Pope Francis says Atheists Can Be saved..

[RI Patriots fan]

The old testament predates the Catholic Church. The church itself has debated the infallible nature of the bible itself over the centuries so it's not cut and dry including at the Catholic councils. But in general the view is that it is sacred and beyond corruption. Thus I can cherry pick all I want because I know you'll just avoid anything that doesn't correspond to your parochial, and I mean limited, point of view.

The old testament doesn't predate the Catholic Church. Just think about it for a second. Why would Jews name something the "Old" Testament when there was no "New" Testament? The fact is that there was no 100% agreement in the Jewish coomunity on eaxctly which books were inspired and which weren't inspired. In fact, we see in the very, very early Christian community (when there was no Canon of scripture) church fathers quoting from books that the church never chose to be part of the canon of scripture.
Heck, we even see in the epistle of Jude (part of our present day canon of scripture known as the Bible) a quote from the First Book of Enoch which many in the early church believed to be "inspired" by God:

"Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him"

Jude 1 NIV - Jude, a servant of ************ and a - Bible Gateway


BTW, the church hasn't been debately the infallible nature of the scriptures. They had been debating which books were inspired and which weren't inspired. The church sees the scriptures as entirely free from moral error.


"107 The inspired books teach the truth. "Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures."72"


Catechism of the Catholic Church - Sacred Scripture



It is most certainly cut and dry when an Ecumenical Council declares something to be infallible.


"The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter's successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium," above all in an Ecumenical Council.418 When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine "for belief as being divinely revealed,"419 and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions "must be adhered to with the obedience of faith."420 This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.421"


If you cherry pick scripture verses, you are misunderstanding both the design and purpose of the scriptures.



III. THE HOLY SPIRIT, INTERPRETER OF SCRIPTURE

109 In Sacred Scripture, God speaks to man in a human way. To interpret Scripture correctly, the reader must be attentive to what the human authors truly wanted to affirm, and to what God wanted to reveal to us by their words.75

110 In order to discover the sacred authors' intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking and narrating then current. "For the fact is that truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression."76

111 But since Sacred Scripture is inspired, there is another and no less important principle of correct interpretation, without which Scripture would remain a dead letter. "Sacred Scripture must be read and interpreted in the light of the same Spirit by whom it was written."77

The Second Vatican Council indicates three criteria for interpreting Scripture in accordance with the Spirit who inspired it.78

112 1. Be especially attentive "to the content and unity of the whole Scripture". Different as the books which compose it may be, Scripture is a unity by reason of the unity of God's plan, of which Christ Jesus is the center and heart, open since his Passover.79


The phrase "heart of Christ" can refer to Sacred Scripture, which makes known his heart, closed before the Passion, as the Scripture was obscure. But the Scripture has been opened since the Passion; since those who from then on have understood it, consider and discern in what way the prophecies must be interpreted.80

113 2. Read the Scripture within "the living Tradition of the whole Church". According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church's heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God's Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture (". . . according to the spiritual meaning which the Spirit grants to the Church"81).

114 3. Be attentive to the analogy of faith.82 By "analogy of faith" we mean the coherence of the truths of faith among themselves and within the whole plan of Revelation.


Catechism of the Catholic Church - Sacred Scripture


Bible verses were never meant to be read as "one offs". All of scripture needs to be interpreted in light of the entirety of Sacred Tradition.

 

[RI Patriots fan]

That's what he does in every thread. Demean whoever disagrees with insults and eye rolls and put on the superior mask. He is a microcosm of why I'm proud to have left such a hypocritical and narrow minded religion.

Yes, I'm sure that's why you left the Catholic faith....lol.

 

[RI Patriots fan]

Roll your eyes like a junior high school girl, perhaps it displays your emotional age.. my commentary has nothing to do with the progressive media, it has to do with cited catholic publications..

Find your commentary hypocritical and shallow, particularly after your lengthy diatribe on not wanting to help the homeless....

Ok...so you have nothing. What else is new? Well, nothing.

 

[everlong]

Yes, I'm sure that's why you left the Catholic faith....lol.

Judging by the ubiquitous superiority eye roll I'm sure you can tell me why I did something better than I can tell myself.

 

[RI Patriots fan]

Judging by the ubiquitous superiority eye roll I'm sure you can tell me why I did something better than I can tell myself.

Well, I can certainly spot a lame excuse...

 

[everlong]

I makes no excuses for why I left nor has it been decision I've ever regretted. The close mindedness is amazing.

 

[RI Patriots fan]

I makes no excuses for why I left nor has it been decision I've ever regretted. The close mindedness is amazing.

You left because you don't believe in what the church teaches.

 

[Lifer]

I wwant to hear why he doesnt want to help the homeless

 

[everlong]

You left because you don't believe in what the church teaches.

That was certainly part of it. I also believe their actions are different than their teachings. Their wealth is amazing and disproportionate to their charity or what I believe it should be.

My wife and I were in Rome and visited the Vatican and went to the Vatican gift shop. The high pressure sales were insane. They were trying to get us to buy these plastic rosaries for $75 that were plastic and probably didn't cost 75 cents to manufacture. You could have a cheap wooden one for $250 and I didn't want to know what the silver or gold cost. But they were blessed by the pope so that justified it I guess. This was 1996 so I can only imagine what they would charge now. I had wanted to buy my grandmother a devout Catholic a gift from there but couldn't justify that. I bought her a really nice cameo in Sorrento later for over a $100 that was lovely.

Second when we got married both of us being from Catholic upbringings we going to get married in the church. The first priest we met with was such an arrogant @ss who wanted to tell me exactly how to live my life and how much of my check I should be giving to the church it was ridiculous. My wife's look pleading with me not to tell him off was all that kept me from doing so. He was very old school rigid with zero ground for debate.

There's a third reason that happened after that which has to do with my spirituality that I don't want to get into but when I looked at Christianity I found it vacant of meaning or hope for me. Thus completing my exit. It's hard to drop something that was part of your upbringing and thus it was a long trip but in the end I don't agree with a great deal of the values and teachings.

 

[RI Patriots fan]

That was certainly part of it. I also believe their actions are different than their teachings. Their wealth is amazing and disproportionate to their charity or what I believe it should be.

My wife and I were in Rome and visited the Vatican and went to the Vatican gift shop. The high pressure sales were insane. They were trying to get us to buy these plastic rosaries for $75 that were plastic and probably didn't cost 75 cents to manufacture. You could have a cheap wooden one for $250 and I didn't want to know what the silver or gold cost. But they were blessed by the pope so that justified it I guess. This was 1996 so I can only imagine what they would charge now. I had wanted to buy my grandmother a devout Catholic a gift from there but couldn't justify that. I bought her a really nice cameo in Sorrento later for over a $100 that was lovely.

Second when we got married both of us being from Catholic upbringings we going to get married in the church. The first priest we met with was such an arrogant @ss who wanted to tell me exactly how to live my life and how much of my check I should be giving to the church it was ridiculous. My wife's look pleading with me not to tell him off was all that kept me from doing so. He was very old school rigid with zero ground for debate.

There's a third reason that happened after that which has to do with my spirituality that I don't want to get into but when I looked at Christianity I found it vacant of meaning or hope for me. Thus completing my exit. It's hard to drop something that was part of your upbringing and thus it was a long trip but in the end I don't agree with a great deal of the values and teachings.

So let me get this straight.....you left the church because the Vatican gift shop charged too much for rosaries, some parish priest was an @ss, and you didn't believe in Christianity.

Ok, like I said....you left because you didn't believe. That's the bottom line. Because if you did believe, you would have stayed and fought to make the church a better place. It was your lack of faith that made you leave...not the vatican gift shop....not the jerk priest.

Be honest....if the vatican gift shop gave everything away and the jerk priest was really nice and everyone in the church was perfect, would you have stayed and been perfect too and followed what the church teaches?

I think we both know the answer to that question. You still would have left.
At the very least, own up to the true reason you left. Your lack of faith.

 

[DarrylS]

The tap dance continues, still refuses why he refuses to help the homeless..

Have always found it interesting that those who question someone else's faith, and while doing so believe they are some how morally superior...

There is no high ground here, religion is an intensely personal thing that should never be questioned by others.. not matter the reason.

 

[RI Patriots fan]

The tap dance continues, still refuses why he refuses to help the homeless..

Have always found it interesting that those who question someone else's faith, and while doing so believe they are some how morally superior...

There is no high ground here, religion is an intensely personal thing that should never be questioned by others.. not matter the reason.

Do you belong to a church? You said you did although you havent had the courage to say which one.

Are you posting about religion on a religion board?

Interesting choice for a man who believes religion is "intensely" personal thing.

So a guy who thinks that religion is "intensely personal" belongs to a church and posts on a religion board about....religion. Makes perfect sense

 

[PatsFanInVa]

The old testament doesn't predate the Catholic Church. Just think about it for a second. Why would Jews name something the "Old" Testament when there was no "New" Testament?

I'd like to think you're joking rather than plain stupid.

Which?

PFnV

 

[everlong]

So let me get this straight.....you left the church because the Vatican gift shop charged too much for rosaries, some parish priest was an @ss, and you didn't believe in Christianity.

Ok, like I said....you left because you didn't believe. That's the bottom line. Because if you did believe, you would have stayed and fought to make the church a better place. It was your lack of faith that made you leave...not the vatican gift shop....not the jerk priest.

Be honest....if the vatican gift shop gave everything away and the jerk priest was really nice and everyone in the church was perfect, would you have stayed and been perfect too and followed what the church teaches?

I think we both know the answer to that question. You still would have left.
At the very least, own up to the true reason you left. Your lack of faith.

It's hard to drop something that was part of your upbringing and thus it was a long trip but in the end I don't agree with a great deal of the values and teachings.

If you had actually read my entire post especially the summation you would have seen that I never said it was just because of the gift shop. That was one example of many things that turned me off. I could have listed the 3 collections every week, the priests raping young boys and the church trying to cover it up for years in place of doing the right thing.

I have no lack of faith. In fact I actually have a very strong faith for my beliefs they just aren't the Catholic Church teachings.

Shame on me because when you posted that I left because I didn't believe in the Church's teaching I actually thought that you were attempting to have actual discourse without an agenda so I attempted to reciprocate with some of the reasons that led up to it. I'll never make that mistake again.

 

[everlong]

The old testament doesn't predate the Catholic Church. Just think about it for a second. Why would Jews name something the "Old" Testament when there was no "New" Testament?

Because they simply refer to it as the Tanakh or Torah?............Really?

 

[RI Patriots fan]

I'd like to think you're joking rather than plain stupid.

Which?

PFnV

Nope...not joking at all.

 

[RI Patriots fan]

Because they simply refer to it as the Tanakh or Torah?............Really?

The Torah is the first 5 books of the Tanakh.

 

[RI Patriots fan]

It's hard to drop something that was part of your upbringing and thus it was a long trip but in the end I don't agree with a great deal of the values and teachings.

If you had actually read my entire post especially the summation you would have seen that I never said it was just because of the gift shop. That was one example of many things that turned me off. I could have listed the 3 collections every week, the priests raping young boys and the church trying to cover it up for years in place of doing the right thing.

I have no lack of faith. In fact I actually have a very strong faith for my beliefs they just aren't the Catholic Church teachings.

Shame on me because when you posted that I left because I didn't believe in the Church's teaching I actually thought that you were attempting to have actual discourse without an agenda so I attempted to reciprocate with some of the reasons that led up to it. I'll never make that mistake again.

Yes, thank goodness you have no agenda.

But yes, you left the church because you didn't believe in what she taught. The rest is window dressing.

 

[everlong]

The Torah is the first 5 books of the Tanakh.

Yes I know but then why were you such an idiot saying the new testament BS?

 

[everlong]

Yes, thank goodness you have no agenda.

But yes, you left the church because you didn't believe in what she taught. The rest is window dressing.

No the rest is the history leading up to the decision. You have such a parochial view on everything. I don't know why you can't connect the dots to see my point that it was a long list of things that led to the final decision.

I don't have an agenda. I begrudge nobody their faith. You do. Everybody should practice just like you. If I have an agenda it's against that type of thinking. Just because I'm not Catholic any longer I do not believe everybody should do as I do. You on the other hand think there's one way.

Either way I'm done wasting time on you in any thread. You are closed minded, condescending and a know it all who deflects or ignores any arguments you know you cannot win. There's really no upside to interacting with you so I'm done.