Secondary who plays which position? Depends on opponent?

[maineman209]

We have great depth at cornerback now and it is going to allow us to be more aggressive in the front seven. Plus this means another season where Julian Edelman can play wide receiver and not have to play corner back again.

The irony being that Edelman actually didn't suck at CB, at least not in comparison to some of the other guys the Pats had in the secondary that season.

 

[rookBoston]

I agree with the sentiment that titles like LCB and RCB don't work for the Patriots. It's an anachronism that doesn't describe the players and presumes too much about our defensive scheme.

In the Super Bowl, Patricia used Rowe underneath + either McCourty or Harmon over the top, top provide a double-team on Julio Jones. Rowe for his size, and the deep safety to take away the big play.

Last year, as the so-called #1 CB, Butler was commonly matched up in man coverage on the #2 receiver, not the #1. This is because they usually combined Ryan + McCourty on the #1.

This approach undermines the over-simple idea that LCB is the #1 CB and matches up with the #1 receiver in man, or that side of the field in zone. Who even plays like that anymore? It's way more complicated than that.

Pats are about creating matchups they like and using disguise to create turnovers.

Here's what I expect for our secondary in 2017:
- Gilmore and Butler will be the preferred starters in either man or zone coverage against 2-receiver packages.
- Gilmore is longer than Butler and likely to get the taller matchup when playing in man
- when scheming for a quick-dominant #1 receiver like Antonio Brown, Patricia is likely to give the task this year to Butler underneath with safety help over the top. This is good news for Butler because (unlike last year) it means he can take more risks jumping a route or undercutting for an INT because he knows he has help. Especially good news for him in his contract year, because he could be in line for a lot of INTs. This is why Ryan had so many INTs, he benefitted from his role in the scheme as the underneath corner in the double team
- using Butler in this way is made possible because Gilmore is a shutdown man corner on the other side and can lock down the #2 in single coverage
- when the double team has to come against a big tall dominant outside receiver, they can choose to put Rowe on it with safety help, instead of Butler, and slide Butler to the slot receiver (which is a luxury matchup). This strategy for Julio Jones in a 3-wide package, for example.
- Julio Jones in a 21-personnel look (2 RB 1 TE) Rowe comes off the field and you can try Butler with S help on Julio, or Gilmore alone to let the S drop into the box to shadow the second RB especially on running downs.
- for teams where the receiving corp is big and tall, I expect to see Rowe over Jones. For opponents with small quick receivers, Jones or Coleman likely playing the slot over of Rowe.

A better way to think of this might be that Butler is playing the Ty Law role and Gilmore is Otis Smith. Or, more recently, Butler as Revis and Gilmore as Browner.

Or i suppose you can call it LCB and RCB if that means something to you--doesn't to me.

 

[luuked]

The are a couple problems with your projected alignment ...

1) Gilmore has played RCB his entire career and Butler has played LCB his entire career. Swapping them may seem trivial on paper, but it's not in the real world. It's not all that often that a player who excels at LCB is also able to master the reverse footwork and body positioning that's required to play the other side equally as well (and vice versa with RCBs).

2) Butler's exceptional coverage ability derives from his highly developed ability to read plays and anticipate routes, rather than from his natural athleticism. For playing the slot, natural agility and quick CoD are generally more helpful for coverage than anticipation.

BUTLER: 5096/187
4.62/40 .. 1.62/10-yd .. 33.5" vert .. 118" long jump .. 4.27 shuttle .. 7.20 3-cone

ROWE: 6006/205
4.45/40 .. 1.56/10-yd .. 39" vert .. 125" long jump .. 3.97 shuttle .. 6.70 3-cone

GILMORE: 6004/190
4.40/40 .. 1.52/10-yd .. 36" vert .. 123" long jump .. 3.94 shuttle .. 6.61 3-cone

RYAN: 5111/191
4.56/49 .. 1.58/10-yd .. 32.5" vert .. 116" long jump .. 4.06 shuttle .. 6.69 3-cone

Gilmore has dropped down to cover the slot for a few plays or a series regularly during his career with the Bills.

Rowe played nickel/slot as a rookie for the Eagles in 2015. With the Pats last season, Ryan began the year as the starting RCB with Coleman as the primary nickel/slot CB sometimes subbing at RCB for Ryan, with Ryan then covering the slot). Once Rowe was acquired, the Pats tried a lot of different combinations of Rowe, Ryan, Coleman and the Jones boys working RCB and the slot and appeared to settle on Rowe at RCB with Ryan as the nickel/slot guy.

Last season, Butler was used in the slot for a fair amount of snaps over a couple of games and gave up a QB rating of 128.

So, my guess is that the base starting combo is most likely to be ...

LCB: Butler
RCB: Gilmore
Slot/Nickel CB: some combination of Rowe/Gilmore, varying with the game situation

NOTE: At least hypothetically, Rowe has the size to play nickel "safety" in the "Big Nickel" package. It'll be interesting to see what, if any, experimentation goes on with that in Camp/pre-season games.

Cyrus Jones (6.71 3-cone) also may be in the RCB/nickel/slot mix or possibly one of the UDFAs. There may also be some adjustments and/or more overlap with the "Big Nickel" and dime package snap-count distributions, as well as substitutions at safety in general.

IOW, I think there's likely to be a fair amount of experimentation, even extending into the regular season, to determine what combinations of five and six DBs works best in which situations. However, I strongly doubt that any of that involves Butler playing any position other than LCB.

Great effort posting but to be honest I don't care what the testing numbers look like: Rowe is not an inside corner. With everything we have seen so far he didn't show the physicality, flexibility or the anticipation to be efficient on the inside.

I think the hope is to run with Gilmore, Butler on the outside and Jones as slot CB with Rowe coming of the bench for specific matchups (e.g. double coverage on #1, ect.). If Jones can get over his mental hiccups I don't think there is anyone else that can push him for that slot position except maybe Jonathan Jones if he has an outstanding camp.

If neither of the Joneses can be trusted then despite everything you say Butler will be the prime player to be send inside. He is clearly a better fit there than Rowe or Gilmore.

All that being said, I love how all of this feels like a luxury problem.

 

[maineman209]

Great effort posting but to be honest I don't care what the testing numbers look like: Rowe is not an inside corner. With everything we have seen so far he didn't show the physicality, flexibility or the anticipation to be efficient on the inside.

I think the hope is to run with Gilmore, Butler on the outside and Jones as slot CB with Rowe coming of the bench for specific matchups (e.g. double coverage on #1, ect.). If Jones can get over his mental hiccups I don't think there is anyone else that can push him for that slot position except maybe Jonathan Jones if he has an outstanding camp.

If neither of the Joneses can be trusted then despite everything you say Butler will be the prime player to be send inside. He is clearly a better fit there than Rowe or Gilmore.

All that being said, I love how all of this feels like a luxury problem.

Projecting Rowe as the 5th/6th DB on the field in nickel/dime packages is not equivalent to saying, "he's the slot guy."

The thing is that the 3rd CB in the nickel isn't necessarily "the slot guy" (in the +/- 50% of nickel packages that use a CB rather than Harmon). That 3rd CB often may cover a boundary role to free up that CB to cover the slot. While Rowe (or CJ, for that matter), may directly cover the inside for specific matchups, he may also come in at RCB while Gilmore drops down and inside.

Similarly, when Harmon comes in for the "Big Nickel", he often replaces Chung while Chung drops inside in a quasi-LB role, and he sometimes covers deep to allow McCourty to drop down closer to the line to man-up on a specific potential pass-catcher.

Also, where the 5th/6th DB lines up (and who that 5th/6th DB is) likely depends on what type of offensive player Patricia is expecting to line up in the slot - a quick/shifty WR, a TE or an RB.

And pretty much anything can happen in the "dime".

Ryan played RCB almost exclusively last season until Rowe arrived. After that, both Ryan and Rowe were moved around a lot between RCB and some sort of "inside" role that was not necessarily always - for Rowe - to cover a shifty WR. His role appeared to be similar to the way Browner was sometimes used in 2014.

Also, while Rowe may not have been particularly "efficient" on the inside in 2016, he was also learning (on the fly) a brand new set of coverage schemes and field calls - probably more complex than he's played in previously. So there may have been some hesitations on his part that may not be a problem after a full summer and Camp.

Anyway, at this point, I'm still not seeing Butler in the slot on a regular basis as an optimal use of his strengths. Just the opposite. But, we'll see what develops.

My guess is that, aside from McCourty at (primarily) deep safety, Butler (primarily) at LCB and Gilmore (primarily) at RCB, we'll see a lot of mixing and matching in the secondary between week-1 and week-16 (even without any injuries).

 

[luuked]

Projecting Rowe as the 5th/6th DB on the field in nickel/dime packages is not equivalent to saying, "he's the slot guy."

The thing is that the 3rd CB in the nickel isn't necessarily "the slot guy" (in the +/- 50% of nickel packages that use a CB rather than Harmon). That 3rd CB often may cover a boundary role to free up that CB to cover the slot. While Rowe (or CJ, for that matter), may directly cover the inside for specific matchups, he may also come in at RCB while Gilmore drops down and inside.

Similarly, when Harmon comes in for the "Big Nickel", he often replaces Chung while Chung drops inside in a quasi-LB role, and he sometimes covers deep to allow McCourty to drop down closer to the line to man-up on a specific potential pass-catcher.

Also, where the 5th/6th DB lines up (and who that 5th/6th DB is) likely depends on what type of offensive player Patricia is expecting to line up in the slot - a quick/shifty WR, a TE or an RB.

And pretty much anything can happen in the "dime".

Ryan played RCB almost exclusively last season until Rowe arrived. After that, both Ryan and Rowe were moved around a lot between RCB and some sort of "inside" role that was not necessarily always - for Rowe - to cover a shifty WR. His role appeared to be similar to the way Browner was sometimes used in 2014.

Also, while Rowe may not have been particularly "efficient" on the inside in 2016, he was also learning (on the fly) a brand new set of coverage schemes and field calls - probably more complex than he's played in previously. So there may have been some hesitations on his part that may not be a problem after a full summer and Camp.

Anyway, at this point, I'm still not seeing Butler in the slot on a regular basis as an optimal use of his strengths. Just the opposite. But, we'll see what develops.

My guess is that, aside from McCourty at (primarily) deep safety, Butler (primarily) at LCB and Gilmore (primarily) at RCB, we'll see a lot of mixing and matching in the secondary between week-1 and week-16 (even without any injuries).

Again, great effort on the reply. Gotta appreciate that.

I didn't want to summarize your post to "Rowe == slot" at all. My personal opinion based on everything we have seen from Rowe so far is that his strengths don't align with what usually is required on the inside. I get that he wasn't in the system too long and especially the inside role requires a good understanding of schemes but athletically speaking he just seems to be more at home on the outside.

I fully agree that there will be a ton of mix and match and quite honestly the thought of that makes me pretty giddy. I think we have so much depth and players with unique strengths in our secondary that the upcoming season could be a gourmet dinner for Patricia.

 

[maineman209]

Again, great effort on the reply. Gotta appreciate that.

I didn't want to summarize your post to "Rowe == slot" at all. My personal opinion based on everything we have seen from Rowe so far is that his strengths don't align with what usually is required on the inside. I get that he wasn't in the system too long and especially the inside role requires a good understanding of schemes but athletically speaking he just seems to be more at home on the outside.

I fully agree that there will be a ton of mix and match and quite honestly the thought of that makes me pretty giddy. I think we have so much depth and players with unique strengths in our secondary that the upcoming season could be a gourmet dinner for Patricia.

This secondary could also provide a veritable feast for the pass-rushers, too.

You're spot-on about this being a "luxury problem". It's like debating which multi-carat diamond is best placed where in the platinum setting.

In 2016, in spite of being middle-of-the-pack in INTs, Sacks and takeaways, the defense was #1 in points allowed and rushing TDs allowed, #3 in first downs allowed and rushing yards allowed, and top-10 in pretty much every other defensive category.

Many of the defensive players, beyond the DBs, are significantly above league average in athleticism and versatile well-beyond their traditional positional roles. McCourty, Chung, Butler, Harmon, HT, Nink and Branch have played together for a few years now under the same DC. It's beginning to remind me a bit of the defenses of '03-'04 and '06.

 

[mgteich]

Great effort posting but to be honest I don't care what the testing numbers look like: Rowe is not an inside corner. With everything we have seen so far he didn't show the physicality, flexibility or the anticipation to be efficient on the inside.

I think the hope is to run with Gilmore, Butler on the outside and Jones as slot CB with Rowe coming of the bench for specific matchups (e.g. double coverage on #1, ect.). If Jones can get over his mental hiccups I don't think there is anyone else that can push him for that slot position except maybe Jonathan Jones if he has an outstanding camp.

If neither of the Joneses can be trusted then despite everything you say Butler will be the prime player to be send inside. He is clearly a better fit there than Rowe or Gilmore.

All that being said, I love how all of this feels like a luxury problem.

I disagree with the notion that Cyrus Jones the first off the bench as our slot back. As was the case last year, I expect Rowe to be the first off the bench, this time with Butler inside. Rowe is an outside corner.

Jones may move up to have more reps than Rowe. As of now, he has to improve a lot to beat out Coleman for reps in the slot. If Jones moves past Rowe, this will be extremely good news for the team, especially for 2018 when Butler is unlikely to be here.