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Report: Patriots fired up over what they've seen from Jamie Collins

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by Bradyking12, Jun 28, 2019.

  1. SammyBlueCat

    SammyBlueCat PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Does he possess Cat like quickness?

    I have seen pictures on this site of Jamie looking heavier while wearing his Cleveland uniform.

    I will of course concede that the pictures I remember may have simply been the results of an odd camera angle.
     
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  2. captain stone

    captain stone Pro Bowl Player

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    One of the advantages of no longer living in NE is that I don't have to be subjected to witnessing the Dead Sux' constant losing...If Benny Cherry was fired less than 2! years after winning a WS, how much rope will Dumbrowski be given when his team fails to even make the POs this year?
     
  3. captain stone

    captain stone Pro Bowl Player

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    To paraphrase Julian Edelman & Tedy Bruschi: he didn't want it enough.

    Pierre Woods is Dead to me. He occupies a special place in my own personal Hell, alongside Chris Harper & Eric Alexander.

    That one play was one of the main reasons why we lost...had he actually wanted it enough, his recovery would've placed us in 47-yard FG range (Vagiants' 30).
     
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  4. dreighver

    dreighver Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    Need to cutback his food intake.

    Probably should move him to another room while you feed the others. Or put the others' bowls on a shelf that he can't reach.
     
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  5. Wozzy

    Wozzy On the Game Day Roster

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    Yes, it's your theory, though I'm sure you're not alone. Generally the best players in the league lead their team and very often the league in stats. When you're talking about the team that won the Super Bowl that means the defense is particularly good. The notion that someone can fall backwards into leading their team in almost every defensive stat and not be among the best defenders is about as absurd a take that has been uttered in a football forum.

    Now we can't use stats to determine who is good, wins and losses, Pro Bowl nods... we just need to use Andy's eyeball test and trust he's telling the truth.

    Aaron Donald had 21 sacks, is he good? Darius Leonard led the entire league in tackles and solo tackles, is he good? Here are the league leaders in defensive stats, it's on a spread sheet so you can toggle the league leaders to the top. Funny thing about the top, it's a "who's who" of the best players in the NFL, you will find an asterisk next to all the Pro Bowl and All Pro players... strange coincidence I guess?

    2018 NFL Defense | Pro-Football-Reference.com

    Stats are a measurement of production, stats on one of the best defenses in the league are production that resulted in wins. Also Collins film is better than most every other defender at that time because he was making a lot of plays and a sack/interception/forced fumble looks even better on film than it does on a spread sheet. Have you watched any film? Your whole premise rides on the notion that I have never watched games, I simply read box scores in my basement.

    And PS, Collins was traded because he was grousing over money, an obscene amount of money they weren't going to pay him... that must mean he's not very good... like other players they traded under similar conditions like Chandler Jones or Brandin Cooks.

    Laughable...
     
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  6. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Sure when you create a straw man if course it seems odd. If you listen to what I said instead of changing it into something you could argue against you might learn something.

    Tackles, regardless of whether the teams wins the SB or not are a horrible way to judge a player. As I said context matters. Watching the plays matters. Basing everything on the number of tackles is simply ignorant, for at least the following reasons
    -there is no quality function to a tackle stat. I can run at player a and gain 12 yards before he makes the tackle or run at player b and gain 2 yards before he makes the tackle and it all looks the same on a stat sheet
    -in the running game offenses will tend to run more to weakness or mismatch. Running more often right at you will result in you making more tackles. Combined with the first point this devalues tackle stats significantly.
    -in the passing game good coverage means they don’t throw at you or don’t complete the jaws when they do. Making tackles on pass plays does not necessarily indicate positive play and nay represent negative play.
    -for these reasons it’s totally incorrect to say the best players lead their teams in tackles.
    -now if you watch the actual plays then you can determine the QUALITY that goes with the quantity. Perfect example: in 2002 against the chargers Ted Johnson made something like 17 tackles. A comment was made that he was the only player on the defense that showed up. Film review identified that he made those tackles almost exclusively when they ran right at him, and he allowed over 200 yards on those carries. He was abused and picked on and finally got off the block after getting blown back 10 yards. He was in fact the worst player on the field that day.
    Relying in stats without watching football leads to misjudging things like that.


    Now? You never could exclusively use stats to determine who is a better player and certainly not to determine wins and losses.
    Problem voting is largely stat based, which is exactly why it’s a joke.


    1) not sure where I ever said only MY analysis of play. But ANY competent analysis of play is far better than relying on stats.
    2) If your opinion was based upon the actual football plays rather than a stat sheet then we would have room for disagreement. But arguing that stats are all that matters diminishes any conclusion you make.

    You made my point. That list is nowhere near the best 20 defensive players in the league.

    You seem to be trying to change my argument to that I am saying stats and good play are mutually exclusive. I’ve said nothing of the sort.
    I’ve said stats aren’t the only criteria and they are often misleading.
    Are you saying that was a list of the 20 best defensive players in the league?

    Certainly not an exact measure, as you are implying.

    Elandon Roberts had more tackles last year than
    Flowers
    Hightower
    Gilmore
    Harmon
    Guy.
    Are you saying he was better? Your argument so far says you are.
    Jonathan jones has more tackles and interceptions than Stephon Gilmore. Was he better?


    Who made the tackle on which play is not what resulted in wins. Your argument implies that every play made was a success because the team had a win in record.


    I watched every play of every game that season at least once live and once on tape, and most of them multiple times on tape.
    My premise isn’t that you simply read Box scores, your argument is.
    You are arguing the best player is a black and white decision solely determined by stats.
    I am saying stats are a small part of the picture.
    If you want to discuss that based upon film review you think Collins was the best player on that defense that’s a different discussion than the one you are having.
    You have literally said BECAUSE STATS and argue that stats tell the whole story. They simply don’t.
    If you can seriously tell me that watching the entirety of the 2014 Patriots season left you with the belief that Collins was better than Hightower, then we just shouldn’t discuss football with each other.
    How he was also better than wilfork and revis is something I can’t come close to agreeing with. Imo McCourty and nink were also better bit those are debatable.

    That is an opinion, not a fact. A more common opinion was that Collins was freelancing and bb became fed up and got rid of him. He did cut his playing time way back before trading him. They could have kept him the rest of the season and gotten the same return so something seems awry.


    Those players were kept through the season and treaded in the offseason with no reduction in playing time or rumors that they were traded because if their play.
     
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  7. Wozzy

    Wozzy On the Game Day Roster

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    That's one of the longest rants about nothing I've ever read, which again hinges on me not watching any game film and you being some sort of film guru. Funny stuff coach... You’re an expert, and I’m a novice… it’s one thing to double down on wrong, it’s another thing to be delusional, insulting and smug about it. We’re anonymous here, you don’t know anything about me so stop pretending you do.

    Also you have a sick fascination with tackles while ignoring the remaining stats because they completely obliterate this long winded diatribe on why "tackles are no good."

    We'll just pretend that Collins didn't lead the team in punching the ball out of opponents hands at the highest rate on the team as well as leading the team in fumble recoveries, he led the entire team in interceptions, and again was a 250 pound guy who led all LB's in passes defended, he was 3rd best at making tackles behind the line of scrimmage, 4th in total defensive snaps, 4th in QB hits and sacks.

    I suppose Bill played him so many snaps because he was so terrible?

    I'm not putting words in your mouth or perverting anything you've said, you think stats are unimportant in relation to your eyes, but when you respond to me you have an unnatural fascination with "tackles" alone, which shows a clear attempt to deflect from the complete body of work.

    In your eyes the totality of his stats is not among the most productive players on the team, a Super Bowl winning team I might add. That's not only patently wrong, it's glaringly wrong, if you honestly addressed me about the stats you wouldn't have tunnel vision on tackles alone.

    And btw tackles are a great way to view a player, tackles are a good thing but solo tackles are even more impressive, so are plays made behind the opponents line of scrimmage. And you're trying to paint a picture of Collins as a player always making mistakes and chasing after people to make tackles... that is also patently wrong and laughable.

    The guy was a force, he's a 250 pound linebacker who they trusted to cover RB's and slot receivers in the flat, that's how you get called the best defensive player by Hightower, the only other argument for best linebacker. He’s older now, coming off knee surgery so he may not be that anymore. Also nobody denies he was a malcontent in 2016.

    BB compared him to Lawrence Taylor, he made All Pro and Pro Bowl teams, he led the team in nearly every statistical category… I think that trumps your ability to break down film there Lombardi. But you do lead a rich fantasy life...

    Let's just agree to disagree.
     
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  8. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I don’t know how many times I have to say something for you to understand.
    It’s about me giving my evaluation of the play on the field and you arguing that stats replace that.
    That’s it.
    Your argument has been all about stats.
    I am saying you cannot judge defensive players by stats because they do not reflect what you think they do.
    I am not saying if you actually watched and evaluated the play my judgment is better than yours but that you are using a poor method of analysis.

    Nope. The other stats do not make a case either. I have pointed that out.



    And he was among the better players. Which of those do you think separates him from Hightower? Revis? Wilfork? McCourty? ninkovich? I’m talking about all plays all year long. Having 3 passes defenses instead of 2 doesn’t have the impact you want to pretend it does.

    Now you are being dumb.
    I did not say he was terrible I said he was good
    I also said
    1) judging defensive players by statistics is ignorant, incomplete and inaccurate
    2) watching every play of every game Collins was not the best player on the defense.

    The fact that you have to argue against a made up POV that I have never even implied says a lot about your argument.

    I’ve said many time.
    1) tackles are a horrible stat to use to judge a player or compare players.
    2) the other stats are not significant to make the judgment you are making. I have addressed all of them.


    Huh? When did I say that?
    I said
    1) you can’t judge defensive players accurate with just statistics
    2) he wasn’t the best player on the defense

    Again, the fact that you have to make up a point to attribute to me to argue is very telling


    I’ve addressed all of them many times.

    I have pointed out the numerous flaws in tackle statistics. If you think a tackle 20 yards down field is the same as a tackle 2 yards downfield or a tackle after 4 yards on 3rd and 3 is the same as a tackle after 2 yards I really don’t know how to have a reasonable discussion with you. If you think making a lot of tackles on pass plays is a sign of quality or that getting run at and making more tackles makers you better than dominating your area so they won’t run there we are just in different planes in this discussion
    Maybe that’s a sign this is a pointless effort.

    If you want to give an evaluation based upon play in the field that’s a worthy conversation (let’s leave out the teammate complements though for obvious reasons).
    To your points all LBs playing for the patriots have to cover rbs and slot receivers who come into their zone.
    And Hightower in 2014 was clearly and inarguably better than Collins.

    No he didn’t. He may have mentioned a similarity are discussed both in the same conversation but he didn’t compare Collins favorably to Lawrence Taylor.

    [quote\he made All Pro and Pro Bowl teams, he led the team in nearly every statistical category… I think that trumps your ability to break down film there Lombardi. But you do lead a rich fantasy life...[/quote]
    Any capable persons evaluation of a player when they watch every play is miles better than reading statistics or counting pro Bowl votes. You don’t have to agree with my evaluation but you need to accept that a real evaluation is a better judgment than statistics. If you actually offered one, based on the real plays that occurred we could accept that BORH USING THE CORRECT STANDARD we disagree. And that would be fine. But you are trying to replace evaluating 1000 plays of football with # of tackles with no respect to quality, the leaping to “3rd most tfl” “3 pd because that’s one more than other linebackers or Vince wilfork” or a couple of turnovers are the only things that matter.

    Clearly.
     
  9. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Anytime I see what appears to be someone talking to himself (due to the ignore function, I cannot see the quotes) + almost any of these specific statements, I immediately know who it is.

    Save yourself while you still can.
     
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  10. Wozzy

    Wozzy On the Game Day Roster

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    His main responses seem to be: "I know you are, but what am I?" And: "Facts aren't useful, my eyeball test is all that works." And: "I responded to everything" without actually responding to counterpoints, ignoring them and saying you responded is the same as responding apparently. The final stroke of genius has to be "I am an expert on film breakdown and coaching," more than me/you and everyone here for sure, but BB as well... apparently.

    Stats, otherwise known as the measurement of production, are worthless and the best (unquantifiable) method of evaluation is only available in his brain box.

    Ignore seems to be the best method for knowitalls who's only factual evidence is "because I say so."
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
  11. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I thought you were agreeing to disagree?

    Literally nothing I have said can be construed that way.


    I have explicitly said numerous times that if you analyzed the play your viewpoint would be as valid as mine, but relying solely on stats diminishes yours compared to ANYONES that is based upon watching the plays.



    I have addressed every single point you have made. Every time you repeat it. That’s why I break out posts and respond to points separately, to show I am addressing each point. You are stating the opposite of the truth.

    Now you are lying. I said nothing of the sort. In fact please show me where I even implied anything such as this.
    This is a very weak move by you.
    I said my opinion is based upon evaluating he actual play on the field and that is now accurate that adding up stats. I have said numerous times that I am not saying my evaluation is better than anyone else’s providing that person actually did an evaluation.

    Stats are flawed. Yes the best method of evaluating a football player is to watch them play football. Yes that is not quantifiable. Few things that are subjective opinions are quantifiable. That doesn’t mean a subjective analysis is less meaningful than using incomplete, misleading, context lacking, numbers that represent only a small fraction of the quality of play. I have listed dozens of reasons why.

    You should ignore because at this point you are acting like a child who got caught lying and is lashing out at the person who caught them.
    If you want to have a serious discussion, focus on making a cogent argument rather than distorting and blatantly lying about mine.
     
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  12. Wozzy

    Wozzy On the Game Day Roster

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    Literally everything you've said is "no it's not" then you give zero evidence beyond "because I say so." Sorry I don't accept nor buy your expertise as a reasonable point of debate, in fact it's farcical on an anonymous fansite to use your supposed film breakdown expertise as a reason for anything.

    Again, I don't watch games, you do, you watch hours of film... laughable. I've watched every Patriot game for well over the last two decades and have been posting about it, previously on the Boston.com website since the advent of the internet. Your assumption that I never watch games is about as ludicrous as your explanation of what BB really meant when he compared Collins to Lawrence Taylor. It wasn't really up for debate, he simply did. Also I watch games, I don't just read box scores.

    You ignored the meat of my argument and instead you went on a long diatribe about why tackle stats aren't important, you love to hear yourself talk. And when I had to repeat myself yet again asking about all the other stats he led the team in, you offhandedly and quickly brushed it off as nothing, as worthless as tackles... yes, sacks, forced fumbles, interceptions... these things are trivial.

    Your eyeballs and expertise aren't admissible in court, sorry. Let's trust the All Pro and Pro Bowl voters instead. You're here telling us the guy who Hightower called the best defensive player on the team wasn't... guess we're all wrong and you're right, because you're an expert and Hightower reads too many box scores.

    It's your world coach, the rest of us are just living in it...
     
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    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
  13. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You have literally made up words, ideas, beliefs, opinions that I have not said and attributed them to me so you could argue.
    That is truly bizarre.


    You would have a great point here if I ever said I’m right because of my expertise in breaking down film. I haven’t. Not once.
    In fact I said I am giving my opinion and anyone capable who analyzes the plays would have an equally valid one.
    I went out of my way to say, numerous times, the exact opposite of what you just attributed to me.

    You would be right, if I ever said that. What I said is basing your argument on stats is not as accurate in comparing players as watching the plays and evaluating the players. I said many times If you want to discuss your evaluation in the field instead of stats, your viewpoints would be worthy of consideration.
    You just again attributed the exact opposite of what I have said to me.


    I said Belichick did not favorably compare Collins to LT. I said nothing about inferring what he really meant. I said you misrepresented what bb said. Feel free to argue that point but again to say I gave an “explanation of what he really meant” is again attributing the opposite of what I said to me.

    Again, exactly opposite. I broke down each point in each list and responded to every single one of them.
    I belabored the tackle stat because it’s a terrible means to judge defenders by, and I described why in detail. You have yet to accept that. So at this point you either ignored my comments and deflected or you believe getting run at and pushed back 10 yards before the runner trips over you is equal to reading the play, shedding a block filling the hole and making a tackle for no gain.
    Obviously if you can’t even accept that, the topic needs further discussion.


    Again the opposite of what I did. I responded to every single point. I even asked if j jones was better than Gilmore last year because he had more tackles and ints. You didn’t answer.
    Again totally opposite. I responded to every single point you made, painstakingly one by one. You ignored 90% of the points I made. That is very telling.

    We aren’t in court.


    It’s a well accepted fact that these votes are a joke


    First you have not sourced that quote. If you want to believe everything that players say about teammates is gospel feel free to use that as part of your argument. I’ll watch football and draw my own conclusions.

    So Brady isn’t the goat because he says he isn’t?
    I am sure if Hightower really said that and you asked him he would give football reasons. Real football plays and not cite statistics.

    I accept that my evaluation of Collins is my evaluation. I stand by my evaluation. I also accept that other people may evaluate it differently if they actually evaluate the play. I do not put my skill above anyone’s. It’s a subjective analysis and intelligent people can come to different conclusions.
    But as I ha d says all along, and in fact, it’s been my entire point through out this e tire back and forth, watching football players play and evaluating what they do is a better method of comparing them than looking at stats.
    Will you admit that is correct? Because it would have eliminated all the mental gymnastics you gave had to go through to invent opinions to attribute to me and to state the exact opposite of what I said and call if my opinion.

    Ok so end it with one question

    Which is a better way to evaluate defensive football players? Comparing their statistics without context or watching their plays and evaluating them?
    That question is what this entire back and forth has been about.
     
  14. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Florida Man PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Embarrassing.
     
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  15. Clonamery

    Clonamery PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You tackled this thread in one word. Well done.
     
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  16. 1960Pats

    1960Pats PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I stopped watching MLB and the RS won quite a few titles. Maybe that'd work for you too.
     
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  17. 1960Pats

    1960Pats PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I like what I'm hearing about Collins.
    I hope I like what I see of him too.
     
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  18. 1960Pats

    1960Pats PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    In this particular back and forth with AJ I see the truth in what he says. His opponent applied something to him that he didn't say.
     
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  19. Wozzy

    Wozzy On the Game Day Roster

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    You say an awful lot without saying anything.

    And yes I sourced the Hightower quote back on page 5, in fact I gave you a video to watch of him saying Collins was "the best defensive player on the team." I give you video evidence and still it's not enough?!

    Never once did I say I was basing this assessment off stats entirely, pretending Collins wasn't in the running for best defender is you being willfully ignorant at best or simply having an axe to grind because you didn't like how he exited. Neither did I, but it doesn't change how good he was.

    In 2014 Wilfork was a year removed from being a Texan and another year from retirement, Hightower couldn't stay healthy and himself later referred to Collins as the best defender on the team, McCourty is a free safety who plays center field, Revis played one great season, a year later he was average and the Jets regretted overpaying him, turns out giving out $39 million guaranteed to an over-the-hill cornerback was a bad idea, and people seem to forget entirely that Chandler Jones was nowhere near the player he is now against the run, he was a creme puff against the run and faded against pass as the season wore on. He became a better defender when he left, got better, got stronger.

    Also this will be painfully funny assuming Collins stays healthy, what happens when he is the same player he was when he was happy to perform, when he leads us in almost every statistical category, also looks as good on tape as he did back then... let me guess, it's because he's "better" now? Better yet, stats still don't matter...

    We can't accept stats, can't accept team captain Hightower's word, can't accept BB's comparison to LT, can't accept All Pro and Pro Bowl votes... we just have to take your word for it, we have to accept your eyeball test... laughable.
     
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    Last edited: Jul 10, 2019
  20. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You didn’t answer the question.
     

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