Quarterbacks Thankful That They Have A Job

[RobertWeathers]

Given the O.P., and the angle some of the Kaepernick defenders like to take, this seems like an appropriate place for this:



Colin Kaepernick makes surprise appearance at 'Unthanksgiving Day' on Alcatraz

I have a little Native North American blood in me so I can somewhat get behind the demonstration but I'm not sure if Kap helps or hurts.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

I agree with your record position as well. And yes, the politics/personality/history of a player absolutely factor into whether he will be added to a particular roster. The NFL is absolutely business/entertainment, so the fact CK has an appreciable group of fans boycotting a product will absolutely weigh-in to the personnel decision.

My issue with these CK articles is the claim he is this silver bullet for any bad organization based on statistics alone. Add him to the roster, and the team will improve. There is nothing to support that position. Nothing. And this 'talent' argument, for or against adding him, is an empty word, not an empirical/factual component of the argument. CK can have a lovely singing voice, but that does not make him an improvement in very different schemes as a QB. Talented at what - a QB role without definition? Brady was not viewed as talented at the combine in those measurables, yet somehow he worked well for the Pats. I wouldn't want Brady running a read-option offense either. So under this amorphous talent claim, stripped of fundamentals on fitness for particular systems, is Brady not a 'talented' QB? His stats are awesome, but is he going to achieve comparable results in a read-option system with an emphasis on running? Not remotely.

QBs like Brady also will pull wins from losing scenarios. I have watched CK quite a bit, but do not see him as that type of QB day in, day out. I know Jim Harbaugh loved him, protests or not, and they ran a very specific type of offense. Harbaugh left, the scheme changed, and CK was benched. What to make of the lack of confidence from Harbaugh's successors is anyone's guess (there were not protests for all of that, but it may suggest that Harbaugh had to coach him excessively in order to get him to that level and Harbaugh is a great coach). The Niners were and are a disaster.

Does CK have the abilities to play backup if he is committed to learning the particular offense? Sure. Will he sign on to that role? I have no idea. Is a backup worth a PR nightmare? Probably not. Is CK the type of superstar QB that teams will morph an entire offensive scheme to accommodate? No. Has he elevated a team's play to heights unimaginable by his abilities alone? No. Are stats influencd by the talent on the team? Yes. How many number 1 receivers were added to the Niners roster with CK? Quite a few. Is there a guarantee in another system, meaning any of the systems outside the Niners under Harbaugh, he would achieve better results than these other lousy QBs listed above? Absolutely not. The only universe that reasoning works is Madden NFL, where his subjective numbers say how good or bad he works elsewhere.

By the logic of these articles, Ochocinco was a 'talented' receiver and should have 1,000 receiving yards for the Pats given his 'talent' and Brady as QB. Apparently worked to fit in, good guy and ultimately a disaster - 15 rec/231 yds/1 TD. There was no PR cost for him in adding him, but he didn't fit the Pats system, despite physical abilities and a desire to play for the coach. Corey Dillon, in contrast, worked with tremendous physical abilities and a role that fit those abilities.

I cannot claim to love the CK saga enough to do a team-by-team breakdown on skill sets required and comparative measurables of current QB and CK in order to determine if he is even better than the current player in that role and would ultimately prove to be a step up from what is currently there. Having said that, I haven't read that analysis from anyone else touting the amorphous 'talent' argument in support of the blackball theory either. Just stats from the Niners, which are just that. Teams in the end want wins, not stats. If CK cannot do that, then what good is he, and why should he be starting anywhere, regardless of his politics?

There's a lot of great points in here, don't want to take away from any of it.

Though the wins thing is a bit off I think. McCown is proof of that. Tebow also has a winning career record and never got another shot. So I don't think it's all about the wins alone, though that matters a lot.

One really important part of your post that doesn't get covered enough is the silver bullet theory. Even with a potential talent upgrade (whatever that means), nobody even thinks about the potential impact on a lot of his teammates. On a young team like say the Browns, the glare would be overwhelming for many of those kids. So even if there's a system fit, there's other factors that go with it and that has to have an impact on the rest of the team.

At the end of the day, I find it sad that he's grouped with the Greg Hardys and Ray Rices of the world. Whether you agree or not with his protest, his intention was always good, to shed light on social injustice. He doesn't deserve to be painted with the same brush as wife beaters or drug addicts. You might think he's a moron, and maybe he is. But he doesn't deserve to get lumped in with the scum of the earth and treated like a criminal.

If all the people who were enraged by this Kaepernick episode spent half their anger on an issue like domestic violence or childhood bullying or police violence or a host of other issues, the country would be a lot better off than raging at a black man who gave up millions of dollars to try and help other black men. Again, you can disagree with the methodology or even the thought process, but you can't argue against the intention.

 

[Deus Irae]

Again, you can disagree with the methodology or even the thought process, but you can't argue against the intention.

Why not? His stated intention/reason

"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color," Kaepernick told NFL Media in an exclusive interview after the game.

was pretty freaking moronic. No country run by man is ever going to get 100% approval and "right" on all the issues (especially when it comes to so-called social justice, where there are so often multiple sides to the same story and multiple "right" positions), so there's always going to be someone claiming oppression or some level of maltreatment.

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

I have a little Native North American blood in me so I can somewhat get behind the demonstration but I'm not sure if Kap helps or hurts.

I also do, tangibly, and confirmed by DNA testing. Not sure that makes me hold a higher moral ground though but not important.
The Alcatraz demonstration in the 60s was worthy (res were third world). An Alcatraz demonstration today, "unthanksgiving", is not
While Thanksgiving may have been founded on celebrating the historically vague Pilgrim feast day and that was a prelude to conquest (something many Indians/Native Americans knew nothing of), the modern Thanksgiving is a contemporary day to give thanks to what we all have. It's agnostic, it's a day to stop and appreciate family, friends, what we have that's good. Unless one believes a blow up lighting snowman on the front lawn or a new Xbox under a fiberglass tree as a celebration of the birth of Jesus, historical and contemporary is nearly completely disconnected.
This Alcatraz demo is an anti America protest. And for those that want to protest the country of America or its institutions? That's a right and an important one, however, please don't tell me about this being an Indian rights march that rues this contemporary holiday known as Thanksgiving.

Want to make a difference for Indians/Native Americans? Write to your congressman or congresswoman about the Black Hills agreement case.

As far as Kaep, this is his choice. But for anyone here who can't connect this to why a GM/HC don't want to take a chance on him (taking in the totality) you have decided reality isn't an important concept.

 

[farn]

Just because there are worse QBs, does not make CK any good. He isn't a useful QB. His success in SF was very much about the impressive D.

Just because some team is stupid enough to sign and play Cutler, it does not mean an NFL team should employ CK.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I also do, tangibly, and confirmed by DNA testing. Not sure that makes me hold a higher moral ground though but not important.
The Alcatraz demonstration in the 60s was worthy (res were third world). An Alcatraz demonstration today, "unthanksgiving", is not
While Thanksgiving may have been founded on celebrating the historically vague Pilgrim feast day and that was a prelude to conquest (something many Indians/Native Americans knew nothing of), the modern Thanksgiving is a contemporary day to give thanks to what we all have. It's agnostic, it's a day to stop and appreciate family, friends, what we have that's good. Unless one believes a blow up lighting snowman on the front lawn or a new Xbox under a fiberglass tree as a celebration of the birth of Jesus, historical and contemporary is nearly completely disconnected.
This Alcatraz demo is an anti America protest. And for those that want to protest the country of America or its institutions? That's a right and an important one, however, please don't tell me about this being an Indian rights march that rues this contemporary holiday known as Thanksgiving.

Want to make a difference for Indians/Native Americans? Write to your congressman or congresswoman about the Black Hills agreement case.

As far as Kaep, this is his choice. But for anyone here who can't connect this to why a GM/HC don't want to take a chance on him (taking in the totality) you have decided reality isn't an important concept.

My ancestors' beef is with the Canadian Govt (Huron) so I get the anti govt sentiment.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

Why not? His stated intention/reason



was pretty freaking moronic. No country run by man is ever going to get 100% approval and "right" on all the issues (especially when it comes to so-called social justice, where there are so often multiple sides to the same story and multiple "right" positions), so there's always going to be someone claiming oppression or some level of maltreatment.

Okay, you can be critical of his intentions. It's the Internet, I forgot for a second we can be critical of anything.

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

My ancestors' beef is with the Canadian Govt (Huron) so I get the anti govt sentiment.

"My ancestors' beef is with the Canadian Govt"

Anyone that would allow their beef to be taken by a bunch of hosers should be pissed. NEVER! get between a man and his beef...

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

Okay, you can be critical of his intentions. It's the Internet, I forgot for a second we can be critical of anything.

"It's the Internet, I forgot for a second we can be critical of anything"

Go reread the fist 2 months of PF posts about Dwayne Allen. That will raise your spirits about the robust Internet freedom of being critical.

 

[Deus Irae]

Okay, you can be critical of his intentions. It's the Internet, I forgot for a second we can be critical of anything.

And you can post silly, stupid crap, because it's the Internet. It's pretty cool how that all works.

 

[Ring 6]

Okay, you can be critical of his intentions. It's the Internet, I forgot for a second we can be critical of anything.

Including his real intention to call attention to himself because no one was paying attention to him sucking as a Qb and being benched in favor of Blaine gabbart.

 

[MassPats38]

At the end of the day, I find it sad that he's grouped with the Greg Hardys and Ray Rices of the world. Whether you agree or not with his protest, his intention was always good, to shed light on social injustice. He doesn't deserve to be painted with the same brush as wife beaters or drug addicts. You might think he's a moron, and maybe he is. But he doesn't deserve to get lumped in with the scum of the earth and treated like a criminal.

I don't personally view him that way. My issue is more with these articles and the attempts to argue he unquestionably should be starting in the NFL.

To me, the effect of his protests are reminiscent of the Dixie Chicks who ripped W. in London (to cheers) and were shocked and shaken that country music fans vilified them as a result. CK took a position that players and some fans applauded, but it also was met with vitriol from fans who view it as disrespectful and inappropriate. Entertainers who decide to go political in front of the fans need to understand the fans, or they may not see work again. I continue to be amazed by entertainers and fans citing "First Amendment rights" who miss the "Congress shall make" (i.e., government action) aspect of the right). Speech outside that limited protection frequently has dire consequences.

I don't claim to know CK, his motives, or whether this is a sincere effort to bring social injustices to light. I don't view him as hero or villain, because there are simply too many unanswered questions. In the end, he is a football player who likely needs to devote his efforts to advocacy, because the advocacy will not get him on the football field. He has created a PR problem for teams who might have considered him, although not one of the violent criminal sort as Rice and Hardy, but a PR problem nonetheless. I expect with that hot potato status he will find a team if, and only if, his skill set is a near ideal match for the position and will lead a team to the playoffs (winning forgives much). Barring that, even losing teams like money and would not love the prospect of selling even fewer tickets and team merchandise if his name is on the roster.

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

I don't personally view him that way. My issue is more with these articles and the attempts to argue he unquestionably should be starting in the NFL.

To me, the effect of his protests are reminiscent of the Dixie Chicks who ripped W. in London (to cheers) and were shocked and shaken that country music fans vilified them as a result. CK took a position that players and some fans applauded, but it also was met with vitriol from fans who view it as disrespectful and inappropriate. Entertainers who decide to go political in front of the fans need to understand the fans, or they may not see work again. I continue to be amazed by entertainers and fans citing "First Amendment rights" who miss the "Congress shall make" (i.e., government action) aspect of the right). Speech outside that limited protection frequently has dire consequences.

I don't claim to know CK, his motives, or whether this is a sincere effort to bring social injustices to light. I don't view him as hero or villain, because there are simply too many unanswered questions. In the end, he is a football player who likely needs to devote his efforts to advocacy, because the advocacy will not get him on the football field. He has created a PR problem for teams who might have considered him, although not one of the violent criminal sort as Rice and Hardy, but a PR problem nonetheless. I expect with that hot potato status he will find a team if, and only if, his skill set is a near ideal match for the position and will lead a team to the playoffs (winning forgives much). Barring that, even losing teams like money and would not love the prospect of selling even fewer tickets and team merchandise if his name is on the roster.

""because the advocacy will not get him on the football field""

Yep.
Given the totality of the situation and history, he needs to make it unequivocally clear that his being a member of the team and being one of the team's QBs is without exception the most import thing in front of him.
So if CK doesn't want to make that message loud and clear then this is just another thread about seeing him play QB for reasons other than football.

I suspect it is too late given the nervous, tenuous, risky personas of most GMs/HCs as well as CK seemingly making it clear the controversy surrounding him is something he proudly brings with him everywhere.

 

[Jlaff]

Keapernick should just take pride in the fact that he put his convictions over a paycheque.

He's a hero for personal freedom, what other person would give up $1-3 million each time to take a knee!? Good for him, I stand by his personal choice to not work in the NFL and to kneel for multiple millions at a time.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

And you can post silly, stupid crap, because it's the Internet. It's pretty cool how that all works.

It does seem silly and stupid. I felt the same way about 10 years ago. But there's a ton of research on systemic racial bias in America that is hard to ignore.

I don't like Kaepernick. And I really don't like Black Lives Matter. But behind all the nonsense and stupidity, there's an important point that gets missed because of their ridiculous stunts. And it's too important to ignore and dismiss just because you don't like the messenger.

 

[Ring 6]

It does seem silly and stupid. I felt the same way about 10 years ago. But there's a ton of research on systemic racial bias in America that is hard to ignore.

I don't like Kaepernick. And I really don't like Black Lives Matter. But behind all the nonsense and stupidity, there's an important point that gets missed because of their ridiculous stunts. And it's too important to ignore and dismiss just because you don't like the messenger.

They really are not related.
Kneeling for the anthem, wearing pig socks, and saying the country you live in does not deserve the respect of an overpaid attention whore has had more of a negative impact on the purported issue ( the real issue was kaepernick being desperate to be relevant and get attention after losing his job because he sucks) than a positive one.

 

[Ring 6]

""because the advocacy will not get him on the football field""

Yep.
Given the totality of the situation and history, he needs to make it unequivocally clear that his being a member of the team and being one of the team's QBs is without exception the most import thing in front of him.
So if CK doesn't want to make that message loud and clear then this is just another thread about seeing him play QB for reasons other than football.

I suspect it is too late given the nervous, tenuous, risky personas of most GMs/HCs as well as CK seemingly making it clear the controversy surrounding him is something he proudly brings with him everywhere.

You make a good point.

“Hire me so I can be the voice of your business while I say or do controversial things and I’ll also play football” is not a good strategy.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

They really are not related.
Kneeling for the anthem, wearing pig socks, and saying the country you live in does not deserve the respect of an overpaid attention whore has had more of a negative impact on the purported issue ( the real issue was kaepernick being desperate to be relevant and get attention after losing his job because he sucks) than a positive one.

That's fine if you believe that.

But it still doesn't make the larger issues go away.

I don't care what people think of Kaep. But I do want people to think about the black lives lost. Whether they're related or not, it's an issue deserving attention on its own too.

 

[Ring 6]

That's fine if you believe that.

But it still doesn't make the larger issues go away.

I don't care what people think of Kaep. But I do want people to think about the black lives lost. Whether they're related or not, it's an issue deserving attention on its own too.

It won’t be addressed by a football player kneeling for the national anthem.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

It won’t be addressed by a football player kneeling for the national anthem.

I agree. It's a pretty complex issue. It won't be covered by any one person, or any one action.

You can still reject everything Kaepernick says. But there is a fundamental flaw that makes life much more difficult and dangerous for 18% of the US population.