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Pope Francis says Atheists Can Be saved..


I don't have an agenda. I begrudge nobody their faith.



"If he condones birth control, premarital sex, homosexuality and a few other things I'm forgetting maybe I'll un-excommunicate myself and go to midnight mass with a certain RI poster to praise Jesus. Oh and admit he never rode a dinosaur of course" - Everlong


Yes, no agenda there whatsoever. Glad to see you don't begrudge anyone their faith. :rolleyes:
 
Nope...not joking at all.

Right. Okayyyyyy. As has been pointed out previously, Jews don't refer to the Tanakh as the "Old Testament." You don't actually believe otherwise, do you?

I mean real live Jews, not some made-up theoretical Jews you reach through some tortured chain of illogic. I don't call the Hebrew bible the "old testament." My orthodox relatives don't. No Jew I know does, nor have any Jews I've ever heard or read about.

Did you just not know this, or are you about to hop on the crazy train and defend this bizarre assertion?

PFnV
 
Right. Okayyyyyy. As has been pointed out previously, Jews don't refer to the Tanakh as the "Old Testament." You don't actually believe otherwise, do you?

I mean real live Jews, not some made-up theoretical Jews you reach through some tortured chain of illogic. I don't call the Hebrew bible the "old testament." My orthodox relatives don't. No Jew I know does, nor have any Jews I've ever heard or read about.

Did you just not know this, or are you about to hop on the crazy train and defend this bizarre assertion?

PFnV



The point I was trying to make was that the entire Jewish Canon was probably not formalized before the Catholic church was formed.
 
Shouldn't have led with such a howler then :)

So now your assertion is simply that the canon was not set in Judaism before the early Christian church began -- to what end?

Certainly the equivalent measure in Christianity, the setting of the Christian canon, did not happen for centuries more.

Also without question, "the Church" as you're thinking of it -- the comparatively modern Catholic Church, with a set canon, monks, priests, orders, a true papacy (rather than a "first among equals" pontiff,) and even the belief that Jesus' return would happen at a point in the indefinite future -- did not exist for centuries more.

If you mean to say that a comparatively inchoate collection of Christian gospels, beliefs, and practices existed in the late first century C.E. (after all, Jamnia was in 90,) fine. Jesus was, after all, crucified, sometime around 30. Those who believed in him then would of necessity style themselves the first believers; if the sect survived, it would of necessity date itself from that time, and in retrospect, those who constructed a central institution later would of necessity date it to the activities of the earliest believers.

And?

Being a reform Jew, I hold that Judaism -- like Christianity -- is still evolving today. However, to attempt to place their origins in the same spot in history is the purest ignorance; that point in time represents a turning point in Judaism, and an origin point (not to say an Origen point) in Christianity.

Your church in 90 CE encompassed a fair variety of beliefs and practices, none of which would look very "Catholic" by your present standards. It probably already included a fair representation of gnostic beliefs and thought. You could argue that the "true church" was already fighting all such influences, yet we don't even have the writings on which the "true church" was based as of the time of the Jewish canon's being set.

Similarly, very different pressures went into the recording of the Jewish canon and the Christian canon. In the first instance, it was the collection of what "mattered" among the literature of a "defeated" people. The temple lay in ruins, so the Saducees were destroyed; the zealots were obviously beaten; the apocalyptic sects (like the Essenes) were pretty much shown to be wrong. Only the Pharisees had a vision of a Judaism that survived the destruction of the Temple, and to preserve and nurture that form of Judaism, they needed to define the texts that at this point were the faith. This was the end, once and for all, of the ancient theocracy and its successor states -- and it was the end of the temple cult. Only Torah -- learning -- and the messianic hope survived the Temple's fall.

In Christianity, the completion of the canon happened in the presence of pressure from Rome to define one of the now-sanctioned religions of Rome, alongside the cult of Sol Invictus, worship of the "older" Greco-Roman gods (e.g. Jupiter, etymologically perhaps Zeus Pater, dropping the "Z"), Mithraism, and perhaps some others. Constantine's first Nicean Council didn't set the canon, but did attempt to unify Christianity, an end which it by no means achieved.

After Constantine, the competing Christianities laying claim to his successor's beliefs (particularly Arianism) led to a demand for an official Christianity, particularly when Christianity became the state religion of Rome in the late fourth century. In 381, Christianity became Rome's state religion. In 382, Pope Domasus I called a Council of Rome and in 383, he commissioned the Vulgate bible. Do the math. Of course, there was disagreement among the Eastern and North African churches, especially on the book of Revelation but also about other bits.

The need for a homogeneous Christianity had more to do with the state than the church, in my opinion; whereas the destruction of the Jewish state made the relatively quick identification of the Jewish canon important.

The silly exercise of dating a "church" (with very different beliefs, characteristics, and texts) to before the Jewish canon stinks of a desire to establish one church's need for authenticating "evidence" above the facts on the historic record.

PFnV
 
The old testament doesn't predate the Catholic Church. Just think about it for a second. Why would Jews name something the "Old" Testament when there was no "New" Testament?

As Chris Rock would say "Are you out of your mind???" The Catholic Church was around BEFORE the Old Testament. The Pope declared Adam and Eve sinners or something? And you think people back then called scripture the Old Testament? You ARE a special kind of stupid arent you? And take it from someone who needed to mature and grow in the Faith himself, insulting people, continually giving them eyeball rolls, showing lack of compassion to people,......frankly, i dont see a lot of the Holy Spirit in what you say. I see lots of religion. And so do other people. Just stop and reassess what it is you are trying to represent.
 
Not an unfamiliar tactic. Muslims insist that all the Jews who mattered were Muslims, just pre-Mohammad Muslims. What can I say, doctrinal difference -- we should be at war over these things? LOL

Here's some news. Judaism isn't the oldest religion running around either. It has a fair claim to being the earliest monotheism, although you can also just as fairly give that honor to Akhenatun's rule in Egypt. Of course, he was hated for his concentration of all worship on the sun disk. It's interesting though that around the time of the Exodus -- perhaps a few decades before -- there was mass consciousness of monotheistic belief in Egypt, where Moses lived as part of the ruling class.

It's just so much more interesting to say "meh, I worship how I worship, I'm happy with that... now, as to the history: What really did happen?"

PFnV
 
By the way on Francis?

"The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart: do good and do not do evil. All of us. ‘But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.’ Yes, he can... "The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone!".. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

Hope I'll meet ya there, Francis :)

Believe what you want about being washed in the blood o Christ, I don't. But what's the point really, the doctrine or doing good?

I regret asking already.

PFnV
 
Not an unfamiliar tactic. Muslims insist that all the Jews who mattered were Muslims, just pre-Mohammad Muslims. What can I say, doctrinal difference -- we should be at war over these things? LOL

Here's some news. Judaism isn't the oldest religion running around either. It has a fair claim to being the earliest monotheism, although you can also just as fairly give that honor to Akhenatun's rule in Egypt. Of course, he was hated for his concentration of all worship on the sun disk. It's interesting though that around the time of the Exodus -- perhaps a few decades before -- there was mass consciousness of monotheistic belief in Egypt, where Moses lived as part of the ruling class.

It's just so much more interesting to say "meh, I worship how I worship, I'm happy with that... now, as to the history: What really did happen?"

PFnV
I do truly regret the way i went out expressing my "zeal" 6 or 7 years back. As you had correctly pointed out at the time, I was fairly new in my Faith, I was a spiritual baby. I dont disbelieve anything I believed back then, but the way i went about things could have been much different. Please know my motivation was and is that i believed/believe what i believe to be true and i so dont/didnt want anyone not to see Heaven. It was never a dark motivation. Again, i apologize for the disrespect i showed to you or anyone else.

I have in my experience with Christians and Christianity seen very dark motivations and while i dont question my Faith in Jesus I have seen the con job of many churches and the political and controlling motivations of many Christians. I believe it would make Jesus sick.

I do expect when people try to represent Jesus they at least get SOME scripture correctly and that they leave arrogance and condescention and lack of compassion for the least of these out of it.
 
Certainly the equivalent measure in Christianity, the setting of the Christian canon, did not happen for centuries more.

Also without question, "the Church" as you're thinking of it -- the comparatively modern Catholic Church, with a set canon, monks, priests, orders, a true papacy (rather than a "first among equals" pontiff,) and even the belief that Jesus' return would happen at a point in the indefinite future -- did not exist for centuries more.

If you mean to say that a comparatively inchoate collection of Christian gospels, beliefs, and practices existed in the late first century C.E. (after all, Jamnia was in 90,) fine. Jesus was, after all, crucified, sometime around 30. Those who believed in him then would of necessity style themselves the first believers; if the sect survived, it would of necessity date itself from that time, and in retrospect, those who constructed a central institution later would of necessity date it to the activities of the earliest believers.

And?

Being a reform Jew, I hold that Judaism -- like Christianity -- is still evolving today. However, to attempt to place their origins in the same spot in history is the purest ignorance; that point in time represents a turning point in Judaism, and an origin point (not to say an Origen point) in Christianity.

Your church in 90 CE encompassed a fair variety of beliefs and practices, none of which would look very "Catholic" by your present standards. It probably already included a fair representation of gnostic beliefs and thought. You could argue that the "true church" was already fighting all such influences, yet we don't even have the writings on which the "true church" was based as of the time of the Jewish canon's being set.

Similarly, very different pressures went into the recording of the Jewish canon and the Christian canon. In the first instance, it was the collection of what "mattered" among the literature of a "defeated" people. The temple lay in ruins, so the Saducees were destroyed; the zealots were obviously beaten; the apocalyptic sects (like the Essenes) were pretty much shown to be wrong. Only the Pharisees had a vision of a Judaism that survived the destruction of the Temple, and to preserve and nurture that form of Judaism, they needed to define the texts that at this point were the faith. This was the end, once and for all, of the ancient theocracy and its successor states -- and it was the end of the temple cult. Only Torah -- learning -- and the messianic hope survived the Temple's fall.

In Christianity, the completion of the canon happened in the presence of pressure from Rome to define one of the now-sanctioned religions of Rome, alongside the cult of Sol Invictus, worship of the "older" Greco-Roman gods (e.g. Jupiter, etymologically perhaps Zeus Pater, dropping the "Z"), Mithraism, and perhaps some others. Constantine's first Nicean Council didn't set the canon, but did attempt to unify Christianity, an end which it by no means achieved.

After Constantine, the competing Christianities laying claim to his successor's beliefs (particularly Arianism) led to a demand for an official Christianity, particularly when Christianity became the state religion of Rome in the late fourth century. In 381, Christianity became Rome's state religion. In 382, Pope Domasus I called a Council of Rome and in 383, he commissioned the Vulgate bible. Do the math. Of course, there was disagreement among the Eastern and North African churches, especially on the book of Revelation but also about other bits.

The need for a homogeneous Christianity had more to do with the state than the church, in my opinion; whereas the destruction of the Jewish state made the relatively quick identification of the Jewish canon important.

The silly exercise of dating a "church" (with very different beliefs, characteristics, and texts) to before the Jewish canon stinks of a desire to establish one church's need for authenticating "evidence" above the facts on the historic record.

PFnV



Thanks for this lesson in Catholic church history. I had no idea the Catholic church has developed its doctrine, devotions, and disciplines over time. :rolleyes:

The "completion" of the Catholic canon of the scriptures didn't happen definitively until 1546 at the Council of Trent with "De Canonicis Scripturis" when the Catholic church actually defined the canon.

Let me guess.....the Romans influenced that as well? :rolleyes:
How can you discuss the Catholic canon and ignore this fact entirely?

The church that we have today and the church of the Apostles still have the same foundational beliefs. There has been no new revelation after the death of the last Apostle and any development in doctrine is both true to the original deposit of faith that we have received from the Apostles and has not contradicted it.

Just because the church has evolved and grown doesn't mean that there wasn't a true beginning.
 
As Chris Rock would say "Are you out of your mind???" The Catholic Church was around BEFORE the Old Testament. The Pope declared Adam and Eve sinners or something? And you think people back then called scripture the Old Testament? You ARE a special kind of stupid arent you? And take it from someone who needed to mature and grow in the Faith himself, insulting people, continually giving them eyeball rolls, showing lack of compassion to people,......frankly, i dont see a lot of the Holy Spirit in what you say. I see lots of religion. And so do other people. Just stop and reassess what it is you are trying to represent.



"Again, i apologize for the disrespect i showed to you or anyone else"

- Lifer


Hypocrisy dully noted .....


P.S. You obviously didn't understand what I was trying to say. Your ignorance doesn't surprise me.
 
By the way on Francis?



Hope I'll meet ya there, Francis :)

Believe what you want about being washed in the blood o Christ, I don't. But what's the point really, the doctrine or doing good?

I regret asking already.

PFnV



The point is the redemption.....without it, there could be no salvation.

The good that we do just brings us closer to accepting it.
 
What a selfish doctrine!
 
I do truly regret the way i went out expressing my "zeal" 6 or 7 years back. As you had correctly pointed out at the time, I was fairly new in my Faith, I was a spiritual baby. I dont disbelieve anything I believed back then, but the way i went about things could have been much different. Please know my motivation was and is that i believed/believe what i believe to be true and i so dont/didnt want anyone not to see Heaven. It was never a dark motivation. Again, i apologize for the disrespect i showed to you or anyone else.

I have in my experience with Christians and Christianity seen very dark motivations and while i dont question my Faith in Jesus I have seen the con job of many churches and the political and controlling motivations of many Christians. I believe it would make Jesus sick.

I do expect when people try to represent Jesus they at least get SOME scripture correctly and that they leave arrogance and condescention and lack of compassion for the least of these out of it.

:( Believe it or not, I also regret the zeal I far too often show in playing the part of the goad in some of these discussions. I apologize (in the broad sense, rather than in the sense of "create arguments to prop up"...) if I was so abrasive back then that there were any hard feelings.

I've had some ugly back-and-forths with the more zealous in my own faith too.

On a recently re-run South Park episode there's a superhero called Captain Hindsight. He leaps into action to say with perfect hindsight "they should have done X, Y, and Z." He loses his super power when he starts thinking of what he himself did... the moral of the story being that we're always learning, and when the learning sticks, it usually leaves an "I can't believe I did/said that" feeling when we look back.

All this to say, don't go there on my account & I'll try not to go there on yours -- let's just say we're both always learning. Whatever God is watching must want that -- given the amount of attention he paid to our ability to learn :)
 
As a Jew who leans toward (but certainly does not observe) Orthodox teaching, I can appreciate the scholarly tradition of the Catholic Church.

I'm going to stop there because I simply don't have time to get into a deep theological discussion the way I used to back in the day. Suffice to say, though, that at the highest levels, there are some definitive differences in how Catholics view the Bible versus, say, an evangelical Christian.

The odd thing, though, is that it seems some of the more active Catholic posters here tend to take a view that shares a lot in common with conservative evangelical Christianity. It's a little surprising.
 
"Again, i apologize for the disrespect i showed to you or anyone else"

- Lifer


Hypocrisy dully noted .....


P.S. You obviously didn't understand what I was trying to say. Your ignorance doesn't surprise me.

"Give us a kiss" - John Lennon "A Hard Days Night"
 
As a Jew who leans toward (but certainly does not observe) Orthodox teaching, I can appreciate the scholarly tradition of the Catholic Church.

I'm going to stop there because I simply don't have time to get into a deep theological discussion the way I used to back in the day. Suffice to say, though, that at the highest levels, there are some definitive differences in how Catholics view the Bible versus, say, an evangelical Christian.

The odd thing, though, is that it seems some of the more active Catholic posters here tend to take a view that shares a lot in common with conservative evangelical Christianity. It's a little surprising.



Yes, I've often found it interesting that evangelicals and Catholics argree on many, many things. But being said, there are some fundamental differences which are quite important.
 
The point is the redemption.....without it, there could be no salvation.

The good that we do just brings us closer to accepting it.

"The good that we do" is not because we should do good or do anything for our fellow man. It's to get the goodies.

That's what I meant.

But I accept that you've moved the goalposts to "redemption of all mankind."

Of course, that begs the question of why one does good at all, since you don't get much bigger than "redemption of all mankind." According to your formulation, doing good acts sort of like corrective lenses, and once we do enough meaningless good, we get close enough that we can get "redeemed" at the holy ticket booth or somesuch.

Then we get the goodies.

But this is where the argument becomes unimportant; if we're doing good things, the good things get done, and the ends become unimportant from an objective standpoint. Of course, that's assuming we both define "good" the same way, which is one "o" away from us defining "God" the same way... that is to say, a dubious proposition.

PFnV
 


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