Reminder: Pats Had $28.5M in Dead Cap Money in April.... then 8 Key Players Opted Out (Rebuild Year)

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Nikolai

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I'd wager most of the people complaining loudest weren't Pats fans in 2000, or had a casual interest at best. It's hard for them to draw a lesson from that time period.
 

sb1

Pro Bowl Player
The issue I have with that oft repeated narrative is that it assumes everything else in this clinical trial is equal - and it most definitely is not.

Four specific circumstances happened Cleveland:
- Belichick inherited a 3-13 team with overpaid, over the hill veterans, necessitating a 2-year rebuild.
- Kosar was a hometown favorite who was past his prime, and went completely insubordinate.
- Things were looking up once Kosar was booted, but then Testaverde was injured.
- Modell's announcement of the move caused incredible distraction, and one of the best teams at that time finished 2-9.


After years and years of 'go for it now' and 'the cap is crap' narrative, the Pats finally did think short term in the last few years with Brady. Whenever the point did eventually come that the Pats would move on from TB12, it was going to be painful from a roster quality viewpoint as well as a salary cap perspective. That is what happened this year.


It is disingenuous to imply that the only difference between 2020, and 2001-2019 is the absence of Brady.
Yeah I don't take seriously any argument that faults Belichick for "losing" the last season in Cleveland. No head coach in the history of the NFL has won in those circumstances, nor will any coach ever be successful in the future in those circumstances. Facts, not opinion.

The team would certainly have a better quality offense with Brady in 2020... but I look at the collapse of the quality of the defense this year, compare it to how the defense carried a weak offense last year more often than not, and I'm now skeptical if Brady's presence would be enough to make this a playoff team in 2020 had he stayed.
 

Doctor DDS

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
The conventional wisdom with BB and the Patriots during much of this run was that their week to week game planning and adjustments were a major reason why they were so dominant. (and Brady of course) To be able to accomplish this BB relied on continuity and smart players who understood the system and could handle the weekly changes. Now comes 2020, basically no off season to prepare, pre season was cancelled and it all happens during a year of massive player turnover. Throw in a couple weeks of COVID practice restrictions and many of the advantages of BB as your coach are minimized. It is obvious that many of the players are struggling with their responsibilities. (blitz identification/pickup) If COVID happened in a year like 2016 when the Pats had a more stable roster these challenges would likely have been to their advantage.
 

Biffins

In the Starting Line-Up
This is beyond silly. Without Belichick, Tom Brady is likely selling insurance in 2002. No other coach would have the balls to take a part time college QB and hand them the reins in 2001. And the cherry picking is idiotic. What was Phil Jackson's record without MJ. What was Popvich's record without Tim Duncan. What was Auerbach's record without Bill Russell. What was Bill Walsh's record without Montana. Brady vs Belichick is the dumbest thing ever.

ok. So you tell me what Brady’s correct or adjusted or whatever record is without Brady?
 

amfootball

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
The issue I have with that oft repeated narrative is that it assumes everything else in this clinical trial is equal - and it most definitely is not.

Four specific circumstances happened Cleveland:
- Belichick inherited a 3-13 team with overpaid, over the hill veterans, necessitating a 2-year rebuild.
- Kosar was a hometown favorite who was past his prime, and went completely insubordinate.
- Things were looking up once Kosar was booted, but then Testaverde was injured.
- Modell's announcement of the move caused incredible distraction, and one of the best teams at that time finished 2-9.


After years and years of 'go for it now' and 'the cap is crap' narrative, the Pats finally did think short term in the last few years with Brady. Whenever the point did eventually come that the Pats would move on from TB12, it was going to be painful from a roster quality viewpoint as well as a salary cap perspective. That is what happened this year.


It is disingenuous to imply that the only difference between 2020, and 2001-2019 is the absence of Brady.
There was also a specific circumstance in 2001. Bill starting in 2000 had been 5-13 with #1 draft pick Bledsoe in his prime and then Mo Lewis hit and Brady comes in and the team goes from 5-13 to 14-3 and a SB win with Brady leading the GWD in the Super Bowl.

Also, the only thing Cleveland tell us for certain is Bill is terrible with average/poor QB play just like every coach in the league.
 
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DropKickFlutie

In the Starting Line-Up
There was also a specific circumstance in 2001. Bill starting in 2000 had been 5-13 with #1 draft pick Bledsoe in his prime and then Mo Lewis hit and Brady comes in and the team goes from 5-13 to 14-3 and a SB win with Brady leading the GWD in the Super Bowl.

Also, the only thing Cleveland tell us is Bill is terrible with average/good QB play just like most every coach in the league.

What's bizarre is you have to give Belichick all the credit for staying with his 6th round pick instead of an All Pro QB. Literally the only coach with the balls to do this. Brady honestly has no career unless he ends up on the Pats. The same way Edelman or Meyers or Malcolm Butler or JC Jackson aren't on anyone else's nfl roster without William Belichick as the head coach.

.
 

amfootball

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
What's bizarre is you have to give Belichick all the credit for staying with his 6th round pick instead of an All Pro QB. Literally the only coach with the balls to do this. Brady honestly has no career unless he ends up on the Pats. The same way Edelman or Meyers or Malcolm Butler or JC Jackson aren't on anyone else's nfl roster without William Belichick as the head coach.

.
Was the choice really that hard? I mean injury forced Bill to play Brady and then we all saw what happened - SB win. Pretty much a no brainer.

I disagree about Brady. He would have transformed any org he went to. 6 rings? Probably not. But a winner and a culture changer with his leadership, cerebral qualities and excellent play.
 

DropKickFlutie

In the Starting Line-Up
Was the choice really that hard? I mean injury forced Bill to play Brady and then we all saw what happened - SB win. Pretty much a no brainer.

I disagree about Brady. He would have transformed any org he went to. 6 rings? Probably not. But a winner and a culture changer with his leadership, cerebral qualities and excellent play.

Definitely not a no brainer. Team was 5-5 at one point, Brady was averaging like 180 yards passing. Without William Belichick, Tom Brady is out of the nfl and selling insurance for his dad in 2002.

.
 

amfootball

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
Definitely not a no brainer. Team was 5-5 at one point, Brady was averaging like 180 yards passing. Without William Belichick, Tom Brady is out of the nfl and selling insurance for his dad in 2002.

.
LOL. Brady was 3-2 to make that record 5-5. Bledsoe stared 0-2 that year. It was clear from the first few games that Brady sparked the whole team. Ty Law has talked about it many times how the whole team wanted to play for him.

Brady would have still been a super star QB without Bill. Imagine if Andy Reid got a hold of him? Or Tom Coughlin? Sky would have been the limit.
 

DropKickFlutie

In the Starting Line-Up
LOL. Brady was 3-2 to make that record 5-5. Bledsoe stared 0-2 that year. It was clear from the first few games that Brady sparked the whole team. Ty Law has talked about it many times how the whole team wanted to play for him.

Brady would have still been a super star QB without Bill. Imagine if Andy Reid got a hold of him? Or Tom Coughlin? Sky would have been the limit.

Tom Brady with Coughlin or Reid gets cut or stays as the 3rd string QB in 2001, after a platoon at Michigan. He maybe doesn't even get drafted. Belichick kept 4 QBs in 2000 to even keep Brady on. It's hilarious how much you're twisting to not give Belichick any credit. Your mind is warped. Maybe think of a nonBrady example. No way Edelman or Butler or Stephen Neal or JC Jackson have a NFL career without Belichick.

.
 
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sb1

Pro Bowl Player
There was also a specific circumstance in 2001. Bill starting in 2000 had been 5-13 with #1 draft pick Bledsoe in his prime and then Mo Lewis hit and Brady comes in and the team goes from 5-13 to 14-3 and a SB win with Brady leading the GWD in the Super Bowl.

Also, the only thing Cleveland tell us for certain is Bill is terrible with average/poor QB play just like every coach in the league.
Bill wasn’t terrible in Cleveland. Guided the Browns from a talent wasteland into a team that wasn’t far off from contending and a deep playoff run. Beat Bledsoe, Parcells and the Pats in the playoffs.

Bill’s W-L in Cleveland in his final season there is completely irrelevant to any honest assessment of the coach and the reasons why are obvious.
 

sb1

Pro Bowl Player
Tom Brady with Coughlin or Reid gets cut or stays as the 3rd strong QB in 2001, after a platoon at Michigan. He maybe doesn't even get drafted. Belichick kept 4 QBs in 2000 to even keep Brady on. It's hilarious how much you're twisting to not give Belichick any credit. Your mind is warped. Maybe think of a nonBrady example. No way Edelman or Butler or Stephen Neal or JC Jackson have a NFL career without Belichick.

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The key is would Brady get a shot with another team? Given his draft position, I’m leaning toward probably not.

If he did get a shot I do think he would win championships paired with a good coach, like Reid, Payton or Coughlin. Bill wouldn’t win squat with a crap QB but with a good QB why not? Obviously neither would win 6 but one doesn’t need the other to be good at what they do. Brady himself said pretty much the same thing.
 

jmt57

Moderator
Staff member
There was also a specific circumstance in 2001. Bill starting in 2000 had been 5-13 with #1 draft pick Bledsoe in his prime and then Mo Lewis hit and Brady comes in and the team goes from 5-13 to 14-3 and a SB win with Brady leading the GWD in the Super Bowl.

Also, the only thing Cleveland tell us for certain is Bill is terrible with average/poor QB play just like every coach in the league.
Son, you need to talk with those that attended the 2000 and 2001 training camps. Anyone and everyone there will attest that Brady was by far the better quarterback.

Brady was going to become the starting QB at some point in the 2001 season; the only question was when. The Mo Lewis hit simply expedited an inevitable decision that had already been made.

The oft repeated narrative by the the national media that Brady becoming the starter was a fluke is a myth.

In regards to Cleveland, the circumstances there have already been laid out. No head coach - Vince Lombardi, George Halas, Bill Walsh, Don Shula, whomever - was going to do any better in that scenario.
 

moosekill

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
Was the choice really that hard? I mean injury forced Bill to play Brady and then we all saw what happened - SB win. Pretty much a no brainer.

I disagree about Brady. He would have transformed any org he went to. 6 rings? Probably not. But a winner and a culture changer with his leadership, cerebral qualities and excellent play.
Brady wouldn't have played a down in the NFL if he had been on any other team in the NFL. Think what you want but you are wrong.
 

amfootball

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
Son, you need to talk with those that attended the 2000 and 2001 training camps. Anyone and everyone there will attest that Brady was by far the better quarterback.

Brady was going to become the starting QB at some point in the 2001 season; the only question was when. The Mo Lewis hit simply expedited an inevitable decision that had already been made.

The oft repeated narrative by the the national media that Brady becoming the starter was a fluke is a myth.

In regards to Cleveland, the circumstances there have already been laid out. No head coach - Vince Lombardi, George Halas, Bill Walsh, Don Shula, whomever - was going to do any better in that scenario.
That is my exact point. Brady was showing himself to be the better QB right from the get go and he was the 4th QB. That is what has always separated Brady, his relentless pursuit to get better and compete. That would have translated into any team he went to if Bill did not select him. This notion that he would not have been in the league or been a back up without Bill is completely and patently false.

The excuses for Bill's sub .500 record in Clev. are becoming legendary at this point. Occam's razor - the simplest and most obvious reason is almost always the right one - he did not have good Qbs while he coached there.
 

XLIX

Pro Bowl Player
Definitely not a no brainer. Team was 5-5 at one point, Brady was averaging like 180 yards passing. Without William Belichick, Tom Brady is out of the nfl and selling insurance for his dad in 2002.

.
Oh we’re playing make believe? Ok I’ll play:

Without Tom Brady, William Belichick gets fired after another 5-11 season in 2002 and ends up a DC for the Cowboys.
 

XLIX

Pro Bowl Player
Brady wouldn't have played a down in the NFL if he had been on any other team in the NFL. Think what you want but you are wrong.
Belichick as a HC would not have won a single Super Bowl if Brady had been in any other team in the NFL. Think what you want but you are wrong.
 

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