Secondary who plays which position? Depends on opponent?

[zipster9]

The best players will always be on the field on game time.

What will it look like?

Gilmore will be LCB. Don't think he will be moving around.

Butler always at RCB? How about Rowe? He is better than the remaining CBs...

Do you really want Cyrus to play in the CB position?

If playing Seahawks, would Butler play slot?

 

[patsinthesnow]

I think the Pats likely borrow from what the Broncos do with their CBs:

LCB: Gilmore
RCB: Butler

LCB: Gilmore
RCB: Rowe
Slot: Butler

Butler will follow Landry, Sanders, Brown & Gilmore will follow Parker, D. Thomas, M. Bryant.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I think the Pats likely borrow from what the Broncos do with their CBs:

LCB: Gilmore
RCB: Butler

LCB: Gilmore
RCB: Rowe
Slot: Butler

Butler will follow Landry, Sanders, Brown & Gilmore will follow Parker, D. Thomas, M. Bryant.

This seems right to me.

 

[mgteich]

The best players will always be on the field on game time.

What will it look like?

Gilmore will be LCB. Don't think he will be moving around.

Butler always at RCB? How about Rowe? He is better than the remaining CBs...

Do you really want Cyrus to play in the CB position?

If playing Seahawks, would Butler play slot?

2 CB SETS
Gilmore and Butler
They could played either way

3 CB SETS
Gilmore and Rowe outside, either way
Butler in the slot

CYRUS JONES
He is a backup CB, competing with J Jones and Coleman for backup reps.

 

[DarrylS]

How will they work Jason McCourty into this rotation?

 

[maineman209]

I think the Pats likely borrow from what the Broncos do with their CBs:

LCB: Gilmore
RCB: Butler

LCB: Gilmore
RCB: Rowe
Slot: Butler

Butler will follow Landry, Sanders, Brown & Gilmore will follow Parker, D. Thomas, M. Bryant.

The are a couple problems with your projected alignment ...

1) Gilmore has played RCB his entire career and Butler has played LCB his entire career. Swapping them may seem trivial on paper, but it's not in the real world. It's not all that often that a player who excels at LCB is also able to master the reverse footwork and body positioning that's required to play the other side equally as well (and vice versa with RCBs).

2) Butler's exceptional coverage ability derives from his highly developed ability to read plays and anticipate routes, rather than from his natural athleticism. For playing the slot, natural agility and quick CoD are generally more helpful for coverage than anticipation.

BUTLER: 5096/187
4.62/40 .. 1.62/10-yd .. 33.5" vert .. 118" long jump .. 4.27 shuttle .. 7.20 3-cone

ROWE: 6006/205
4.45/40 .. 1.56/10-yd .. 39" vert .. 125" long jump .. 3.97 shuttle .. 6.70 3-cone

GILMORE: 6004/190
4.40/40 .. 1.52/10-yd .. 36" vert .. 123" long jump .. 3.94 shuttle .. 6.61 3-cone

RYAN: 5111/191
4.56/49 .. 1.58/10-yd .. 32.5" vert .. 116" long jump .. 4.06 shuttle .. 6.69 3-cone

Gilmore has dropped down to cover the slot for a few plays or a series regularly during his career with the Bills.

Rowe played nickel/slot as a rookie for the Eagles in 2015. With the Pats last season, Ryan began the year as the starting RCB with Coleman as the primary nickel/slot CB sometimes subbing at RCB for Ryan, with Ryan then covering the slot). Once Rowe was acquired, the Pats tried a lot of different combinations of Rowe, Ryan, Coleman and the Jones boys working RCB and the slot and appeared to settle on Rowe at RCB with Ryan as the nickel/slot guy.

Last season, Butler was used in the slot for a fair amount of snaps over a couple of games and gave up a QB rating of 128.

So, my guess is that the base starting combo is most likely to be ...

LCB: Butler
RCB: Gilmore
Slot/Nickel CB: some combination of Rowe/Gilmore, varying with the game situation

NOTE: At least hypothetically, Rowe has the size to play nickel "safety" in the "Big Nickel" package. It'll be interesting to see what, if any, experimentation goes on with that in Camp/pre-season games.

Cyrus Jones (6.71 3-cone) also may be in the RCB/nickel/slot mix or possibly one of the UDFAs. There may also be some adjustments and/or more overlap with the "Big Nickel" and dime package snap-count distributions, as well as substitutions at safety in general.

IOW, I think there's likely to be a fair amount of experimentation, even extending into the regular season, to determine what combinations of five and six DBs works best in which situations. However, I strongly doubt that any of that involves Butler playing any position other than LCB.

 

[maineman209]

How will they work Jason McCourty into this rotation?

I'm not really sure how much man/press-man Jason has played during his career in TEN. If it's not much, he might not be a fit at all.

Except possibly at deep safety.

 

[Kontradiction]

I'm not really sure how much man/press-man Jason has played during his career in TEN. If it's not much, he might not be a fit at all.

Except possibly at deep safety.

Mostly zone. Not a fit here at corner. If the Pats signed him, it would have been at safety.

 

[patsinthesnow]

The are a couple problems with your projected alignment ...

1) Gilmore has played RCB his entire career and Butler has played LCB his entire career. Swapping them may seem trivial on paper, but it's not in the real world. It's not all that often that a player who excels at LCB is also able to master the reverse footwork and body positioning that's required to play the other side equally as well (and vice versa with RCBs).

2) Butler's exceptional coverage ability derives from his highly developed ability to read plays and anticipate routes, rather than from his natural athleticism. For playing the slot, natural agility and quick CoD are generally more helpful for coverage than anticipation.

BUTLER: 5096/187
4.62/40 .. 1.62/10-yd .. 33.5" vert .. 118" long jump .. 4.27 shuttle .. 7.20 3-cone

ROWE: 6006/205
4.45/40 .. 1.56/10-yd .. 39" vert .. 125" long jump .. 3.97 shuttle .. 6.70 3-cone

GILMORE: 6004/190
4.40/40 .. 1.52/10-yd .. 36" vert .. 123" long jump .. 3.94 shuttle .. 6.61 3-cone

RYAN: 5111/191
4.56/49 .. 1.58/10-yd .. 32.5" vert .. 116" long jump .. 4.06 shuttle .. 6.69 3-cone

Gilmore has dropped down to cover the slot for a few plays or a series regularly during his career with the Bills.

Rowe played nickel/slot as a rookie for the Eagles in 2015. With the Pats last season, Ryan began the year as the starting RCB with Coleman as the primary nickel/slot CB sometimes subbing at RCB for Ryan, with Ryan then covering the slot). Once Rowe was acquired, the Pats tried a lot of different combinations of Rowe, Ryan, Coleman and the Jones boys working RCB and the slot and appeared to settle on Rowe at RCB with Ryan as the nickel/slot guy.

Last season, Butler was used in the slot for a fair amount of snaps over a couple of games and gave up a QB rating of 128.

So, my guess is that the base starting combo is most likely to be ...

LCB: Butler
RCB: Gilmore
Slot/Nickel CB: some combination of Rowe/Gilmore, varying with the game situation

NOTE: At least hypothetically, Rowe has the size to play nickel "safety" in the "Big Nickel" package. It'll be interesting to see what, if any, experimentation goes on with that in Camp/pre-season games.

Cyrus Jones (6.71 3-cone) also may be in the RCB/nickel/slot mix or possibly one of the UDFAs. There may also be some adjustments and/or more overlap with the "Big Nickel" and dime package snap-count distributions, as well as substitutions at safety in general.

IOW, I think there's likely to be a fair amount of experimentation, even extending into the regular season, to determine what combinations of five and six DBs works best in which situations. However, I strongly doubt that any of that involves Butler playing any position other than LCB.

Thanks. I just assumed Gilmore played LCB as most #1 CBs do. It's good that him & Butler can stay at their natural positions.

Regarding Butler's athleticism, I think there are rare players that just couldn't translate their abilities to testing numbers (Dalvin Cook could prove to be another one).

I consider Butler's #s moot when he's been stride for stride with Odell, Antonio Brown, & Desean Jackson down the field.

PFF did mention that Butler's struggled in the slot (not sure how true it is). He was injured the beginning of the season and got toasted by Landry when he's owned him relatively the rest of his career.

Interesting note on Rowe. Tough to see a 6'1 guy in the slot but if he can do it sign me up.

 

[BobDigital]

Good post and i hate to do such a short one in reply but i just need to point 1 thing out i didn't like. You mention Butler's combine numbers like that is what he is. Not the case.

Just by the eye ball test he plays faster than those numbers and i think just had an off day. It is true he is not a super talented player in any case but lets not judge a guy with just 1 work out. Clearly he is faster and quicker than those listed times. Antonio Brown would probably tell you that.

 

[maineman209]

Thanks. I just assumed Gilmore played LCB as most #1 CBs do. It's good that him & Butler can stay at their natural positions.

Regarding Butler's athleticism, I think there are rare players that just couldn't translate their abilities to testing numbers (Dalvin Cook could prove to be another one).

I consider Butler's #s moot when he's been stride for stride with Odell, Antonio Brown, & Desean Jackson down the field.

PFF did mention that Butler's struggled in the slot (not sure how true it is). He was injured the beginning of the season and got toasted by Landry when he's owned him relatively the rest of his career.

Interesting note on Rowe. Tough to see a 6'1 guy in the slot but if he can do it sign me up.

It seems to the that the #1, #2, #3 CB terminology, and other common positional references, are a holdover from the days when offensive schemes were simpler - TEs mostly lined up on the offensive right (defensive left), making that the "strong side". An offense's "best" WR lined up mostly on the offensive right, so the defense put its "best" (#1) CB over there, etc.

Nowadays, WRs - and TEs - and RBs - might line up anywhere. So, instead of your RCB simply being your "2nd-best" CB, and your (specialty package) "nickel/slot guy" being your 3rd best, your defense needs guys of equivalent skill level at at all three spots, almost full time. And each needs to be really good at the specific skill set that each position requires.

I also think there's a difference in the specific athleticism required to cover a guy stride-for-stride on a downfield route where "traffic" is relatively light on a play that may take a few seconds to develop (and where elite route-reading and anticipation are extremely helpful), and the type of athleticism that's required in the area close to the LoS where a WR like Edelman can make a 90-degree jump cut off a head fake and get open for a timing throw 2.5 seconds after the snap - and are where pick-plays can be gotten away with because there's more "traffic congestion" to begin with.

I'd be among the first to acknowledge that guys don't always play to their testing numbers. But still, those testing numbers represent a ceiling of sorts for what they may physically be able to handle in specific situations. In that regard, Gilmore, Rowe and Ryan have at least demonstrated a higher ceiling than Butler for their ability to handle bang-bang plays out of the slot.

BTW, Landry (Jarvis, I assume) may work mostly out of the slot, however his testing numbers were ...
... 4.59 shuttle .. 7.56 3-cone.

 

[maineman209]

Good post and i hate to do such a short one in reply but i just need to point 1 thing out i didn't like. You mention Butler's combine numbers like that is what he is. Not the case.

Just by the eye ball test he plays faster than those numbers and i think just had an off day. It is true he is not a super talented player in any case but lets not judge a guy with just 1 work out. Clearly he is faster and quicker than those listed times. Antonio Brown would probably tell you that.

Not sure what "off day" you're referring to, but I'm not simply extrapolating from one specific play or matchup in which Butler wasn't successful.

I also readily acknowledge that "Butler plays faster than his testing numbers". He's able to do so because he's such a superior diagnostician. He almost always knows the route that his assigned guy is going to run before the ball is even snapped. This allows him to optimize his position and "run the route for the receiver" to the degree that - in most cases, it completely negates whatever difference in "tested speed" there may be between him and the guy he's assigned to cover. It's not because Butler is physically "faster and quicker" than he timed, it's because his mental quickness more than compensates for his less-than-elite athleticism (not "poor", merely less than "elite").

It compensates under most circumstances, that is.

As a boundary corner who's mostly covering relatively longer/deeper routes that are run through (relatively) light traffic open spaces, he's optimizing the effect of his diagnostic abilities.

Circumstances are different in the "high-traffic areas" within five yards or so of the LoS where quick-cut option routes are the norm and a receiver may only need to get "open" by an arm's length for a split-second for a pass to be completed. Under those circumstances, the ability to anticipate a route may not be as consistently effective as the physical ability to make a blazingly quick CoD.

So, I'm not "judging" (as in "condemning") Butler based on this testing numbers. Testing numbers are obviously not the be-all/end-all for evaluating what a player can do on the field. However they can provide a frame of reference for projecting his "ceiling" with regard to his potential effectiveness under various sets of circumstances.

Butler is an exceptional boundary CB on the left side. That doesn't necessarily mean that he'll also be an exceptional CB covering guys like Edelman on 5-yard slants and in-cuts. That's a different job with different physical requirements - requirements that Butler may not be able to quite meet based on his agility testing numbers (especially compared to those of Ryan, Rowe and Gilmore) .

BTW - although Brown tested better in the 40 and in his 10-yd split at his pro day (Central Mich.), at the Combine, he posted ...
4.57/40 .. 1.58/10yd .. 4.18/shuttle .. 6.98/3-cone

 

[Nunchucks]

Don't write off Cyrus homes so quickly. Give the guy a shot to prove himself in camp.

 

[mgteich]

Don't write off Cyrus homes so quickly. Give the guy a shot to prove himself in camp.

No one is writing off Cyrus Jones.

He has a roster spot. His reps will depend on what he shows in camp, in the pre-season and in practices.

 

[patriot1136]

Thats the best part about BB and the Pats. They like to mix it up and give different looks. I feel that most of our guys are pretty versatile.

 

[maineman209]

Don't write off Cyrus homes so quickly. Give the guy a shot to prove himself in camp.

Agree.

CJ (5097/197) posted some very good testing numbers:
... 4.49/40 .. 1.55/10yd .. 4.21/shuttle .. 6.71/3-cone

On the highlight tape of his returns at Alabama, he also appears to possess nitrous-injector level acceleration. I don't recall much about the 147 snaps he played in 2016 at CB. On the one hand, I don't think his name was called very often when he was in there (a GOOD thing for a CB). On the other, I seem to recall him being scored on once.

The only issue I have with him is the horrible "yips" he showed on his return fumbles, which may be a lack of concentration and/or overeagerness. So far, it's overshadowed whatever talent/skill he may have - and he needs to fix it this summer.

Coleman (5105/185) was no slouch in testing, either:
... 4.43/40 .. 1.58/10yd .. 3.98/shuttle .. 6.61/3-cone (plus 37.5" vert & 124" long jump)

I feel like his ceiling may be "competent backup" and he may have already hit it. I don't know that he'd flat out lose any games for the Pats, but he might make solid coverage a bit more difficult. It's possible that Rowe was specifically acquired to replace him as a member of the "starting six", but it's equally possible that Rowe's acquisition was merely opportunistic.

As the primary incumbents in the DB-Reserve corps, these two may well represent a bigger hill for the UDFA rookies to get over than any of us think.

Jon Jones (5091/186), has the long speed that might make one wonder why HE isn't being given return opportunities. OTOH, his agility testing wasn't particularly elite:
... 4.33/40 .. 1.47/10yd .. 4.25/shuttle .. 7.25/3-cone

JJ had one real "tryout" at CB - about half the snaps against the Browns (week-5?), but only token snaps in the last two or three games of the season after that. OTOH, he was active every week on special teams, averaging over 19 per game (max ST snaps was about 22, and only Grissom and Ebner hit that number).

 

[jah]

Butler is arguably a better cornerback than Gilmore and has always played on the left side. Gilmore has always played on the right. Why swap?

 

[Nunchucks]

Agree.

CJ (5097/197) posted some very good testing numbers:
... 4.49/40 .. 1.55/10yd .. 4.21/shuttle .. 6.71/3-cone

On the highlight tape of his returns at Alabama, he also appears to possess nitrous-injector level acceleration. I don't recall much about the 147 snaps he played in 2016 at CB. On the one hand, I don't think his name was called very often when he was in there (a GOOD thing for a CB). On the other, I seem to recall him being scored on once.

The only issue I have with him is the horrible "yips" he showed on his return fumbles, which may be a lack of concentration and/or overeagerness. So far, it's overshadowed whatever talent/skill he may have - and he needs to fix it this summer.

Coleman (5105/185) was no slouch in testing, either:
... 4.43/40 .. 1.58/10yd .. 3.98/shuttle .. 6.61/3-cone (plus 37.5" vert & 124" long jump)

I feel like his ceiling may be "competent backup" and he may have already hit it. I don't know that he'd flat out lose any games for the Pats, but he might make solid coverage a bit more difficult. It's possible that Rowe was specifically acquired to replace him as a member of the "starting six", but it's equally possible that Rowe's acquisition was merely opportunistic.

As the primary incumbents in the DB-Reserve corps, these two may well represent a bigger hill for the UDFA rookies to get over than any of us think.

Jon Jones (5091/186), has the long speed that might make one wonder why HE isn't being given return opportunities. OTOH, his agility testing wasn't particularly elite:
... 4.33/40 .. 1.47/10yd .. 4.25/shuttle .. 7.25/3-cone

JJ had one real "tryout" at CB - about half the snaps against the Browns (week-5?), but only token snaps in the last two or three games of the season after that. OTOH, he was active every week on special teams, averaging over 19 per game (max ST snaps was about 22, and only Grissom and Ebner hit that number).

The other thing about Cyrus is he is a converted CB. He has not played the position as long as other players.

 

[maineman209]

The other thing about Cyrus is he is a converted CB. He has not played the position as long as other players.

Well, he switched from WR to CB after his freshman year, so three years as a starting CB at Alabama. Richard Sherman switched from WR to CB in his junior year, so only TWO seasons of college experience. I seem to recall that he did okay.

BTW, "converted" always seems like a religious thing to me, as if the guy abandoned "Wide-Receiverism" and became a Fundamentalist Cornerback.

 

[Addictive]

We have great depth at cornerback now and it is going to allow us to be more aggressive in the front seven. Plus this means another season where Julian Edelman can play wide receiver and not have to play corner back again.