Patriots acquire Marquis Flowers from Cincinnati for a 7th Round Pick

[maineman209]

Missing from practice today:

Ebner, McLellin, Garcia, Langi and Kuntz.

Apparently, the roster change is Flowers for Kuntz.

Again, don't overthink it.

 

[mgteich]

Flowers is in the last year of his contract.

I expect that he is competing with Grissom and Freeny for ST spots. Last year's defensive front seven top STer as far as reps were Mingo, Grissom and Mcclellan.

 

[SlowGettingUp]

Excuse me, but I only turn on the game so I can see and hear the expert analysis from the two guys in the Bob's Discount Furniture studios.

I wonder if "Bob" realizes that we all have to be restrained from throwing things at the TV when these two guys appear?

 

[Biffins]

Once this JAG is cut from the roster next week, people will say it's just a late 7th rd pick who cares.

 

[Wheelman]

OT:

Hilarious little tidbit at the end of the Marquis Flowers section lol...

"Keep that **** in bounds bro" - every Jaguars WR the past decade pic.twitter.com/JykcgMfdTe

— Barstool Sports (@barstoolsports) August 15, 2017

Bortles was named the starter too...

 

[maineman209]

Bortles was named the starter too...

An equipment manager and two local reporters suffered minor injuries from flying footballs in separate incidents at Ravens practice this morning.

In other Ravens news, QB Joe Flacco began throwing today for the first time this Camp.

 

[maineman209]

I wonder if "Bob" realizes that we all have to be restrained from throwing things at the TV when these two guys appear?

"Bob" is only a cartoon, isn't he?

 

[WaterfallJumper]

Once this JAG is cut from the roster next week, people will say it's just a late 7th rd pick who cares.

What's the difference between a late 7th and an UDFA? I mean, really? We lost quite a few special team snaps from last year. Flowers is a good bet to fill that void.

 

[patfanken]

I disagree and think all this tells us is he needs a special teams player. One flowers will play almost all of the d snaps the other will play few if any.

His position designation is irrelevant to signaling a change.

I think the Flowers trade is just indicative of a plan to look at a bunch of players that fit a physical model (fast, athletic, and versatile) and see who are football players who can develop in this system. (BTW- has anyone confirmed whether the Bengals get the pick if Flowers doesn't make the team? )

Flowers has crazy physical stats that have yet translated into a player who can get regular defensive snaps, but the physical gifts are worth the risk of the pick, given his proven ST's skills. Remember Ninko had zero proven defensive skills or stats when he came here. BB has always believed if you throw enough shots at the mark you will eventually hit that mark. Mingo, MFlowers, Grissom, Rivers, are all just shots at the mark. Hopefully one or more will hit the mark. If not they'll just move on to the next group of opportunities

Essentially what we have done is move HT to replace nink/sheard who basically shared the spot, added Harris to take HT old role, will increase flowers snaps and added Guy and wise to take longs.
We will run the same d.
When nink was out there we called it 425 nickel. With HT in that spot we will call it 335 nickel but it's the same thing.

This is a fair, if not simplistic, assessment. The 4-2-5 alignment has been our base defense in recent years. Using what you call the 335 with the 3rd LB replacing the DE in the rush would seem to be a natural progression, given the players we currently have on the roster.

But remember that BB at his core has been a 3-4 guy for most of his long NFL career. We went to a 4-3 mostly because we no longer had the talent on the roster to successfully play with a 3 man front. Now it seems we are slowly accumulating it, at least on the DL. Guy and Brown are almost prototype DE's, while guys like Butler and Wise could develop into that role.

Your assessment seems to leave out Trey Flowers

Yeah it did. While it seems Flowers would be a perfect fit, physically, as a 4-3 DE, I'm not quite sure what to make of him. It seemed he did a lot of his damage when they put him inside last season. He was decent in setting the edge as I recall, but I wonder if they want him out on the edge consistenly against the run and OT's vs the pass.

In the end, this will be just ANOTHER season where the Pats will have little or no big name pass rushers, and will have to scheme their pressures rather than rely on a player's one on one skills. I'm not worried about it right now because over the years they've done very well at it.

At any rate it will be interesting to see, as the year plays out, IF we see a resurgence of the 3 man front.

 

[maineman209]

What's the difference between a late 7th and an UDFA? I mean, really? We lost quite a few special team snaps from last year. Flowers is a good bet to fill that void.

I've long considered a 7th round pick as something the team uses on a prospect who might not get drafted but who they don't want to compete in the post-draft scrum for. Probably applies to most 6th round picks, too.

 

[Ring 6]

I think the Flowers trade is just indicative of a plan to look at a bunch of players that fit a physical model (fast, athletic, and versatile) and see who are football players who can develop in this system. (BTW- has anyone confirmed whether the Bengals get the pick if Flowers doesn't make the team? )

Flowers has crazy physical stats that have yet translated into a player who can get regular defensive snaps, but the physical gifts are worth the risk of the pick, given his proven ST's skills. Remember Ninko had zero proven defensive skills or stats when he came here. BB has always believed if you throw enough shots at the mark you will eventually hit that mark. Mingo, MFlowers, Grissom, Rivers, are all just shots at the mark. Hopefully one or more will hit the mark. If not they'll just move on to the next group of opportunities

This is a fair, if not simplistic, assessment. The 4-2-5 alignment has been our base defense in recent years. Using what you call the 335 with the 3rd LB replacing the DE in the rush would seem to be a natural progression, given the players we currently have on the roster.

But remember that BB at his core has been a 3-4 guy for most of his long NFL career. We went to a 4-3 mostly because we no longer had the talent on the roster to successfully play with a 3 man front. Now it seems we are slowly accumulating it, at least on the DL. Guy and Brown are almost prototype DE's, while guys like Butler and Wise could develop into that role.

Yeah it did. While it seems Flowers would be a perfect fit, physically, as a 4-3 DE, I'm not quite sure what to make of him. It seemed he did a lot of his damage when they put him inside last season. He was decent in setting the edge as I recall, but I wonder if they want him out on the edge consistenly against the run and OT's vs the pass.

In the end, this will be just ANOTHER season where the Pats will have little or no big name pass rushers, and will have to scheme their pressures rather than rely on a player's one on one skills. I'm not worried about it right now because over the years they've done very well at it.

At any rate it will be interesting to see, as the year plays out, IF we see a resurgence of the 3 man front.

1) my point is marquis flowers role will be special teams and is not a move that signals any change in philosophy. Sure he could end up earning d snaps eventually but by definition pretty much every NFL is a physically gifted freak.

2) the change from 34 (the way we played it with 3 300lb+ guys) to a nickel base with only 2 is more about change in offenses than availability of players. The days of BB playing 3 300lbers together as more than a specialized personnel grouping are over.

3) you are definitely selling flowers short.

 

[Danger Zone]

Once this JAG is cut from the roster next week, people will say it's just a late 7th rd pick who cares.

Yup.

You know why? Because I'm on the wise but still aware of the sheer magnitude of my own ignorance side of the Dunning-Kruger scale of things.

Belichick has my full blessing to do bottom of the roster sifting.

Take the Efficient Markets hypothesis, which I don't think translates fully to football, but in the areas that it does, these kind of bottom of the roster/late-round picks are where the hidden gems are going to be found.

Nothing in football is 100%.

Hell even a late first round pick only has a 70% chance to even be in the NFL after a few years. By the end of the 2nd round this chance drops to nearly 50%.

 

[Love The Drake]

One word Burkhead once he got reps he looked like a problem.
I'm sure BB was like let's check out what other players are not being used or haven't been given a chance.

I like the risk and if it knocks Freeny off the roster I'm sorry but he's the weakest link anytime he is on that field he doesn't have the quickness he once had and he may be smart but if he's there 2 seconds late who cares.

 

[mcmurtry86]

Disingenuous to say Belichick at his core is a 3-4 guy. He ran it with the Giants because he had tremendous LB who fit the scheme perfectly.

He ran 4-3 with Cleveland, he ran a mix of 3-4 and 4-3 with the Jets and has had a base 4-3 with the Pats about half his time here (2001-2003 and 2011-2016)

He's been pretty consistent in rubbing the scheme that his players best fit rather than forcing players to the scheme. I don't think he sees much of an on-field advantage in running one or the other (some personnel advantage if you're running a scheme other teams aren't as there is more supply and less demand for the guys who are good system fits).

The 3-3-5 seems like a logical fit given the roster and the way the league has moved to more speed. The Pats don't have the LB for a great 3-4 or the DE for a great 4-3.

 

[SlowGettingUp]

the change from 34 (the way we played it with 3 300lb+ guys) to a nickel base with only 2 is more about change in offenses than availability of players. The days of BB playing 3 300lbers together as more than a specialized personnel grouping are over.

It's hard to know how much Belichick adapts the scheme to the personnel or the personnel to the scheme.

It is notable that there are no defensive players on the roster weighing between around 275lb and 300 lb. There are a lot in the 260-275 lb range - Flowers, Grissom, Hightower and Wise, and even more in the 250-260 lb range - Harris, McClellin, Rivers, Langi, Freeny, and Davis.

Marquis Flowers is smaller - somewhere around 245 lb apparently, and he used to be more like 230 lb.

 

[Hammer of Thor]

"Bob" is only a cartoon, isn't he?

More than you ever wanted to know about Bob....
A 'No Phony Gimmicks' Guy

 

[patfanken]

1) my point is marquis flowers role will be special teams and is not a move that signals any change in philosophy. Sure he could end up earning d snaps eventually but by definition pretty much every NFL is a physically gifted freak.

That's a great point that goes unnoticed too often. But that being said, 250lb guys who run 4.5's are still very limited on the planet.....and guys who are 250, run 4.5's AND can play good football, are rarer still. Now this kid has had 3 years to develop into an every down defensive football player and hasn't. So on the surface the chances he will here are not great. But neither was Ninko's, so there is always a chance.

2) the change from 34 (the way we played it with 3 300lb+ guys) to a nickel base with only 2 is more about change in offenses than availability of players. The days of BB playing 3 300lbers together as more than a specialized personnel grouping are over.

I'm not sure. Having 3 big guys up front pushing the pocket and eating up blockers, while having 3 or 4 really fast guys all coming at different, hard to read angles is pretty interesting IMO, especially when you don't have great individual pass rushers.

3) you are definitely selling flowers short.

Less about selling him short, and more about not having a clear understanding of exactly how the Pats are going to use him. I'm thinking he might be wasted as a pure 4-3 DE. I'm also not sure of his abilities as a one on one rushers against OT's

 

[captain stone]

That 7th-rounder better be conditional.

Because I have no reason why Bill would waste even a 7th-rounder on some JAG
who in 2 seasons (all of 2015 was spent on IR) contributed nothing at all to the Bungles' defense, and who almost assuredly would've been among their cuts to 53 next week.

 

[Ring 6]

Disingenuous to say Belichick at his core is a 3-4 guy. He ran it with the Giants because he had tremendous LB who fit the scheme perfectly.

He ran 4-3 with Cleveland, he ran a mix of 3-4 and 4-3 with the Jets and has had a base 4-3 with the Pats about half his time here (2001-2003 and 2011-2016)

He's been pretty consistent in rubbing the scheme that his players best fit rather than forcing players to the scheme. I don't think he sees much of an on-field advantage in running one or the other (some personnel advantage if you're running a scheme other teams aren't as there is more supply and less demand for the guys who are good system fits).

The 3-3-5 seems like a logical fit given the roster and the way the league has moved to more speed. The Pats don't have the LB for a great 3-4 or the DE for a great 4-3.

Since nickel is the base 34 or 43 is kinda pointless but what the hell. With this roster, if we played 34 I'd expect

LDE Brown, guy, wise
DT Branch, valentine
RDE Flowers, wise, butler
WOLB Hightower, langi
WOLB Van Noy, roberts
SILB Harris, roberts
SOLB. McClellin, wise (question where to put him but I see a Willie McGinest type role)

43
LDE Guy, wise
DT. Brown, valentine
DT. Branch, valentine
RDE Flowers, langi
WOLB Hightower
MLB Harris, roberts
SOLB Van Noy, mcclellin

 

[Ring 6]

That's a great point that goes unnoticed too often. But that being said, 250lb guys who run 4.5's are still very limited on the planet.....and guys who are 250, run 4.5's AND can play good football, are rarer still. Now this kid has had 3 years to develop into an every down defensive football player and hasn't. So on the surface the chances he will here are not great. But neither was Ninko's, so there is always a chance.

He wasn't 250 when he ran 4.5

I'm not sure. Having 3 big guys up front pushing the pocket and eating up blockers, while having 3 or 4 really fast guys all coming at different, hard to read angles is pretty interesting IMO, especially when you don't have great individual pass rushers.

We disagree.

Less about selling him short, and more about not having a clear understanding of exactly how the Pats are going to use him. I'm thinking he might be wasted as a pure 4-3 DE. I'm also not sure of his abilities as a one on one rushers against OT's

I see him playing 90+% of the snaps as a DE who moves inside in obvious passing downs like 3rd down and 2 minutes
Essentially exactly how they used chandler jones.