Quick benefits to the offense

[Off The Grid]

BGE always seemed to need at least one TE in the set, if not two, just to make any headway at all. Out of a 4WR set, he couldn't really do much besides passpro. Kinda shot our play-action all to hell.

I'd say an RB who's a fairly consistent threat to do some damage out of a 4WR set might represent the quickest benefit to the offense. Probably have to be a 2nd-rounder, though.

There it is.

I've said it 20 times, and I'll say it 20 more: BenJarvus Green needs to GO.

Give me a stable of young RB's with Speed + Power, who can Block or Catch or both.

I cannot FATHOM why Coach Bill the Mad hasn't spent the PENNIES in Draft Capital that it would've cost, over the last decade, to load up and occasionally replenish that stable, rather than bringing in DINOSAURS like Fred Taylor and SLUGS like BenJarvus Green.

Here's hoping he finally wises up, this year.

In he words of The Duke, "WHOA! Hold your horses there, Big Fella!"

I'm NOT advocating dumping BGE, just changing his role.

In 2010, our offense STILL generated huge Q3 leads in at least 5 games. Presumably, with more tactical options, we can increase this number significantly. With a defense whose run-crushing capability is fully restored, we should be able to hold on to those margins more reliably in Q4. Then, it's a matter of chewing up the clock when we have the ball.

What better way to do that than with the zero-turnover BGE running nearly every down behind Gronk and Crump, pounding it down their throats a few yards at a time and daring them to stop us? (and giving our shiny new "feature back" a well-deserved breather)

Of course, as soon as their defense commits sufficient resources to do so - Hello play-action! (at THAT point, it works, even with only a couple WRs in the set) Kill-shot bomb to the previously quiet Tate. Lights out. Party over. Thanks for playing! Better luck next time ..... Mr. Sanchez.

Oh, I never imagined you were suggesting we dump BenJarvus Green.

Indeed, as far as I know, I am the only Yankee in ALL of New England advocating that.

***

I see it as a choice between paying a Slug $3,0000,000 to $4,000,000 against the Cap, to pick up 4.4 YPC behind a line where my AUNT could've managed 4.8...Or TRADE him ~ Sell High!! ~ for a package of Draft Picks, and pick up a few guys to team up with Danny WoodHead: Guys who can actually BLAST it.

Easy choice for me, soul advocate of it though I be.

 

[supafly]

I see it as a choice between paying a Slug $3,0000,000 to $4,000,000 against the Cap, to pick up 4.4 YPC behind a line where my AUNT could've managed 4.8...Or TRADE him ~ Sell High!! ~ for a package of Draft Picks, and pick up a few guys to team up with Danny WoodHead: Guys who can actually BLAST it.

Slow your roll OTG--3 to 4 million is awfully high, so I looked it up.

"If Green-Ellis does sign a new contract with another franchise, New England will receive a second round pick in compensation.

If Green-Ellis does sign the tender, he will earn $2 million for next season."

I imagine they are willing to pay the 2 million for the next season, and will know whether or not they will keep him after that. I think 2 million is fair for a 1,000 yd back with zero fumbles and 13 yes!! (13) touchdowns.

I do, however agree with you that they need to find another complimenting back, and feel as though that can/will be addressed in the draft.

 

[supafly]

Not only is 2 million quite fair for a RB who had over 1,000 yds and 13 TD's with ZERO fumbles, but there were only 2 other RB's in the entire league who had over 13 TD's and 1,000+ yards.

Rashard Mendenhall PIT RB 324 20.2 1,273 3.9 79.6 13

And leading rusher:

Arian Foster HOU RB 327 20.4 1,616 4.9 101.0 16

Out of these 3 of 13 TD/1000 yds---ONLY Benjarvus had ZERO fumbles, as the other 2 had SEVEN fumbles between them, if you include Mendenhall's 2 more in the playoffs. That's an obvious average of 3.5 between the 'other' 2 guys each.

So just to reiterate my point, there was ONE RB in the league last year that had 13 or more TD's, 1,000+ yds, and 0 fumbles---and he played for us.

WAIT!! Where did all of those "BJGE is certainly no Maroney" threads go again? Oh yeah...nevermind. Or were the threads "BJGE will NEVER make this team?" I can't remember

 

[Fencer]

"BJGE is certainly no Maroney"

I think that point has been proved to everybody's satisfaction by now.

 

[supafly]

I think that point has been proved to everybody's satisfaction by now.

Lol!! Yes. Yes it sure has

 

[Off The Grid]

I see it as a choice between paying a Slug $3,0000,000 to $4,000,000 against the Cap, to pick up 4.4 YPC behind a line where my AUNT could've managed 4.8...Or TRADE him ~ Sell High!! ~ for a package of Draft Picks, and pick up a few guys to team up with Danny WoodHead: Guys who can actually BLAST it.

Easy choice for me, soul advocate of it though I be.

Slow your roll OTG--3 to 4 million is awfully high, so I looked it up.

"If Green-Ellis does sign a new contract with another franchise, New England will receive a second round pick in compensation.

If Green-Ellis does sign the tender, he will earn $2 million for next season."

I imagine they are willing to pay the 2 million for the next season, and will know whether or not they will keep him after that. I think 2 million is fair for a 1,000 yd back with zero fumbles and 13 yes!! (13) touchdowns.

I do, however agree with you that they need to find another complimenting back, and feel as though that can/will be addressed in the draft.

Green would indeed be more palatable at $2,000,000.

I haven't seen anyone argue against that.

So it's rather amusing to see you defend his value so vehemently.

But the $2,000,000 is a guaranteed minimum, bub.

We discussed this a LONG time ago.

Evidently, you're not familiar with a concept that was recently created.

It's called "Free Agency."

If you think that that's all he's going to draw on the free market, you're living on another planet, my friend.

I like you, Brother Fly. You're obviously a good soul.

But presuming to correct anyone, before learning the first clue about what you're talking about, is pretty freaking rude.

 

[supafly]

Green would indeed be more palatable at $2,000,000.

I haven't seen anyone argue against that.

So it's rather amusing to see you defend his value so vehemently.

But the $2,000,000 is a guaranteed minimum, bub.

We discussed this a LONG time ago.

Evidently, you're not familiar with a concept that was recently created.

It's called "Free Agency."

If you think that that's all he's going to draw on the free market, you're living on another planet, my friend.

I like you, Brother Fly. You're obviously a good soul.

But presuming to correct anyone, before learning the first clue about what you're talking about, is pretty freaking rude.

As far as being 'rude,' I sure think you're being insanely sensitive, as you are well aware that just isn't my style--never has been. So if you thought that was 'rude,' then I apologize.

I looked it up and that was the quote I received. A 2nd round tender in BJGE's case receives a guaranteed salary of 2 million dollars. Why would free agency come into play if no one else wants him? And if they do offer a better deal, we wouldn't take him anyway at the price you are talking of--surely not 3 to 4 million dollars, we'd simply refuse to match the offer and take a 2nd round draft pick. So, if a team is going to offer him 3 or 4 million dollars they'd better be willing to give us the 2nd round pick--and I really don't see that happening.


Just my opinion as I always state, as I do not think or pretend to be any kind of expert. As far as the 'rude' comment, that is kind of strange? I don't believe there was one single thing that was rude about anything that I said. I implore you to re-read the comment, and hopefully you will see that.

As a matter of fact, my last line was agreeing with you, and saying that you have a good point.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Green would indeed be more palatable at $2,000,000.

I haven't seen anyone argue against that.

So it's rather amusing to see you defend his value so vehemently.

But the $2,000,000 is a guaranteed minimum, bub.

BJGE is an RFA. So if the figure is 2m, that's what it is. Unless the new CBA changes things. But let's work with what we know for now. I really don't see what you have against BJGE. He does what's asked of him and he does it well. We need more depth at RB but I don't see the value in drafting Ingram at #17. At #28 or #33 I'd certainly consider it though.

 

[bucky]

The point is, that with an RB who doesn't need extra blocking almost all the time to do damage, your tactical options are immediately increased.

What do you mean by "extra blocking"? The more WRs you put on the field, the more DBs the defense will send out. If you go with a 4 WR look, the defense has 2 choices - they can go with 6 DBs, in which case you have a 5 on 5 blocking scenario and you should be able to run, or then can go with fewer DBs, in which case you should probably be throwing the ball. So what is BJGE's issue? Is it that he can't avoid the DBs and can't break their tackles?

 

[Off The Grid]

I see it as a choice between paying a Slug $3,0000,000 to $4,000,000 against the Cap, to pick up 4.4 YPC behind a line where my AUNT could've managed 4.8...Or TRADE him ~ Sell High!! ~ for a package of Draft Picks, and pick up a few guys to team up with Danny WoodHead: Guys who can actually BLAST it.

Easy choice for me, soul advocate of it though I be.

Slow your roll OTG--3 to 4 million is awfully high, so I looked it up.

"If Green-Ellis does sign a new contract with another franchise, New England will receive a second round pick in compensation.

If Green-Ellis does sign the tender, he will earn $2 million for next season."

I imagine they are willing to pay the 2 million for the next season, and will know whether or not they will keep him after that. I think 2 million is fair for a 1,000 yd back with zero fumbles and 13 yes!! (13) touchdowns.

I do, however agree with you that they need to find another complimenting back, and feel as though that can/will be addressed in the draft.

Green would indeed be more palatable at $2,000,000.

I haven't seen anyone argue against that.

So it's rather amusing to see you defend his value so vehemently.

But the $2,000,000 is a guaranteed minimum, bub.

We discussed this a LONG time ago.

Evidently, you're not familiar with a concept that was recently created.

It's called "Free Agency."

If you think that that's all he's going to draw on the free market, you're living on another planet, my friend.

I like you, Brother Fly. You're obviously a good soul.

But presuming to correct anyone, before learning the first clue about what you're talking about, is pretty freaking rude.

As far as being 'rude,' I sure think you're being insanely sensitive, as you are well aware that just isn't my style--never has been. So if you thought that was 'rude,' then I apologize.

I looked it up and that was the quote I received. A 2nd round tender in BJGE's case receives a guaranteed salary of 2 million dollars. Why would free agency come into play if no one else wants him? And if they do offer a better deal, we wouldn't take him anyway at the price you are talking of--surely not 3 to 4 million dollars, we'd simply refuse to match the offer and take a 2nd round draft pick. So, if a team is going to offer him 3 or 4 million dollars they'd better be willing to give us the 2nd round pick--and I really don't see that happening.

Just my opinion as I always state, as I do not think or pretend to be any kind of expert. As far as the 'rude' comment, that is kind of strange? I don't believe there was one single thing that was rude about anything that I said. I implore you to re-read the comment, and hopefully you will see that.

As a matter of fact, my last line was agreeing with you, and saying that you have a good point.

OY.

You're killing me, Fly.

 

[Off The Grid]

BJGE is an RFA. So if the figure is 2m, that's what it is.

Your gaping ignorance of how RFA's actually work is ASTONISHING.

The Fish RFA'd Wes Welker at 1 Year for $1,350,000.

The Patriots signed him ~ if memory serves ~ for 5 years and $18,000,000!!

So much for "the figure is 2m, that's what it is."

The RFA Tender is just a starting point, gentlemen.

I don't know how I can make it any clearer.

 

[bucky]

Your gaping ignorance of how RFA's actually work is ASTONISHING.

The Fish RFA'd Wes Welker at 1 Year for $1,350,000.

The Patriots signed him ~ if memory serves ~ for 5 years and $18,000,000!!

So much for "the figure is 2m, that's what it is."

The RFA Tender is just a starting point, gentlemen.

I don't know how I can make it any clearer.

So you selected 1 example of someone who received a contract offer as an RFA. But you failed to mention that for every RFA who gets an offer, there are about 10-20 who don't get anything because RFA is very restrictive. Who was the last Patriots' RFA to get a contract offer from another team? Mankins was an RFA last year. So was Gostkowski. Neither of them got a sniff from another team. I suspect if someone wants to give BJGE a multi-year contract worth $3mil+, BB will gladly take the 2nd round pick.

 

[Off The Grid]

The Fish RFA'd Wes Welker at 1 Year for $1,350,000.

The Patriots signed him ~ if memory serves ~ for 5 years and $18,000,000!!

So much for "the figure is 2m, that's what it is."

The RFA Tender is just a starting point, gentlemen.

I don't know how I can make it any clearer.

So you selected 1 example of someone who received a contract offer as an RFA.

I provided a supporting argument to illustrate my point: The MARKET dictates the player's price, a concept that I foolishly thought was a simple one.

So sorry if that destroys your illusions. Feel free to ignore the facts.

My main argument to support my educated guess that Green's Market Price will be in the $3,000,000 ~ $4,000,000 range ~ if things return to normal, of course ~ has been ~ and oft repeated ~ his resume: 1000 Yards, 13 TD's, no Fumbles, young legs, knowledge of the system, Good Blocker, et cetera.

Derrick Ward got $17,000,000 for 4 years from the Bucs.

Are you guys SURE I'm off the mark, here??

I suspect if someone wants to give BJGE a multi-year contract worth $3mil+, BB will gladly take the 2nd round pick.

Well, that's sorta been my point all along, now hasn't it??

 

[bucky]

I provided a supporting argument to illustrate my point: The MARKET dictates the player's price, a concept that I foolishly thought was a simple one.

So sorry if that destroys your illusions. Feel free to ignore the facts.

My main argument to support my educated guess that Green's Market Price will be in the $3,000,000 ~ $4,000,000 range ~ if things return to normal, of course ~ has been ~ and oft repeated ~ his resume: 1000 Yards, 13 TD's, no Fumbles, young legs, knowledge of the system, Good Blocker, et cetera.

Derrick Ward got $17,000,000 for 4 years from the Bucs.

I think it's you who is missing a very basic fact here. And that fact is how to place a valuation on a player who is an RFA. The valuation is the dollar value of the contract PLUS the draft pick compensation. $4mil/year plus a 2nd round pick is NOT the same as $4mil/year.

 

[MaineMan]

What do you mean by "extra blocking"? The more WRs you put on the field, the more DBs the defense will send out. If you go with a 4 WR look, the defense has 2 choices - they can go with 6 DBs, in which case you have a 5 on 5 blocking scenario and you should be able to run, or then can go with fewer DBs, in which case you should probably be throwing the ball. So what is BJGE's issue? Is it that he can't avoid the DBs and can't break their tackles?

It's that he often won't get to the LB level, much less the DB level, without an extra blocker. Many, if not most, of his bigger runs have come with two extra blockers in the set.

 

[supafly]

OY.

You're killing me, Fly.

If you say so OTG

All I did was state a point in a respectable way. Something that other posters backed the fact up on too. You seem to be in the minority--of ONE. As one poster said, if Logan Mankins did not get a sniff with a RFA tender, then why would you think that BGE will--and at a 2nd round pick? I'm not seeing it, but I have just as much respect for your opinion as anyone else's, and you could maybe even be right. I don't know, I cannot predict the future.

And how can you say that the Pats "letting him go and receiving a 2nd rd pick in return" was your point ALL along? That's the total opposite of your point.

Your point was that we would apparently get into a bidding war and pay him roughly TWICE of his RFA 2nd round tender. How can we do both? This team is not going to go from his measly salary last year to almost 4 million dollars, maybe that's just an opinion, or maybe it's fact, we'll have to see. We'd just take the 2nd round tender instead, especially considering that you don't even think we could get that for Mankins at this point. You just stated last week that you saw a 3rd or 4th round pick for Mankins (which I strongly disagree with)--but you think we'd pass up a 2nd for BGE?

In other words, please once again, explain to me exactly how the NE Patriots are going to pay BJGE roughly 3-4 million dollars next year? I'm not understanding how that'd work if they would 'just take the 2nd rd pick' like you said. Which one is it, because we're getting confused? You can't have both. You've now stated that they're going to pay him almost double his tender, but you also said that they'd simply give up a 2nd rounder, and that was your point all along. You seem to have 2 conflicting points.

If you agree--fine. If you DON"T agree--fine too. That happens all of the time here, but if you thought it was 'rude' to point out a different side then at this point I'm really not sure to say. Isn't that what posters do here every single day? I'm really not sure what to say at this point, as I even actually apologized for your misunderstanding--something quite rare here if you hadn't noticed.

If the words of 'slow your roll OTG' seriously got your panties in a bunch even after an explanation etc--then that's on you I guess. I think it is you who has been quite rigid, conflicting, and 'rude' if anything.

 

[VJCPatriot]

To sum up above response - We either get BJGE's services for 2M as per his RFA tender, or if some team offers him big bucks, we will pocket the 2nd round pick and use that in this year's draft for a new RB. No need to panic.

 

[supafly]

To sum up above response - We either get BJGE's services for 2M as per his RFA tender, or if some team offers him big bucks, we will pocket the 2nd round pick and use that in this year's draft for a new RB. No need to panic.

Thnx VJC, that's what I assumed all along, and stated in my posts. Certainly no panic here. I think he's a very respectable RB with many great things to offer, but I also will not lose sleep if we somehow lost him after the season, especially not this season due to the 2nd round tender. The right choice was made, and the right tendered pick was made etc. I actually hope that we end up keeping him longer term for a reasonable price of course, and a fresh, younger complimentary back who may even step in and switch roles with him depending on how things shake out. I have been a big BJGE supporter from day one, but I also recognize his limitations and weaknesses.

My back and forth with OTG (if that's what you could call it) was simply about whether or not the NE Patriots will have to pay him '3 to 4 million' this year--which I strongly disagree with. I do not believe anyone will show much interest, and we're hardly going to get into any kind of bidding war for him.

As you said, we'd simply take the 2nd round pick.

 

[woolster22]

I don't think benny is going anywhere, but if a team is crazy enough to throw an offer his way then that is fine. This offense does not need much at the wr/rb positions. You can stand pat or take a late round flier on a wr. You should look for a mid round compliment to Benny and Woodhead. Tf'nB, 'nuff said. The interior O-line is on the verge of disastor. Time to aquire some young talent, sprinkle in some mid/late round inductees for Dante's Acadaemy of Plus Sized Dance. This has been an elite offense for half a decade now, cracking the starting lineup is going to be damn near impossible for a WR, and there is legitimate competition at RB. There is serious opportunity on the line, and can you imagine BJGE/Rookie Upgrade running with better blocking? Tf'nB with that extra split second? And we don't really have anything to base Price on.

Both sides of the ball can use an injection of talent up front. All the other pieces seem to be in place. Lucky for us the top of the draft seems loaded with the defensive half of this equation. Let's hope BB finds some keepers to watch Brady's back and make some creases for the backfield. Thats the best way to improve this team, there are no shortcuts.

 

[Off The Grid]

I think it's you who is missing a very basic fact here. And that fact is how to place a valuation on a player who is an RFA. The valuation is the dollar value of the contract PLUS the draft pick compensation. $4mil/year plus a 2nd round pick is NOT the same as $4mil/year.

Yes, the fact that I actually created a thread asking how much Logan Mankin's big contract would curb his potential trade value clearly illustrates that I don't include that factor in my assessment!!

But you boys go on thinking that RFA Tender = Market Value.