the play to perfection in practice. Malcom wasn't getting it right.

What historic KC game? The game where he threw 1 INT and 2 INT? and it would have been a 3 INT game (and a loss) if it weren't for Dee Ford.

Do you realize if it weren't for Malcolm Butler and Dee Ford, Tommy Boy would only be 5-4 in Super Bowls?

Anyway, I'm done here. You people turned what was a fine thread about the draft into Bill vs Tom. Yet somehow one of you Tommyites will complain to Ian and say it's my fault.

 

[All3Phases]

Are you this dumb? The MVP goes to the single player that is most valuable, not the most important coach or unit on the team. Basically they had to give the MVP to someone and they couldn't give it to the defense or Bill. And yeah Ernie Adams scouted the pick play in SB 49, but it was Belichick coached the play to perfection in practice. Malcom wasn't getting it right.

What historic KC game? The game where he threw 1 INT and 2 INT? and it would have been a 3 INT game (and a loss) if it weren't for Dee Ford.

Do you realize if it weren't for Malcolm Butler and Dee Ford, Tommy Boy would only be 5-4 in Super Bowls?

Anyway, I'm done here. You people turned what was a fine thread about the draft into Bill vs Tom. Yet somehow one of you Tommyites will complain to Ian and say it's my fault.

You say this but can’t acknowledge the fact BB has won 1 playoff game in 9 years without him though. Is under .500. Has 3 winning seasons. At what point do you have to say there’s kind of a coincidence?

 

[SHOWTIME15]

You say this but can’t acknowledge the fact BB has won 1 playoff game in 9 years without him though. Is under .500. Has 3 winning seasons. At what point do you have to say there’s kind of a coincidence?

What chance has Bill been given to showcase what he can do without Brady?

Cleveland - a team with a mess of an ownership, managed to go 11-5 one year with Vinny Testeverde/Mark Rypien

In NE:

-2000: inherited a mess of a team from Pete Carroll

-2008: went 11-5 with a career backup

-2016: went 3-1 when his QB was suspended for deflating footballs

-2020: went 7-9 with a crap QB who is out of the league now, arguably one of the best coaching jobs we've seen from Bill given the lack of talent that year

-2021: went 10-7 with a rookie QB who is promising

Really the only two QBs he's had that could help him win were Brady and Mac. And with Mac it's only year 1. Come back to me in a few years.

 

[1960Pats]

As soon as someone provides an example of a superman QB dragging an average team to a Super Bowl and winning it this debate will be worth having… there isn’t one example of it happening.

But we can create a massive list of average QB’s winning a Super Bowl.

Fanboys can’t and won’t even attempt to try to debate this… because it’s where they’re take goes completely off the rails.

I haven't researched it... yet... but I don't think there's a massive list of average QBs winning a SB. But if there is, then the list of average HCs that won a SB is even longer. Bill has repeatedly told us that it's a player's game and he's right.

 

[All3Phases]

What chance has Bill been given to showcase what he can do without Brady?

Cleveland - a team with a mess of an ownership, manage to go 11-5 one year with Vinny Testeverde/Mark Rypien

In NE:

-2000: inherited a mess of a team from Pete Carroll

-2008: went 11-5 with a career backup

-2016: went 3-1 when his QB was suspended for deflating footballs

-2020: went 7-9 with a crap QB who is out of the league now

-2021: went 10-7 with a rookie QB who is promising

Really the only two QBs he's had that could help him win were Brady and Mac. And with Mac it's only year 1. Come back to me in a few years.

Again, you are just excuse making for one side. It’s a 9 year body of work. Cleveland made the playoffs 5 out of 6 yearsbefore he took over the team. They weren’t dysfunctional. Again 1 playoff appearance in 5 years. 2000 had a lot of talent on the roster and a pro bowl caliber qb, went 5-11. The next year was 0-2 before Brady played and then they immediately went 11-3 and won the super bowl. You have all the excuses laid out, which is fine. We will see what the future holds! But it’s hard to ignore the massive sample size without Brady.

But I’m also guessing on the other hand you’d say Brady went to a loaded team and quality franchise to have his success post BB right? If he failed would you said he’s 43 years old and went to a 7-9 team with the worst franchise in pro football that hasn’t made the playoffs in 15 years? My guess…probably not

 

[1960Pats]

The team was toast at the end of Brady's last season here - one and done with the goat. So it wasn't just TB or even mostly TB. We had just won 3 out of the past 5 super bowls, and should have won a 4th, the last of which wasn't due to Brady, either. Loved TB but it takes a lot more than having a great QB.

What a disgrace we had 1 losing season while rebuilding and resetting the salary cap, and now let's question every move and start bringing up the Cleveland Browns from 28 years ago.

Forget the Browns. What's Bill's record as the Pats HC without Brady? There's about 6 season's worth of games.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Again, you are just excuse making for one side. It’s a 9 year body of work. Cleveland made the playoffs 5 out of 6 yearsbefore he took over the team. They weren’t dysfunctional. Again 1 playoff appearance in 5 years. 2000 had a lot of talent on the roster and a pro bowl caliber qb, went 5-11. The next year was 0-2 before Brady played and then they immediately went 11-3 and won the super bowl. You have all the excuses laid out, which is fine. We will see what the future holds! But it’s hard to ignore the massive sample size without Brady.

But I’m also guessing on the other hand you’d say Brady went to a loaded team and quality franchise to have his success post BB right? If he failed would you said he’s 43 years old and went to a 7-9 team with the worst franchise in pro football that hasn’t made the playoffs in 15 years? My guess…probably not

He took over a 3-13 team in Cleveland in 1991. I call that a mess.

And of course Brady went to a loaded team. More loaded than any team he's ever played for. But look at brady's record the past few years vs the Rams and Saints - he's 1-7. He routinely beat those teams with Belichick. He's struggled in Tampa vs good defenses for the most part.

 

[All3Phases]

He took over a 3-13 team in Cleveland in 1991. I call that a mess.

And of course Brady went to a loaded team. More loaded than any team he's ever played for. But look at brady's record the past few years vs the Rams and Saints - he's 1-7. He routinely beat those teams with Belichick. He's struggled in Tampa vs good defenses for the most part.

Like I said, you have all the excuses loaded up for BB here, which is fine if you believe that. We will see what the future has in store for the Pats!

And ya we will have to disagree on the Brady portion, I have a feeling if BB took that team over you’d call it dysfunctional. And the stats vs LA and the Saints is pretty irrelevant, they’ve won a super bowl and went to the divisional round in 2 years there. That’d be like saying…hey remember when the Patriots could beat the Bills when they had Brady?

 

[1960Pats]

I have some catching up to do on the next installment of the Tom vs Bill argument.

I even got sucked in myself with one of my posts. I'm not sure that this debate will ever go away.

 

[Noexcusesfornumber5]

BB has been responsible for the New England Patriots on the field from the first tick off the clock in the first game of the 2000 season to the last second tick of this season and every second that has come between them. There is no reason to try to decide whose responsible for what. Coaches put a game plan in place and change as needed. They rely on players to execute it as reliably as they are able to do so, and as well as they have been prepared to do so (by the coaches). Every success and failure has both the players and coaches fingerprints on them. Anyone that considers BB vs. Brady to be an actual gradable thing is an either a troll, a media stooge, or an absolute moron.

 

[1960Pats]

Right... but he threatened a holdout.

And they didn't have the cap to keep him.

After the #s blew up in free agency, Hill demanded an increase.

The Chiefs are going to hurt without this guy, he was almost as important as Mahomes to that offense

I thought I heard something about Hill being pissed that he didn't get the ball from Mahomes enough, and that he wasn't coming back no matter what. It's too bad that he ended up in Miami but we're lucky that they don't have much of a QB.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Like I said, you have all the excuses loaded up for BB here, which is fine if you believe that. We will see what the future has in store for the Pats!

And ya we will have to disagree on the Brady portion, I have a feeling if BB took that team over you’d call it dysfunctional. And the stats vs LA and the Saints is pretty irrelevant, they’ve won a super bowl and went to the divisional round in 2 years there. That’d be like saying…hey remember when the Patriots could beat the Bills when they had Brady?

BB has been responsible for the New England Patriots on the field from the first tick off the clock in the first game of the 2000 season to the last second tick of this season and every second that has come between them. There is no reason to try to decide whose responsible for what. Coaches put a game plan in place and change as needed. They rely on players to execute it as reliably as they are able to do so, and as well as they have been prepared to do so (by the coaches). Every success and failure has both the players and coaches fingerprints on them. Anyone that considers BB vs. Brady to be an actual gradable thing is an either a troll, a media stooge, or an absolute moron.

BB has his fingers on this team more than anyone. He's the GM and coach. He builds the roster from 1-53. There is simply no one more responsible for the Pats success of the past 20 years than him. If he were just the coach and someone else was getting the groceries, I'd probably agree it was more Brady.

 

[All3Phases]

BB has his fingers on this team more than anyone. He's the GM and coach. He builds the roster from 1-53. There is simply no one more responsible for the Pats success of the past 20 years than him. If he were just the coach and someone else was getting the groceries, I'd probably agree it was more Brady.

And you are totally free to believe that, at some point the success should follow right if that’s the case?

 

[SHOWTIME15]

And you are totally free to believe that, at some point the success should follow right if that’s the case?

and it will. I've said it before, but I'll give Bill until 2023 to build a contender again. Putting together a super bowl winning team is incredibly hard because you have to assemble players 1-53. Much harder than picking a talented team and going there and winning a super bowl right away. By 2023, BIll would have had 4 seasons to turn things around. Year 1 sucked. Year 2 was good. Let's see what years 3-4 bring.

 

[All3Phases]

and it will. I've said it before, but I'll give Bill until 2023 to build a contender again. Putting together a super bowl winning team is incredibly hard because you have to assemble players 1-53. Much harder than picking a talented team and going there and winning a super bowl right away. By 2023, BIll would have had 4 seasons to turn things around. Year 1 sucked. Year 2 was good. Let's see what years 3-4 bring.

And that’s fine, we will see how it plays out. But like I said, you keep saying he’s the most important piece, he picks the players, he draws up the schemes etc etc. but the success is glaring with/without. It seemed a lot easier to build teams with Brady didn’t it?

And again, the Tampa thing you are reaching…they were 7-9 and didn’t make the playoffs for 15 years.