Patriots' Kaczur arrested for illegal possession of painkillers

[kolbitr]

There is informed and uninformed speculation. There is also that which is actually inflammatory. Saying that this affair which we really know nothing about could be "worse than Spygate" seems to me to be jumping to a presumptive, pessimistic, and unnecessary conclusion. Maybe I am just a fanboy here.

You are absolutely right, that there are many possibilities. But I think that if any of us broaches a subject that painful we should do more than just throw out the possibility, but rather provide some speculative surmises as well.

We know that Kaczur was caught with a small amount of the drug in his car. According to NY state law, the criminal possession he was charged with is the lowest possible, and rules out any intent to distribute.

He then seems to have told the police that he was buying in bulk, since last fall, 100 pills every few days, or thereabouts. This claim has been denied by the alleged dealer's attorney. We also know that Kaczur then helped set up several purchases, apparently similar to ones he had made before.

The dealer's attorney suggested that Kaczur was lying about at least part of his claims. We also know that this size of purchase is not unheard of for someone who is a serious addict (à la Limbaugh), and that if he was using it as a real euphoric he could have been using it himself or perhaps sharing with a few others.

My earlier post said that if this is the case, then these people with whom he shares could have been anybody he knew--friends from Canada, bad dudes in upper-state NY, his bar pick-ups. Or, they could have been one or two guys from the team, it's true.

As people have pointed out, though, using this drug in large amounts during practice and games would seriously hinder some part of your performance. It is more than just a painkiller in large doses--it is like heroin. It is not conducive to playing sports. Smaller amounts, used just as a painkiller, would be different.

Maybe I am just being sensitive, and don't want to think that the Patriots are now also a team of addicts. I would suggest though that use of various drugs of every kind is widespread in the NFL, and that a case such as Kaczur's while irritating and depressing as a fan, is also pretty sad.

 

[kolbitr]

All this assumes that Kaczur was using them for the euphoric effect. I think that's baseless speculation.

Given the fact that these guys are in a profession where they are constantly in a state of pain and injury, taking a pill orally - i.e. not snorting, not chewing - to gain the 12 hour pain killing effect without the addictive euphoria, is just as likely, if not more likely in my mind.

I don't think that is baseless speculation. I think it is a real possibility. Moreover, I think that it is what Kaczur told the police. I am not in law enforcement, but if Kaczur had said anything about handing them off to teammates, and I am pretty sure he would have been questioned pretty hard on this point before they cut him any sort of deal, we would have learned about the police questioning other Patriots players. It seems as if the Globe hounds got an awful lot of information on this case--surely that would have been something they would have looked for. It also seems unlikely that Kaczur would be practicing with his teammates if there was any hint that he had dropped names.

Now he could have lied, of course. The good news is if there was sharing of the type you mention in the locker room (which is a reasonable speculation, I admit), either the dealer or his lawyer or the cops will expose that before too long. So we will learn about it in the papers.

 

[Fixit]

If your mom got addicted to a prescription drug, would you say "Now mom, don't give me that crap about being a victim" or would you do all you could to help her?

There's no question that I'd do both. None.

 

[JoeSixPat]

I don't think that is baseless speculation. I think it is a real possibility. Moreover, I think that it is what Kaczur told the police. I am not in law enforcement, but if Kaczur had said anything about handing them off to teammates, and I am pretty sure he would have been questioned pretty hard on this point before they cut him any sort of deal, we would have learned about the police questioning other Patriots players. It seems as if the Globe hounds got an awful lot of information on this case--surely that would have been something they would have looked for. It also seems unlikely that Kaczur would be practicing with his teammates if there was any hint that he had dropped names.

Now he could have lied, of course. The good news is if there was sharing of the type you mention in the locker room (which is a reasonable speculation, I admit), either the dealer or his lawyer or the cops will expose that before too long. So we will learn about it in the papers.

I gues my point is that everything's baseless speculation if you want to get right down to it - why is a suggestion that Kaczur was interested in the pills for the actual pain killing effect baseless but the notion that he was interested in the euphoric effect not baseless?

Both are possibilities. But some want to rule out possibilities, calling them baseless already.

Why is the suggestion that Kaczur might have shared the several hundred pills he was buying per week baseless but the suggestion that he was consuming such an outrageously large quantity, not considered baseless?

Both are possibilities. As is the possibility that other teammates might have been beneficiaries of his purchases. There is no basis on which to rule out that possibility, yet apparently that's what everyone's doing.

My opinion is that there's a higher likelihood that a professional football player would be looking to benefit from a pain free 12 hours on game day than he would be looking to get high on gameday by chewing or snorting it.

The Globe information as you know is from the federal indictment and information made available to the defense through discovery... even that doesn't make it a fact necessarily - the defense will try to undercut the veracity of that evidence - in this case, they'll say that Kaczur's testimony can't be trusted as he was just trying to protect himself. By the same token I have a strong doubt that Kaczur would turn over on his teammates even if asked... but the prosecuters, as I'm sure you understand, aren't intested in who is lower in the heiarchy - they're interested in who Kaczur's suplier is.

 

[JoeSixPat]

There is informed and uninformed speculation. There is also that which is actually inflammatory. Saying that this affair which we really know nothing about could be "worse than Spygate" seems to me to be jumping to a presumptive, pessimistic, and unnecessary conclusion. Maybe I am just a fanboy here.

Yes - I'd say this thread isn't the place for you if you think speculating on all possibilities and outcomes is something that should not be done.

My approach to these things is to prepare for the worst - and if they are not as bad, great.

There seem to be some here who are already writing this episode off as just another witch hunt against the Patriots. It's a very serious situation and I'm looking at it exactly that way - and I know I'm not the only person who questions whether its physically possible for Kaczur to consume hundreds of pills per week.

If he were getting just one dozen a week then I'd say the suggestion that he might be sharing was baseless.

The statement that he was getting tens of dozens per week changes that.

 

[Deus Irae]

Yes - I'd say this thread isn't the place for you if you think speculating on all possibilities and outcomes is something that should not be done.

My approach to these things is to prepare for the worst - and if they are not as bad, great.

There seem to be some here who are already writing this episode off as just another witch hunt against the Patriots. It's a very serious situation and I'm looking at it exactly that way - and I know I'm not the only person who questions whether its physically possible for Kaczur to consume hundreds of pills per week.

If he were getting just one dozen a week then I'd say the suggestion that he might be sharing was baseless.

The statement that he was getting tens of dozens per week changes that.

http://www.personalmd.com/news/n0827101118.shtml

Hospice of Palm Beach County has more than 500 terminally ill people in its care, and OxyContin accounts for 15 percent of their prescriptions. Some of those patients need staggering amounts to ease their suffering _ as many as 30 of the 80 mg pills per day.

http://www.opiates.com/media/heroin-belleville.html

Cooper said what he's found with OxyContin plaintiffs is they start off by taking one OxyContin pill, "then they take two a day, and then all of a sudden they need three and four and five a day. It's just amazing."

The average addict, Cooper said, is a person between the ages of 35 and 40 who gets hurt at work or playing a softball game and is prescribed OxyContin.

http://www.oxyabusekills.ca/guestbook.php?page=16

UST A REMINDER, I WAS DOING 6 PILLS A DAY AND EACH PILL WAS 80MG, I WOULD DO 2 PILLS AT ONE TIME, WHICH WOULD BE 160MG, AT ONCE. 3 TIMES A DAY, MORNING NOON AND NIGHT.

I hope this information, and these quotes, help a bit....

 

[kolbitr]

I hope this information, and these quotes, help a bit....

DI, thanks for posting these links. This is the kind of thing that I have been suggesting, that his taking so many of the pills is not either impossible nor unusual.

I do not think that JoeSixPat's suggestions are baseless--in fact, I would rather people stop throwing the term around. However, I am not convinced that the possibility that Kaczur had become a hooked addict is the less likely possibility.

JSP is correct when he suggests that the desire to numb a pain-ridden body, beat up by football, is certainly a common one in any NFL locker room. However, given the info we have (sketchy as it is), and given what we know about the similarity between NK's behavior and other abusers, I still lean toward thinking that he was abusing it along the lines of a euphoric substance, rather than merely a potent pain aid.

Finally, I am not at all convinced that NK would not roll over on his teammates if he was desperate enough, nor that any prosecutor would pass up the chance to pursue professional athletes over a small-time dealer.

 

[JoeSixPat]

DI, thanks for posting these links. This is the kind of thing that I have been suggesting, that his taking so many of the pills is not either impossible nor unusual.

I do not think that JoeSixPat's suggestions are baseless--in fact, I would rather people stop throwing the term around. However, I am not convinced that the possibility that Kaczur had become a hooked addict is the less likely possibility.

JSP is correct when he suggests that the desire to numb a pain-ridden body, beat up by football, is certainly a common one in any NFL locker room. However, given the info we have (sketchy as it is), and given what we know about the similarity between NK's behavior and other abusers, I still lean toward thinking that he was abusing it along the lines of a euphoric substance, rather than merely a potent pain aid.

Finally, I am not at all convinced that NK would not roll over on his teammates if he was desperate enough, nor that any prosecutor would pass up the chance to pursue professional athletes over a small-time dealer.

Exactly - Deus does a great job showing how terminally ill patients in the most intense of pain do in fact take some very high doses, and how even an intense addict dose 42 pills a week is far short of the hundred pills every few days that Kaczur reportedly bought. Of course this all comes down to the dosage - which to my knowledge has not been divulged yet.

Sadly, I had no need of Deus' links as I'm all too familiar with this drug and how it helps the suffering of such patients, and in fact was prescribed it myself for a knee injury. My prescription was pretty low in comparison to cancer patients but it certainly did the job it was supposed to do in taking away my knee pain.

I don't think anyone is expecting Kaczur to assert he was a terminally ill cancer patient or in anywhere near that type of pain. But there's no question even a low dose would help a professional football player who is feeling a good degree of pain completely mask that pain on game day (or any other day).

So let's not rule out anything as baseless.

There's many possibilities here - two of which are A.) Kaczur was in fact a major addcit, snorting or chewing the pills and apparently walking around exceptionally high and euphoric all last season unbeknownst to anyone and B.) Kaczur was swallowing the pills whole to gain the extended time release pain killing benefit the drug was designed to provide, in order to make it through a season in which he was trying to mask a significant degree of pain.

There's also two possibilities when it comes to the sole or collective use of the drugs he was buying: A.) He was ingesting the hundreds of pills purchased every few days all himself - with no friends, and no teammates ever being invovled or, B.) Others in Kaczur's circle were buying from him or were chipping in.

I highly doubt that this possibility didn't dawn on the Patriots front office, even if it didn't occur to anyone here - and I supect they looked into that pretty deeply themselves, so I tend to agree that the fact that Kaczur is still practicing with the team suggests that would not be the case - but the bottom line is, none of us know enough about this situation to be calling any of those obvious possibilities baseless.

Of course, I don't expect that Kaczur would quickly roll over on his teammates if they were involved either, so one needs to keep that in mind.

But for those of you greatly disturbed by knowing the possibilities here - just make believe you never read my post and enjoy your bliss!

 

[Deus Irae]

But for those of you greatly disturbed by knowing the possibilities here - just make believe you never read my post and enjoy your bliss!

2.) "every few days" is not a known number, which makes your 'speculation' useless and baseless.

2.) The article doesn't mention the dosage being purchased, meaning that one could be taking 4 20's vs. 1 80. Just based upon a 5-6 80 mg day, one would be popping 20-24 20mg pills per day. If I've missed further information on this, my apologies.

Without actual information, speculation of this sort is the equivalent of just making things up.

 

[IcyPatriot]

2.)

Without actual information, speculation of this sort is the equivalent of just making things up.

yet your post was #329 on a thread based on speculation ... go figure.

 

[kolbitr]

But for those of you greatly disturbed by knowing the possibilities here - just make believe you never read my post and enjoy your bliss!

You're right--the rest of us are simply ignorant and wishing on rainbows. I am not really convinced that you read my posts on this subject, since you persist in thinking that your opinions are being laughed off as baseless, when in fact they were being taken seriously and simply being disagreed with.

 

[Disco Volante]

The topic title was so unattractive, I haven't clicked it until now.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Do you really think the concept that Kaczur himslef wasn't personally ingesting 100 oxycontin pills every few days has escaped the notice of the media? And that a lightbulb is going to go off reading it on Patsfans? I don't think I deserve that much credit.

Besides, this is a discussion board. We're not the media - and if people aren't comfortable openly discussing an issue, they shouldn't.

I'm no expert on the subject but I do know that trainers and team physicians do prescribe medicines and give pain killing shots and coritzone to players legally. Taking hundreds of Oxycontin pills is different as I'm sure you can understand.

No one's jumping to any conclusions here - and of course I don't know what the truth is, but there's a very real possibility other players are involved who were seeking pain killers for issues that a physician would not prescribe them for. Exactly what good does it do fans to delude themselves that there's no possibility of that?

If you're not comfortable considering all the possibilities of this situation I suggest you stay away from this thread.

This just reminded me of the time Bill Belichick got outed as being seperated/ divorced and a purportedly shacking up with some network sideline reporter (which turned out to be false) by ESPN on the night he was in LA receiving an ESPY with his kids in tow - based on a thread started here... :violent:

People here scream bloody murder when the media wildly speculates with no basis. Some even start crusades and websites dedicated to straightening them out on the facts...

The media always says they are just giving us what we want. Thanks for proving they are right, Joe. :eat1:

:bricks:

 

[MoLewisrocks]

http://www.personalmd.com/news/n0827101118.shtml



http://www.opiates.com/media/heroin-belleville.html



http://www.oxyabusekills.ca/guestbook.php?page=16



I hope this information, and these quotes, help a bit....

Joe is too invested in his position to be helped now, but thanks for trying...

 

[Deus Irae]

yet your post was #329 on a thread based on speculation ... go figure.

And I gave information, not speculation, and stated that speculation was useless. Thanks for your comment though. Becoming #330 was, doubtless, a fair reward for such helpful posting.

 

[JoeSixPat]

This just reminded me of the time Bill Belichick got outed as being seperated/ divorced and a purportedly shacking up with some network sideline reporter (which turned out to be false) by ESPN on the night he was in LA receiving an ESPY with his kids in tow - based on a thread started here...

People here scream bloody murder when the media wildly speculates with no basis. Some even start crusades and websites dedicated to straightening them out on the facts...

The media always says they are just giving us what we want. Thanks for proving they are right, Joe. :eat1:

:bricks:

OK Mo - thanks for clearing that up.

So who is your source who proved any of the possibilties I raised as false?

You apparently know the dosage of the pills and can confirm that Kaczur was the only one ingesting them?

You've ruled that out so anyone who points out that we actually don't have all the facts deserves a :bricks: ?

 

[JoeSixPat]

2.) "every few days" is not a known number, which makes your 'speculation' useless and baseless.

2.) The article doesn't mention the dosage being purchased, meaning that one could be taking 4 20's vs. 1 80. Just based upon a 5-6 80 mg day, one would be popping 20-24 20mg pills per day. If I've missed further information on this, my apologies.

Without actual information, speculation of this sort is the equivalent of just making things up.

And as you know I stated that no one knows the dosage - ergo, how can you state that taking 100 pills is low, or high?

I'm making the apparently controversial statment that 100 pills every few days could well be EXTRAORDINARILLY high for one person to ingest - we just don't know yet. Yet for some reason you are just unable to accept that.

Why exactly is it Deus, that whenever I point out that there might be an alternative possibility or opinion to yours, you get your nuts bunched up in a knot and attempt to prove that there are NOT multiple possibilties or opinions?

 

[JoeSixPat]

And I gave information, not speculation, and stated that speculation was useless. Thanks for your comment though. Becoming #330 was, doubtless, a fair reward for such helpful posting.

Deus - what was the dosage of the pills Kaczur was buying?

And based on that, if he was taking 100 pills evey few days, how many milligrams was he ingesting?

And if your answer is "I don't know" your incredible skills of logic have just proven my point correct.

You are "speculating" that Kaczur was buying only for himself when the possibility remains that he was buying for others as well.

 

[Deus Irae]

And as you know I stated that no one knows the dosage - ergo, how can you state that taking 100 pills is low, or high?

I'm making the apparently controversial statment that 100 pills every few days could well be EXTRAORDINARILLY high for one person to ingest - we just don't know yet. Yet for some reason you are just unable to accept that.

Why exactly is it Deus, that whenever I point out that there might be an alternative possibility or opinion to yours, you get your nuts bunched up in a knot and attempt to prove that there are NOT multiple possibilties or opinions?

The post you made which I responded to said nothing of dosages. It did, however, say:

It's a very serious situation and I'm looking at it exactly that way - and I know I'm not the only person who questions whether its physically possible for Kaczur to consume hundreds of pills per week.

If he were getting just one dozen a week then I'd say the suggestion that he might be sharing was baseless.

The statement that he was getting tens of dozens per week changes that.

I pointed out ways in which it would be possible to "consume hundreds of pills per week", and I noted that "every few days" was not actually a specific number to base your speculations on. I posted about speculations you made that had no pertinent information behind them.

What I did not do was "attempt to prove that there are NOT multiple possibilties or opinions". Now, would you care to toss out any more red herrings?

 

[Deus Irae]

Deus - what was the dosage of the pills Kaczur was buying?

And based on that, if he was taking 100 pills evey few days, how many milligrams was he ingesting?

And if your answer is "I don't know" your incredible skills of logic have just proven my point correct.

You are "speculating" that Kaczur was buying only for himself when the possibility remains that he was buying for others as well.

I haven't speculated anything as to why Nick was buying.