Penalties being considered for the Pats - UPDATED 1/1/2020

[Yehoodi]

Breer on Beetle and Zo said the cameraman set up the camera on a tripod and walked away.

hmm this is interesting. My guess is that this will come out a lot more harmless than folks think.

 

[Chris Stevenson]

Not sure, but I think the league is saying don't film in a place out in the open like the stands...

All stadiums have camera perches. That's essentially what it means. The rule was meant to isolate the camera person from the side of the stadium for example.

I remember in 2008 when ESPN showed us some of the tapes that the NFL confiscated, and they were so sloppy with their framejob of the Pats, one showed Matt Walsh at the top of Heinz Field all by himself in broad daylight in the 2001 title game.

1. This was the AFC title game, so there was no way this would be for a future game's purposes that season. This proves it's nothing more than a cataloging and a due diligence of scouting during a game for future possible use.

2. Walsh, was in no way, shape or form, going to be able to run down at halftime to show BB hand signals in some secret room to help NE score a bunch of points in the second half.

I can't believe I actually just typed point #2.

So, why would Pitt give NE a perch across from their own sideline if filming was illegal?

I mean, this is how sloppy Goodell's people are with the framejobs.

Deflategate had about a dozen inconsistencies/non-sensical elements to it as well.

 

[Chris Stevenson]

hmm this is interesting. My guess is that this will come out a lot more harmless than folks think.

Of course it SHOULD. With Goodell, though, he's framed us 2 other times, so we really have no trust in him.

I would say, I want to see the tape. And, if he does punish, Kraft should demand it gets presented to the NFL customer so we can see if Goodell is cheating yet again.

As per usual, the media paints a narrative that slanders, and Kraft just sits there.

 

[Yehoodi]

The Anderson (2006) memo seems pretty clear-

“Videotaping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent’s offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches’ booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game.”

The NFL Constitution (pre-2006) says something else

“Any use by any club at any time, from the start to the finish of any game in which such club is a participant, of any communications or information-gathering equipment, other than Polaroid-type cameras or field telephones, shall be prohibited, including without limitation videotape machines, telephone tapping, or bugging devices, or any other form of electronic devices that might aid a team during the playing of a game.”

League’s operations manual (2007):

“No video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches’ booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game.” Furthermore, all video shooting locations for shooting purposes “must be enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead.”

So basically, overall, the NFL rules were not clear as to what type of video taping was permitted. The Operations Manual and Anderson memo say one thing, and the Bylaws say something else. In any event, I believe Bill was given a warning 3 times not to do it and he kept doing it. He should have stopped or gotten clarification.

Thanks for providing these quotes. I have always read these to read together as follows:

1) You can not record coaches signals regardless of the location.

2) An All 22 camera is allowed (which does not focus on the sidelines) but this camera must be in an enclosed area. Or in another words, some filming is allowed, but the camera must be enclosed with a roof overhead.

 

[Chris Stevenson]

Sorry, if the coach’s box is prohibited, what is the enclosed area that people are supposed to film from?

Again, there are perches for cameras throughout a stadium. The whole "enclosed with a roof overhead", I believe means a camera big enough not to be portable to show something to a person with decision making capabilities.

Again, that's why all the locations are noted where a coach may physically be present.

And, of course, this was written a while back pre smartphones and our last decade's worth of technology changing so rapidly, they may have altered the wording since in some ways.

 

[Yehoodi]

I spent a few moments last night over at Chiefs Planet trying to have a discussion with them on the matter, but they have their own opinion on the matter.

Like fans of other teams, they have their own opinion even though not all of the facts are out.

 

[Chris Stevenson]

The guy was in a press conference few mins ago answering questions like he's stone cold pissed about this. He's perpetuating this issue for no good reason. He's not even a 1 year coach. He's got 1 win. STFU dude.

I got that vibe, too with his tone when asked about it after the Bungles game on Sunday. He's an arrogant McVay coaching tree guy.

This is what I mean about their arrogance in handling what is clearly a non-issue.

BB and Kraft cannot sit idly by here.

 

[Yehoodi]

Of course it SHOULD. With Goodell, though, he's framed us 2 other times, so we really have no trust in him.

I would say, I want to see the tape. And, if he does punish, Kraft should demand it gets presented to the NFL customer so we can see if Goodell is cheating yet again.

As per usual, the media paints a narrative that slanders, and Kraft just sits there.

I am afraid something like this will happen. I would too love to see the tape so all folks can see what is going on with this issue.

My gut feeling is that is it not a bit issue, but time will tell.

 

[Yehoodi]

It should but people inside the league don't want it to. Look at cinci's coach in that press conference just saying 'No Comment' over and over. Be easy to say: "It may be a big mistake but if not the league will figure it out and deal with it". Everyone is petty. Yes - the pats need to steal signals from you coach..from you and your 1 win team. See you on the unemployment line in 1.5 years you can come wash my floors for minimum wage.

yah i hear yah. . .

 

[Tottie]

I got that vibe, too with his tone when asked about it after the Bungles game on Sunday. He's an arrogant McVay coaching tree guy.

This is what I mean about their arrogance in handling what is clearly a non-issue.

BB and Kraft cannot sit idly by here.

The league needs to be better and not allow this ****. All that said I know i'm talking for nothing. We know what has happened in the past. Murder convictions for traffic violation comes to mind as an analogy. We'll see what happens. I don't see them taking picks away but nothing about the NFL makes sense. I just wish people would man up and stop being babies.

Edit: Also want to note that we aren't innocent either. To ME it was a huge mistake but how the HECK do we not protect against these things. That said it is a minor non-issue in my eyes and a small fine would be more than fair to satisfy the mob. Problem is they won't be satisfied until they get more. Hopefully that means a large fine and nothing else.

Those people in that press box should of helped that guy. Whoever it is I hope he doesn't lose his job because of petty behavior.

 

[Chris Stevenson]

Bill Cowher: “You know, let me just say this: To answer your question, no, I don’t think so (it’s not an advantage for one team over another).
I just know as a head coach, you are always looking for a competitive edge. We had people out there trying to look at signals. We had guys go to games. They would tape the signal caller and also write it down. They would take it back and match up the signals with the game film and certain defenses with certain plays that were being called, particularly the defenses being called, to see if we could come up with some kind of an alert for a signal. So, what they did with videotaping the signal caller, people do it with the people in the stands!!
These people sitting there in the stands, looking at the signal, writing it down and matching up the 1st and 10 signal. Ok? Then you go back again and the 2nd and 10 and here’s the signal. You do that for a whole game.
You then go back and match up the defenses with the signal. And you can come up with what the signal was.
So, you don;’t need a video tape with what they were talking about doing. And people were doing it. WE were doing that. Everybody does that. You’re TRYING to gain a competitive edge. There is nothing wrong with that.
That’s why baseball players go through the mirage of signals. They’ve got all these different codes. That’s part of the competitive spirit of the game. I think it’s totally overblown. I think if you get caught (signals compromised), then do what we did and go to wristbands, you are worried about it. We started putting defenses on wristbands. Then you find a way to not get caught (signals compromised). When your good at something and people try steal from ya, I think it’s flattering.”



All teams did what NE was doing. The point is, NE won 3 SBs in 4 years, and jealous teams actually thought this was some kind of an advantage, but only for NE.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

I spent a few moments last night over at Chiefs Planet trying to have a discussion with them on the matter, but they have their own opinion on the matter.

Like fans of other teams, they have their own opinion even though not all of the facts are out.

70% of the country doesn't have a college degree...

 

[Chris Stevenson]

The league needs to be better and not allow this ****. All that said I know i'm talking for nothing. We know what has happened in the past. Murder convictions for traffic violation comes to mind as an analogy. We'll see what happens. I don't see them taking picks away but nothing about the NFL makes sense. I just wish people would man up and stop being babies.

Edit: Also want to note that we aren't innocent either. To ME it was a huge mistake but how the HECK do we not protect against these things. That said it is a minor non-issue in my eyes and a small fine would be more than fair to satisfy the mob. Problem is they won't be satisfied until they get more. Hopefully that means a large fine and nothing else.

Those people in that press box should of helped that guy. Whoever it is I hope he doesn't lose his job because of petty behavior.

I am not sure if "innocent" is the right word here. I 100% percent agree that I am sometimes shocked at how they don't seem to get that teams and even fans who whine about this, the media who loves this ********, all are constantly seeking any angle possible to get a platform to frame the Pats.

The media in particular has made MILLIONS off of lying about the Pats in these case. Millions.

They just want the money.

This is sort of the issue I have with Kraft playing both sides of the fence here. I think that Goodell and the owners know he'll capitulate at some point, because Bob likes his big boy seat at the table, which is why he never goes nuclear with his words. I find it annoying when we know the truth.

WE, as HIS customers come first, not the other 31 teams. He just wants the money himself and what comes with it like with his perch on the broadcast committee, etc. I have always gotten the impression Jonathan isn't as keen on that political crap and that power, and would have no issue articulating any unfairness and/or actual cheating by Goodell, as Goodell lies to over-sell something that either was very minor (Spygate) or something that actually never even happened (Deflatgate).

And, I am sorry, the way Cincy is handling this is not a good look on their part.

I would imagine the idea a team like NE seemingly has it all, which, technically, we do, compared to 90% of the NFL, even the act of filming a documentary segment like this would appear arrogant and sort of self-promoting, which it kind of is, but Kraft is doing it for the fans.

That's the irony of all of this: Here is NE literally being 100% transparent for a day in the life of an advanced scout, and if Cincy thinks we're arrogant shooting that documentary scene like that, that jealousy goes from that to "they're cheating" as well.

I am convinced that the owners have meetings behind Kraft's back and he doesn't know it.

 

[Hammer of Thor]

Of course it SHOULD. With Goodell, though, he's framed us 2 other times, so we really have no trust in him.

I would say, I want to see the tape. And, if he does punish, Kraft should demand it gets presented to the NFL customer so we can see if Goodell is cheating yet again.

As per usual, the media paints a narrative that slanders, and Kraft just sits there.

Yeah, it’s based on what Goody wants at the time. We know what the deflate gate motivations were, no need to rehash them.

For Spygate, remember that Goodell came out in public and said BB lied to his face. When was the last time you heard BB accused of lying? Players tend not to trash him on the way out because they say he’s more up front to them about roles, opportunities, what they need to do, etc. than any other coach. Goodell on the other hand is a proven liar with proof in the legal system for posterity (Brady testimony transcript versus Goodell letter). We’ve also heard Goodell has a bad temper and goes by his gut for a lot of things (from Rams relocation story), and relishes his role as absolute ruler of the NFL in his mind.

My favorite Spygate explanation that I heard which encompasses everything..... when Goodell called BB into his office for his interview, BB said he interpreted bylaws in his own way, and the memo doesn’t matter because the bylaws say something else and it overrules his memo. Goodell said you can’t ignore my memo. BB said what authority do you have to change the bylaws without owner approval? That caused Goodell to go ballistic (it’s my job to interpret the bylaws, not yours, and I didn’t change anything!) and led to his over the top penalty, and then he destroyed the evidence to sweep his ridiculous ruling under the rug. That ultimately backfired on him because it made people think there was more to the violation than there was (especially since BB was always a line-pusher on things in general, from the old school way that Parcells, Jimmy Johnson, etc. operated). That of course led to why he orchestrated the deflate gate frame job, to clean up his own mess.

 

[Tottie]

Agree 100% on Kraft playing both sides and the press needing these things to make money and keeping justifying their existence with the amount of people paid to give their opinions these days.

 

[Chris Stevenson]

Thanks for providing these quotes. I have always read these to read together as follows:

1) You can not record coaches signals regardless of the location.

2) An All 22 camera is allowed (which does not focus on the sidelines) but this camera must be in an enclosed area. Or in another words, some filming is allowed, but the camera must be enclosed with a roof overhead.

You're wrong on point #1.

Even by accident, someone motioning might get into the lens of a camera.

Again, this is all because NE won 3 SBs in 4 years and a dynasty is bad for business.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Yeah, it’s based on what Goody wants at the time. We know what the deflate gate motivations were, no need to rehash them.

For Spygate, remember that Goodell came out in public and said BB lied to his face. When was the last time you heard BB accused of lying? Players tend not to trash him on the way out because they say he’s more up front to them about roles, opportunities, what they need to do, etc. than any other coach. Goodell on the other hand is a proven liar with proof in the legal system for posterity (Brady testimony transcript versus Goodell letter). We’ve also heard Goodell has a bad temper and goes by his gut for a lot of things (from Rams relocation story), and relishes his role as absolute ruler of the NFL in his mind.

My favorite Spygate explanation that I heard which encompasses everything..... when a Goodell called BB into his office for his interview, BB said he interpreted bylaws in his own way, and the memo doesn’t matter because the bylaws say something else and it overrules his memo. Goodell said you can’t ignore my memo. BB said what authority do you have to change the bylaws without owner approval? That caused Goodell to go ballistic (it’s my job to interpret the bylaws, not yours, and I didn’t change anything!) and led to his over the top penalty, and then he destroyed the evidence to sweep his ridiculous ruling under the rug. That ultimately backfired on him because it made people think there was more to the violation than there was (especially since BB was always a line-pusher on things in general, from the old school way that Parcells, Jimmy Johnson, etc. operated). That of course led to why he orchestrated the deflate gate frame job, to clean up his own mess.

Bill is a terrible people person...

 

[Tottie]

The NFL loves this stuff deep down. Wouldn't shock me to see them move the game this week to primetime (won't happen) even though they are a 1 win team just to zoom in on the post game handshake between the 2 coaches.

 

[Chris Stevenson]

Yeah, it’s based on what Goody wants at the time. We know what the deflate gate motivations were, no need to rehash them.

For Spygate, remember that Goodell came out in public and said BB lied to his face. When was the last time you heard BB accused of lying? Players tend not to trash him on the way out because they say he’s more up front to them about roles, opportunities, what they need to do, etc. than any other coach. Goodell on the other hand is a proven liar with proof in the legal system for posterity (Brady testimony transcript versus Goodell letter). We’ve also heard Goodell has a bad temper and goes by his gut for a lot of things (from Rams relocation story), and relishes his role as absolute ruler of the NFL in his mind.

My favorite Spygate explanation that I heard which encompasses everything..... when a Goodell called BB into his office for his interview, BB said he interpreted bylaws in his own way, and the memo doesn’t matter because the bylaws say something else and it overrules his memo. Goodell said you can’t ignore my memo. BB said what authority do you have to change the bylaws without owner approval? That caused Goodell to go ballistic (it’s my job to interpret the bylaws, not yours!) and led to his over the top penalty, and then he destroyed the evidence to sweep his ridiculous ruling under the rug. That ultimately backfired on him because it made people think there was more to the violation than there was (especially since BB was always a line-pusher on things in general, from the old school way that Parcells, Jimmy Johnson, etc. operated). That of course led to why he orchestrated the deflate gate frame job, to clean up his own mess.

You need to source that. What I remember is the report of Goodell didn't believe what BB was saying in terms of the Constitution and Bylaws trumping the gameday manual.

BB even did an interview on it with Armen Keteyian.

And, the thing is, BB is right, Goodell just didn't like it. And, as we've learned years later, his lawyers told him he could bastardize "Article 46" in these cases.

25/32 teams need to vote on rule changes. That's in the Constitution and ByLaws.

BB was holding firm on what he felt was right, but also was wrong in flipping the bird to the Jets with Estrella on the sideline.

My point is, a tiff between the Jets, Goodell changing wording of the rules on the fly or wanting a portion of a rule emphasized by the guy that hired him (Woody Johnson), is not really to my liking an an NFL fan.

It should be have been transparent and voted on if teams wanted to alter the future video scouting protocols.

Goodell didn't like the fact his power was being challenged. End of story.

We now know how Goodell has used Article 46, because he testified to it in a federal court. Of course, he was caught lying on 3 different occasions in these courts as well.

lmao

 

[Hammer of Thor]

You need to source that.

What I remember is the report of Goodell didn't believe what BB was saying in terms of the Constitution and Bylaws trumping the gameday manual.

BB even did an interview on it with Armen Keteyian.

My point is, a tiff between the Jets, Goodell changing wording of the rules on the fly or wanting a portion of a rule emphasized by the guy that hired him (Woody Johnson), is not really to my liking an an NFL fan.

It should be have been transparent and voted on if teams wanted to alter the future video scouting protocols.

Goodell didn't like the fact his power was being challenged. End of story.

No source, just a fan theory based on exactly the facts as you laid them out in the subsequent quotes. With maybe a slight difference that Goodell thought that his slight changes are just part of his interpretation powers which he is allowed to have as NFL commissioner (interpreting any ambiguity); BB saying there was no ambiguity, you just plain changed things and don’t have that authority.