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Report: Patriots fired up over what they've seen from Jamie Collins

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by Bradyking12, Jun 28, 2019.

  1. DropKickFlutie

    DropKickFlutie 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    Some posts about Patrick Chung are off.

    Chung was misused the first time and Belichick admitted it. He was stupidly used by Pees as a FS 20 yards behind the LOS. He's always been an elite in the box SS, at the LOS, who can cover TE and slot guys. The whole nickel/dime defense doesn't work without Chung's unique ability to cover the run while also playing excellent strong safety receiver coverage
     
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  2. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Yeah, that would mean watching the games rather than citing largely meaningless statistics.
     
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  3. Wozzy

    Wozzy On the Game Day Roster

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    lol funny stuff... I love the notion that a player can stumble and bumble his way into leading a team in tackles... nevermind just about every other meaningful defensive stat.

    Maybe if I stop watching the Red Sox they'll start winning games...
     
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  4. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Tackles are a horrific way to grade players.
    Are the tackles made in the backfield or 15 yard downfield? Is the guy with the most tackles making the most tackles because they run at him all day?
    Of course now more and more plays are passes, so the guy making the most tackles is likely the guy who allows the most completions.
    Like most football statistics without context it’s useless.
     
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    Last edited: Jul 7, 2019
  5. Doublebase

    Doublebase Rookie

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    I think this signing has the chance to be one of the biggest value signings of the off season. I've read his attitude has been great. Van Noy, Bentley, Hightower, Collins...plus there's Roberts and the rookie they IR'd last year. Collins and Van Noy can run...Roberts can run.

    Be real interesting to see how they use Collins, because let's face it, if this guy's head is on straight? We all know he can do a lot of things and add an interchangeable dynamic to a defense that lives off that stuff anyway.
     
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  6. captain stone

    captain stone Pro Bowl Player

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    Well, he kinda didn't help there during his first go-round...I'll be surprised if Bill repeats that particular page of the game plan this season; that seems an assignment better-handled by Van Noy (in a 7-Front) or Harmon (in Dime)...and perhaps ObiWon in the future (I hope)...

    Pardon my ignorance (or forgetfulness)...but was that an actual thing?
     
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  7. captain stone

    captain stone Pro Bowl Player

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    Bill might be now considering Front 7s in some ways similar to how Centers, Forwards & Wings are used in the 3-&-D NBA now...The personnel on the field has to athletically fit the 60/40 profile of the current league-issue pass/run ratio...besides 2 DTs, the rest of the Base-7 might be consisting of 5 Decepticons at LB & DE with the ability to: make tackles inside the box; set & gain the edge on wider runs & sweeps; cover intermediate crossers (probably with Zone-concept pass-offs); and blitz from any & every direction ...The more doubt & confusion for their offense, the better for our defense.
     
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    Last edited: Jul 7, 2019
  8. Patsfanin Philly

    Patsfanin Philly Pro Bowl Player

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    Apparently so...
    The Jamie Collins plastic bag hands mystery solved
     
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  9. Wozzy

    Wozzy On the Game Day Roster

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    Hahaha yeah they ran at Collins all day, that's how he ended up leading the team in tackles for a loss, it was strategy by opposing teams to have Collins making plays in their backfield. You conveniently ignored INT's, passes defended, sacks... stats are the result of production... they don't happen by accident or by some happy circumstance. Don't be absurd.
     
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  10. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I am not dismissing stats as having no meaning, I am saying without context they are meaningless. That is you can’t judge a defensive player by looking at his statistics and not watching him play.
    I’m not conveniently dismissing anything I am starting the breakdown of your “he was their best defensive player because stats” falsify by starting with the most blatant, obvious flaw.
    You are solely using statistics and refusing to accept all statistics are not created equal.
    As to your continued attempt to rely on statistics you are wrong that he led the team in tackles for loss, in fact nink and Hightower did. So using your argument I guess if you can’t actuaklg watch the plays you assume they did run at him because they were afraid of the much greater tackle for loss risk running at HT or nink, right?
    And no I don’t believe that 4 sacks and 2 Ints in a full season are eye popping.
    I’m not even going to get into the silliness of judging a player on passes defenses other than to point out he only had 3.

    Collins was a very effective player in 2014 but
    A) He wasn’t the best player on the defense and wasn’t even in the argument and
    B) judging defensive players by a stat sheet is a horrific way to evaluate them.
     
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  11. Wozzy

    Wozzy On the Game Day Roster

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    Your theory makes all sorts of sense on a 2-14 team with one good defender making all the tackles, it's much harder to justify that position on a team that won the Super Bowl.

    Yes... in 2014 Collins led the entire team in tackles, solo tackles, forced fumbles, defensive fumble recoveries, interceptions, linebacker passes defensed, was 3rd in tackles for a loss, 4th in total QB hits and had 4 sacks... but no, he was never in the argument for best defender.

    Like that time in 2015 he was voted to the All Pro team and Pro Bowl team... those voters must have only been reading the stat sheet... or that time BB compared him to Lawrence Taylor... probably the only time he's ever made that comparison... Bill must have been reading the stats also.

    Fans have a way of creating revisionist history when trying to kick a player on the way out the door, or in this case on the way back in. When the team was negotiating with Logan Mankins he slammed the organization, it was assumed he was on the way out the door, only the team continued negotiating until the zero hour before finally signing him to a lucrative deal... he went from "All Pro Guard," to "overrated," to "All Pro Guard" again... all in the course of an offseason.

    Listen to the opening of these highlights, Donta Hightower refers to Collins as the best defensive player on the team... but he must have been reading stats... but heck, let's watch some film and you can explain how this is not all that good.




    He left and made a stink due to money, he was a real jerk in 2016.

    He was always one, if not the best defender on the team.
     
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    Last edited: Jul 7, 2019
  12. SBLIII

    SBLIII In the Starting Line-Up

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    I'm not sure what the argument is. JC was elite in 2014 and 2015.
     
  13. Wozzy

    Wozzy On the Game Day Roster

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    I don't get it either. But I can promise you if he explodes on our defense this year they'll suggest he's changed, or is better due to some humility learned... lol. He's playing for money, he doesn't need any other motivation, and he is as good as it gets.

    The minute he was traded to the Browns he started leading them in tackles every week, they won their only games when he arrived in 2016. He had an injury plagued year in 2017 then came back from surgery in 2018 to lead them in stats again... he was too expensive for the new GM... a good GM... he hasn't changed, he was never bad.

    I don't want him to balance my checkbook or babysit my kids, I just need him to play football. He does that at an extraordinarily high level and he only started being "less than" the moment he was traded.

     
  14. SBLIII

    SBLIII In the Starting Line-Up

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    I think he was okay in Cleveland, not great. But again, he had no motivation due to money in that ****hole. He has that here. Put him into the right situation (not coverage) and he will thrive. He'll be 30 it's not like he is very old.
     
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  15. Wozzy

    Wozzy On the Game Day Roster

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    He was injured the season before last and had knee surgery.

    Last season he was second on the entire team in defensive snaps, led the team in tackles (104 combined), tackles for a loss (13, more than Myles Garrett), had an interception on multiple passes defensed, and was tied for 1st in linebacker sacks... I know stats don't really mean much though... beyond the fact the best players always seem to collect them.
     
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  16. Wheelman

    Wheelman Pro Bowl Player

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    Look at that beast on special teams! Nevermind that atrocious ball security by Pierre Thomas. Da **** was that!:eek:
     
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  17. SBLIII

    SBLIII In the Starting Line-Up

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    I watched them games. He still has the ability it simply was a lack of effort. Which again leads me to believe that he will be very good with the Pats as he is humbled again and motivated working for a final nice contract after this year.

    Patriots will let him get after the QB and be disruptive.
     
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  18. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It’s not a theory.

    Now you are getting it.

    According to your argument they must have.
    YOU are the one arguing that you can entirely judge a defensive player by statistics and that more tackles equals better player.
    I am saying you have to watch him play, you have to differentiate a tackle made 11 yards downfield from one made 2 yards downfield.
    I’m saying you cannot express how a defensive player played solely by statistic.
    You are saying the opposite


    Or that time bb traded him.

    At least now you are realizing it’s not about statistics. If you watch more film and watch the entire defense that season it will be clear to you that he was not the best player on the defense.
    Hightower was better. revis was better. ninkovich was better.(that year). Wilfork was better. McCourty was probably better.
    Collins was good but it’s ridiculous to say he was the best defender on that team.
    Now that you have realized the stat argument is silly go watch some more film.
     
  19. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I have recently taken that stance. It worked out well versus DET. Let’s see how the approach stands up next weekend against the Dodgers. Perhaps they no longer need me.
     
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  20. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Anytime I see the name “Pierre,” associated with the context of football, I immediately go back to wondering how in the hell Pierre Woods didn’t come up with that fumble in SB42 vs. the NYG. I still don’t believe it.
     
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