PatsPicker - 2020 Roster Prediction Tool

[Zuma]

No, he will be put on another team's 53. I would hate seeing him become a star on another team. I guess we'll wait until he is on the field before we judge him.

I think he will be on someone else’s 53. Whether he is successful or not is another subject. Zuber is probably another WR in the same boat.

 

[mgteich]

I’ve always been aware of your ST thoughts on players...we don’t agree. But in no way shape or form do I consider anyone on the 53 an afterthought. We need to be faster and more versatile at LB and SS...I think the draft addressed that some. And no matter how many times you say I think Onwenu is a DT...he is not until he is....which I very much hope he is a fantastic NT at some point...but that point is not today.

fair enough

With regard to Onwenu, my point is that as a guard, I wouldn't have him open the 53, although he could beat out someone in camp. I would have him on the PS.

I agree that making the team as a DT is unlikely. I HOPE that this would happen; we need a backup NT.

 

[mgteich]

I think he will be on someone else’s 53. Whether he is successful or not is another subject. Zuber is probably another WR in the same boat.

OK, I guess that the patriots still have better depth than other teams. It should be unusual for our UDFA's to make the 53 man squad of other teams. But, yes, I suppose there are teams that need inexpensive players at the bottom of their roster.

 

[Zuma]

OK, I guess that the patriots still have better depth than other teams. It should be unusual for our UDFA's to make the 53 man squad of other teams. But, yes, I suppose there are teams that need inexpensive players at the bottom of their roster.

It seems over the years we have had ok success signing WR UDFA’s (some would say more so then drafted WR’s). I recall several of WR UDFA’s on the PS signed off by other teams...usually slot guys.

Special Teams...you are correct Bill values ST only players more then most head coaches. However I think this year is to much of a luxury considering the cap situation. We shall see.

 

[mgteich]

I tend to agree, I saw the value in STs along time ago but with all the rule changes to kickoffs, i think you seriously have to question having 5-6 specialists on your team when all they really do is cover punts. A very important aspect of the game, but im not convinced we need as many specialists as we've traditionally had on the roster . Should be able to find rookies who can contribute at a position and contribute on special teams

I get it. I disagree, and I believe that Belichick has almost always kept more STO players that any here expect him to keep. I believe that you underestimate the importance of the several ST units.
There are lots and lots of reps.

For an exercise, you might check the stats for reps, and checkout how many reps some the STO's have, and then check the #5 WR, the #4 WR, the #9 OL, #4 RB, and the #5 CB.

 

[captain stone]

Many will substitute other top Ster's like Slater, Bethel, King or Bolden.

Where we differ is that I consider Special Teams a unit, just like offense and defense. Fo me, starting STers like Slater, Bethel, King and Bolden are locks, not afterthoughts depending on their contributions at other positions. Also, I do NOT think that there are lots of backups who are close to these players in production..

Why should Brandon the King (of STs penalties) be considered a Lock? We managed OK without him last season; why not give that roster spot to somebody younger, cheaper & with more potential to play an actual, real position for us as a backup/apprentice to a starter?

 

[Zuma]

Why should Brandon the King (of STs penalties) be considered a Lock? We managed OK without him last season; why not give that roster spot to somebody younger, cheaper & with more potential to play an actual, real position for us as a backup/apprentice to a starter?

One thing I can’t freakin stand is when a young player starts to excel at ST and gets stuck there. “Well he is doing a great job there...so he won’t play anywhere else”. It goes both ways. You can’t shun a ST only player if someone here thinks they deserve a shot on defense or offense but then say you dislike ST only players. Yeah I don’t want Slater running go routes...but give the other guys a chance to fail or succeed elsewhere on the team.

 

[mgteich]

Why should Brandon the King (of STs penalties) be considered a Lock? We managed OK without him last season; why not give that roster spot to somebody younger, cheaper & with more potential to play an actual, real position for us as a backup/apprentice to a starter?

So, a backup played well, so cut the starter, especially if he over 30.

This kind approach is NOT the approach of Belichick, even though you have argued for it for years.

I look forward to veteran starters coming back.
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And yes, you belong to a club that's been around for a long time. Special team players aren't real football players, and they don't play real positions. Thankfully, Belichick isn't a member.

 

[mgteich]

One thing I can’t freakin stand is when a young player starts to excel at ST and gets stuck there. “Well he is doing a great job there...so he won’t play anywhere else”. It goes both ways. You can’t shun a ST only player if someone here thinks they deserve a shot on defense or offense but then say you dislike ST only players. Yeah I don’t want Slater running go routes...but give the other guys a chance to fail or succeed elsewhere on the team.

I am fine with a STO player competing to play a position. Bolden tries each year to qualify to be one of those in the RB rotation. #4 safeties (primarily STO's) have tried their hand at actually playing safety. These efforts are part of every training camp.

Occasionally, we look too closely at these competitions. We cut a top STer because he didn't win the spot he tried for on the defense or offense. Bolden says hi.
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BTW, why is what a player "thinks he deserves" relevant to anything?
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SOME THOUGHTS
1) Belichick focuses on position flexibility, probably more than any other coach.
2) Special teams have starters and backups. These are indeed positions. Yes, there are STO players, as there are WR only players, and OL only players and S only players.
3) Belichick values the ability of position players to play on the special teams units. Belichick uses them a lot, and we often wince when he does. This includes top starters like McCourty and Edelman.
4) EVEN THOUGH belch acquires position players with an eye to their ST play, Belichick still keeps 8-10 players who will have very few if any position reps.

My list for 2020 includes Rohrwasser, Bailey, Cardona, Slater, Bethel, King, Davis, and Bolden.
If there are no injuries at particular positions, some defensive backups will also play almost only special teams. Of course, they may play at positions if there are injuries.

 

[Zuma]

BTW, why is what a player "thinks he deserves" relevant to anything?

Lots of good stuff you touched on MG but I just want to say this at the moment...shouldn’t all NFL players think they are better then ST only guys? Or maybe the 6th round QB sitting on the bench thinking he is better then this. They ALL better think they are better then bench warmers or ST only players. Maybe they want more then $1 mil ( if that) a year for there whole careers...but Bill who covets ST only players has them pigeon holed there.

So you’re right...it doesn’t matter what the player thinks...he has to prove it on the field in practice and games that he also belongs on offense or defense...which IMO is a little harder to do with the Patriots.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

1. I'm one of those that believes that ST only players should be few and far between. I don't have a problem with Slater or King and maybe one other but I prefer those positions be replaced by rookies or younger players that also have roles on defense or offense (Slater if a HOF player on ST IMO...so I am not diminishing his contributions.) SO that's one of the reasons for no Bolden.

Just to be clear, if you want to make a "Here's the 53 I'd field," that's fine.

If you're trying to predict what's going to happen, well Belichick strongly disagrees with you. [Remember that when Michael Lombardi wrote an article on "How to dethrone the Patriots dynasty," his number 1 point was Make an organizational commitment to special teams.]

 

[captain stone]

So, a backup played well, so cut the starter, especially if he over 30.

This kind approach is NOT the approach of Belichick, even though you have argued for it for years...

Which starters have I advocated cutting?

What I have advocated is cutting STOs (e.g.: King, Terry Brooks) in favor of any younger, cheaper talent that has shown potential at their listed positions where backups/apprentices are needed; and coaching them in STs while they wait for their opportunity for scrimmage snaps...

 

[Zuma]

If you're trying to predict what's going to happen, well Belichick strongly disagrees with you. [Remember that when Michael Lombardi wrote an article on "How to dethrone the Patriots dynasty," his number 1 point was Make an organizational commitment to special teams.]

I haven’t spoken with him recently...but you are correct Sir.

 

[mgteich]

Which starters have I advocated cutting?

What I have advocated is cutting STOs (e.g.: King, Terry Brooks) in favor of any younger, cheaper talent that has shown potential at their listed positions where backups/apprentices are needed; and coaching them in STs while they wait for their opportunity for scrimmage snaps...

You cut no starters on offense or defense. You don't recognize the value of starters on special teams like King.

I'm fine with Duggar replacing Brooks and the roster, and Phillips replacing Harmon. I expect that Phillips will be playing lots of ST's as Brooks did, but he would be considered starter quality.
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BOTTOM LINE
We really are only different by a few (3 or 4) roster spots, so I suspect that I am overstating my objections to your roster. After all we both include Bolden, Slater, Bethel, and Davis.

We differ on a couple of our backup linebackers.

 

[IllegalContact]

QB (2) J.Stidham, B.Hoyer
RB (5) J.White, D.Harris, R.Burkhead, D.Vitale, S.Michel
WR (6) J.Edelman, M.Sanu, N.Harry, M.Slater, M.Lee, J.Meyers
TE (3) D.Asiasi, D.Keene, M.LaCosse
C (2) D.Andrews, J.Ferentz
G (4) S.Mason, H.Froholdt, J.Thuney, M.Onwenu
T (3) I.Wynn, M.Cannon, Y.Cajuste
DE (2) D.Wise, S.Calhoun
DT (5) L.Guy, A.Butler, B.Allen, C.Wallace, B.Cowart
ILB(3) D.Hightower, J.Bentley, C.Maluia
OLB(5) C.Winovich, A.Jennings, J.Simon, B.Copeland, J.Uche
CB (5) S.Gilmore, J.McCourty, J.Jackson, J.Williams, J.Jones
SS (2) P.Chung, K.Dugger
FS (3) D.McCourty, A.Phillips, T.Brooks
ST (3) J.Rohrwasser, J.Bailey, J.Cardona

but don't be surprised if edelman and thuney are not on the week 1 roster

 

[captain stone]

...You don't recognize the value of starters on special teams like King...

You are correct, I don't...because the "value" of "starters" like the King of STs Penalties is ridiculously over-rated here...we did fine without him last year, and I suspect we'll do fine without him in the future...

 

[Zuma]

QB (3) C.Newton, J.Stidham, B.Hoyer
RB (5) D.Harris, J.White, R.Burkhead, L.Miller, J.Johnson
WR (7) J.Edelman, M.Sanu, N.Harry, J.Meyers, D.Byrd, W.Hastings, M.Slater
TE (3) D.Asiasi, D.Keene, R.Izzo
C (2) D.Andrews, T.Gauthier
G (4) S.Mason, J.Thuney, H.Froholdt, M.Onwenu
T (3) I.Wynn, Y.Cajuste, K.Cunningham
DE (4) D.Wise, J.Simon, S.Calhoun, N.Thurman
DT (4) L.Guy, A.Butler, B.Allen, B.Cowart
ILB(2) J.Bentley, C.Maluia
OLB(4) C.Winovich, J.Uche, A.Jennings, B.Copeland
CB (5) S.Gilmore, J.Jackson, J.Jones, J.Williams, M.Jackson
SS (2) A.Phillips, K.Dugger
FS (2) D.McCourty, J.McCourty
ST (3) J.Rohrwasser, J.Bailey, J.Cardona

Total players: 53
Created with Pats Picker: Pats Picker 2020

 

[captain stone]

QB (3) C.Newton, J.Stidham, B.Hoyer
RB (5) D.Harris, J.White, R.Burkhead, L.Miller, J.Johnson
WR (7) J.Edelman, M.Sanu, N.Harry, J.Meyers, D.Byrd, W.Hastings, M.Slater
TE (3) D.Asiasi, D.Keene, R.Izzo
C (2) D.Andrews, T.Gauthier
G (4) S.Mason, J.Thuney, H.Froholdt, M.Onwenu
T (3) I.Wynn, Y.Cajuste, K.Cunningham
DE (4) D.Wise, J.Simon, S.Calhoun, N.Thurman
DT (4) L.Guy, A.Butler, B.Allen, B.Cowart
ILB(2) J.Bentley, C.Maluia
OLB(4) C.Winovich, J.Uche, A.Jennings, B.Copeland
CB (5) S.Gilmore, J.Jackson, J.Jones, J.Williams, M.Jackson
SS (2) A.Phillips, K.Dugger
FS (2) D.McCourty, J.McCourty
ST (3) J.Rohrwasser, J.Bailey, J.Cardona

Total players: 53
Created with Pats Picker: Pats Picker 2020

Hastings ahead of Gunner or Jeff Thomas? Interesting, though I liked his chances better when Stid was still the presumptive starter...

I can see one of Gauthier or OneMenu making the 53, but not both, especially if Frodo is ready to become the new backup Center...and Bill must have some secret plan for ElManure too; otherwise why has he gone to such great lengths to acquire and keep him?

Is the best we can do for DE#4 really just Nick Thurman? There's gotta be somebody else out there...

 

[Scotty]

A good selection for the final 53 from Zuma along with Capn 's comments. I hope that we will pick up 1 or 2 players once the cuts start. Maybe it is a stretch to think we can make it to the superbowl but I am hopeful we will win the division and get to the playoffs

 

[Zuma]

Hastings ahead of Gunner or Jeff Thomas? Interesting, though I liked his chances better when Stid was still the presumptive starter...

I can see one of Gauthier or OneMenu making the 53, but not both, especially if Frodo is ready to become the new backup Center...and Bill must have some secret plan for ElManure too; otherwise why has he gone to such great lengths to acquire and keep him?

Is the best we can do for DE#4 really just Nick Thurman? There's gotta be somebody else out there...

I agree Gunner has experience in the system and Thomas is probably a much more dynamic player...I was thinking about the chemistry Hastings and Stidham have had in the past..which may not be much of a factor this year...but I think it would in 2021 and beyond.

I think Frodo, OneMenu and Gauthier can play G/C and Elmanuer is a G/T...but not a good T at that otherwise he would have replaced Wynn or Cannon last season. I don’t see him sticking because he is basically just a G and theirs a logjam there with younger, cheaper more talented players.

I think OLB and DT’s will play DE depending on scheme...they are just not in depth at DE.