Pacman Jones suspended for season, Henry for 8 games

[dhamz]

Until the same type of punishment is handed down to the jailbird (Tank) on 1 of the leagues flagship teams who just played in the Super Bowl (Bears) it does look like a bit of a selective enformcent publicity stunt.

And since no one not related to Henry or Jones has any sympathy for them, it is a very effective publicity stunt.

 

[Michigan Dave]

Re: pacman jones suspended!!!

Wow I just read this again. So you have great respect for law enforcment but you find Jones just as trustworthy as the police. WOW. Take the blinders off man. I will tell you my friends would be welcome in my house any day of the week, you want to invite "pac" over to your house by all means go ahead. Maybe he can bounce a female friend of yours head off a table since it doesn't seem to be such a big deal to you and he isn't responsible for his actions it seems. Wow "pacman" is as trustworthy as the police...HAHAHAHAHAHAHA....

I choose to formulate opinions on my own, not based on public perception. I do not know the police officers investigating the case, and I do not know Jones personally. Therefore, I have assigned equal levels of trust to them. I've studied numerous cases where officers have acted unethically and dishonestly to make a case. While I am not accusing these officers of doing so, it happens. Look at what happened to the kids at the center of the Duke Lacrosse case.

Oh and my friends don't get into trouble like "pac" does....seems he can't always blame someone else for the crime....didn't his MOM take the fall for some marijuana of his a while back??? This is hilrious, maybe he should apply for the police department since he is as trustworthy as the police. Don't worry I will never by that bridge back...

A question for you: is someone who is accused of, let alone convicted of a crime, no matter how insignificant the crime may be, less 'trustworthy' in your mind? Can someone ever earn that trust back? Just a question.

I do not know Pacman Jones. I do not pretend to know the exact accounts of what went on in Las Vegas. But I will not presume guilt upon someone unless they are convicted, or enough facts are out there where I can make an educated decision on my own.

 

[Crazy Patriot Guy]

There's been a lot of talk of why Tank Johnson wasn't included in the suspensions. I haven't seen it posted but I just watched a clip of Chris Mortenson on NFL Live and that same question was asked. He says that Goodell thinks it's important to sit down with a player and be able to look him in the eyes. With Tank in jail right now, that obviously is not going to happen but once he gets out, he will be dealt with.

 

[pats-blue]

Re: pacman jones suspended!!!

I choose to formulate opinions on my own, not based on public perception. I do not know the police officers investigating the case, and I do not know Jones personally. Therefore, I have assigned equal levels of trust to them. I've studied numerous cases where officers have acted unethically and dishonestly to make a case. While I am not accusing these officers of doing so, it happens. Look at what happened to the kids at the center of the Duke Lacrosse case.

That was a lawyer not a cop, al of the stuff in the Duke cae can be traced back to the lawyer. Nice that since you don't actually know the people involved you assign equal trust regardless of the situation...lets see here guys that get paid regardless if the charge someone or not and will make 0$$ more and provide absolutely no benefit to thier lives 50%, someoen that would go to jail and lose millions and thier defense if charged will cost them at least a mill 50% truthful, yep sounds about right.

A question for you: is someone who is accused of, let alone convicted of a crime, no matter how insignificant the crime may be, less 'trustworthy' in your mind? Can someone ever earn that trust back? Just a question.

Well since we are not talking "insignificant" it is a moot point. Want me to list the incidenst he has been involved in the last three years? You never answerd my question. So you believe he doesn't know the shooter that was sitting next to him in the club holding his bag of money and got into the same car as him? Just a question.

I do not know Pacman Jones. I do not pretend to know the exact accounts of what went on in Las Vegas. But I will not presume guilt upon someone unless they are convicted, or enough facts are out there where I can make an educated decision on my own.

well I guess my friends aren't trustworthy and the interviews and video that they watched isn't enough but thanks I will believe them rather than third or fourth hand accounts of a version from "pac" the thug you can stay in your world it will serve you well in court.

I really would like an answer for my question though, do you thinkhe knows this guy or not simple question...

 

[Michigan Dave]

Re: pacman jones suspended!!!

That was a lawyer not a cop, al of the stuff in the Duke cae can be traced back to the lawyer. Nice that since you don't actually know the people involved you assign equal trust regardless of the situation...lets see here guys that get paid regardless if the charge someone or not and will make 0$$ more and provide absolutely no benefit to thier lives 50%, someoen that would go to jail and lose millions and thier defense if charged will cost them at least a mill 50% truthful, yep sounds about right.

Yes, the prosecutor is at the forefront of the media scrutiny right now. However the Durham Police Department is also accused of intimidating witnesses, and having unfairly targeted Duke students in the past. Again, police, lawyers, accused, witnesses, whatever. I assign equal trust. Also, your logic at the end of that paragraph is disturbing. If we just accepted what the police said, and took it at face value, we would not have an innocent until proven guilty system. We would have a police state that I sure as hell want no part of. Just because someone is accused of a crime doesn't mean they are being less than truthful.

Well since we are not talking "insignificant" it is a moot point. Want me to list the incidenst he has been involved in the last three years? You never answerd my question. So you believe he doesn't know the shooter that was sitting next to him in the club holding his bag of money and got into the same car as him? Just a question.

You brought up a bag of weed in your example. That is insignificant to me. I know people who have passed the buck off on a bag of weed when they were young. Professional people.

What I do believe is that I wasn't there, and that I can't answer that question. I do know that I've been out to a club with a group of people, some of whom I do not know. I also know that at some point in the night I sat next to them, and they did indeed come and go with me. In fact, I've even ridden in a limousine with people I did not know! Friends of friends. People tend to go out in large groups. So, right there, that is reasonable to me. Would I trust a stranger with a bag of money? No. But I also do not make millions of dollars and would not have a bag of money. I have a friend who was drafted and let a friend of mine drive his new Benz, which I probably wouldn't have done.

well I guess my friends aren't trustworthy and the interviews and video that they watched isn't enough but thanks I will believe them rather than third or fourth hand accounts of a version from "pac" the thug you can stay in your world it will serve you well in court.

I really would like an answer for my question though, do you thinkhe knows this guy or not simple question...

My world will serve me well in court. My world is one void of pre-judging people based on public perception and stereotype. Mine is a world where I'll rationalize both sides of a case, and make my argument based on the facts presented directly to me, and my interpretations. My world is one where everyone gets a fair shot.

 

[Ring 6]

Did I really just read what i think I did?
Pacman Jones has been involved in how many criminal incidents? He has how much to lose?
He is denying he did anything wrong.
And the correct thing to do is to put EQUAL belief in him and the people who are investigating his role in a crime?

I don't know Pacman Jones either, and I am not convicting him, but it is ludicrous to say he shouldbe considered EQUALLY credible. Let me get this straight. To boil it down simply, he is being investigated and could end up in prison. The investigators think he is involved, and he says no I'm not, and you believe there is an EQUAL likelihood that the police and DA are lying and Pacman is honest as the day is long?

I would like to play poker with you.

 

[Ring 6]

Until the same type of punishment is handed down to the jailbird (Tank) on 1 of the leagues flagship teams who just played in the Super Bowl (Bears) it does look like a bit of a selective enformcent publicity stunt.

And since no one not related to Henry or Jones has any sympathy for them, it is a very effective publicity stunt.

I wonder if anyone related to them has any sympathy either.

 

[Michigan Dave]

Did I really just read what i think I did?
Pacman Jones has been involved in how many criminal incidents? He has how much to lose?
He is denying he did anything wrong.
And the correct thing to do is to put EQUAL belief in him and the people who are investigating his role in a crime?

I don't know Pacman Jones either, and I am not convicting him, but it is ludicrous to say he shouldbe considered EQUALLY credible. Let me get this straight. To boil it down simply, he is being investigated and could end up in prison. The investigators think he is involved, and he says no I'm not, and you believe there is an EQUAL likelihood that the police and DA are lying and Pacman is honest as the day is long?

I would like to play poker with you.

The investigators thought the Duke lacrosse players were involved, they said no we're not, and we found out what the facts are.

I am not saying I believe what Jones said. Just that I'm not inclined to believe hearsay from "insider" friends in the LVPD. Read the guy's posts. They're written like a fourth grader, and he has already declared Jones guilty on page 1. I'll put stock in what I hear for myself, not his "insider" friends. That is what I was saying.

 

[Ring 6]

The investigators thought the Duke lacrosse players were involved, they said no we're not, and we found out what the facts are.

I am not saying I believe what Jones said. Just that I'm not inclined to believe hearsay from "insider" friends in the LVPD. Read the guy's posts. They're written like a fourth grader, and he has already declared Jones guilty on page 1. I'll put stock in what I hear for myself, not his "insider" friends. That is what I was saying.

You have some big gaps there.
-There was a victim in the Duke case that ACCUSED them. It would be dereliction of duty to not pursue the investigation.
-Even in the broadest criticismof the Duke case, that is one example. You cannot honestly tell me that its a 50/50 issue, that half the time the police feel someone was involved ina crime they are wrong. On top of that you imply they are manufacturing the story. Do you really believe that happens 50% of the time?
-Pacman Jones has been involved in a multitude of problems. Sure that doesnt make him guilty, but its ludicrous to say that you judge the odds to be EQUAL that he did nothing and that he is being railroaded. I would expect that if it was me, and I had never had any trouble, that you may feel it was equal. If you read that Daryl Strawberry was arrested for drugs would you say you felt there was an EQUAL chance that he was innocent and framed?
-If your point is you don't know the details so you cannot reach a final judgment, I respect that opinion. However those that do know the details (the NFL) did reach a judgment, and you are implying that they were wrong without knowing what the details are that they were privy to. Isnt that EQUALLY jumping the gun to saying he is guilty without knowing the facts?
If your point truly is what it has morphed into, that with a gun to your head you would say it is 50/50 that Jones is totally innocent, you need to get a dose of reality. Perhaps he is innocent, but it is pretty offensive for you to say that the state of our society is that a thug who has involved in so many unaccpetable situations is equally as likely to be telling the truth the he did nothing as the legal system of this country.

 

[Ring 6]

The investigators thought the Duke lacrosse players were involved, they said no we're not, and we found out what the facts are.

I am not saying I believe what Jones said. Just that I'm not inclined to believe hearsay from "insider" friends in the LVPD. Read the guy's posts. They're written like a fourth grader, and he has already declared Jones guilty on page 1. I'll put stock in what I hear for myself, not his "insider" friends. That is what I was saying.

Oh, and by the way, I do not find any more credence in your posts because you criticize the grammar of the other poster.
You do realize that you are telling a police officer that you feel the honesty of a guy who has been involved in over a dozen criminal issues in the last year, who was just suspended from his job, because the NFL believes he is wrong, is equally credible to the average police officer, dont you?

 

[pats-blue]

The investigators thought the Duke lacrosse players were involved, they said no we're not, and we found out what the facts are.

I am not saying I believe what Jones said. Just that I'm not inclined to believe hearsay from "insider" friends in the LVPD. Read the guy's posts. They're written like a fourth grader, and he has already declared Jones guilty on page 1. I'll put stock in what I hear for myself, not his "insider" friends. That is what I was saying.

Written like a fourth grader? Ok you know I love your football posts but your an idiot. What ever. I do not put a lot of effort into these posts as I am currently remodeling my house and am currently on a ton of allergy medicine. I usually don't brag but I would venture to guess I am at least as intelligent as you and obviously have alot more common sense. I was accepted to Harvard engineering school but couldn't afford it and had to drop out. I also have never lost a case in court in 12 years. EVERY and I mean EVERY single person I filed charges on has been found guilty.

BY the way there is video of the incident inside the club where he bounces a girls head off the stage.

Written like a fourth grader, get over yourself jerkoff.

 

[pats-blue]

Oh, and by the way, I do not find any more credence in your posts because you criticize the grammar of the other poster.
You do realize that you are telling a police officer that you feel the honesty of a guy who has been involved in over a dozen criminal issues in the last year, who was just suspended from his job, because the NFL believes he is wrong, is equally credible to the average police officer, dont you?

Thanks Andy. That is the crux of my argument. By he wasn't criticizing my grammer he stated I wrote like a 4th grader. I'm not going to pollute this post but he can read my response to that in my other post.

 

[Ring 6]

Thanks Andy. That is the crux of my argument. By he wasn't criticizing my grammer he stated I wrote like a 4th grader. I'm not going to pollute this post but he can read my response to that in my other post.

I really havent read the entire thread, but I have a hard time being silent when I see something offensive. I was using 'grammar' to cover the entire 'write like a 4th grader' slam.

 

[Michigan Dave]

You have some big gaps there.
-There was a victim in the Duke case that ACCUSED them. It would be dereliction of duty to not pursue the investigation.

Correct. Investigating and coercing witnesses are two different things.

-Even in the broadest criticismof the Duke case, that is one example. You cannot honestly tell me that its a 50/50 issue, that half the time the police feel someone was involved ina crime they are wrong. On top of that you imply they are manufacturing the story. Do you really believe that happens 50% of the time?

Absolutely not. But I don't know what happened in Durham, so I waited for the facts to come out. I listened to what the girl said, what the officers and prosecutors said, and what those kids said before making my decision. That's my point. The Jones case is probably not manufactured, and I don't believe that it happens 10% of the time, let alone 50%. But, I see no harm in waiting until charges are brought and the accused has a fair shot at defending himself before passing my judgment.

-Pacman Jones has been involved in a multitude of problems. Sure that doesnt make him guilty, but its ludicrous to say that you judge the odds to be EQUAL that he did nothing and that he is being railroaded. I would expect that if it was me, and I had never had any trouble, that you may feel it was equal. If you read that Daryl Strawberry was arrested for drugs would you say you felt there was an EQUAL chance that he was innocent and framed?

All I am saying is that I will hear what he has to say. I have not found him guilty of anything yet. Perhaps "equal" was the wrong wording. I concede there.

-If your point is you don't know the details so you cannot reach a final judgment, I respect that opinion. However those that do know the details (the NFL) did reach a judgment, and you are implying that they were wrong without knowing what the details are that they were privy to. Isnt that EQUALLY jumping the gun to saying he is guilty without knowing the facts?
If your point truly is what it has morphed into, that with a gun to your head you would say it is 50/50 that Jones is totally innocent, you need to get a dose of reality. Perhaps he is innocent, but it is pretty offensive for you to say that the state of our society is that a thug who has involved in so many unaccpetable situations is equally as likely to be telling the truth the he did nothing as the legal system of this country.

Duke made a decision based on facts in their case as well, canceled the season, and fired a coach. Again, I'd wait for things to play out. My position here is not that Jones is innocent. He deserves punishment for violating the CoC. I think that is being lost here. I just feel judgment should've been deferred until the case was resolved. Then an appropriate punishment levied.

 

[Michigan Dave]

Oh, and by the way, I do not find any more credence in your posts because you criticize the grammar of the other poster.
You do realize that you are telling a police officer that you feel the honesty of a guy who has been involved in over a dozen criminal issues in the last year, who was just suspended from his job, because the NFL believes he is wrong, is equally credible to the average police officer, dont you?

I criticized the grammar out of frustration, and I apologize. However, reading the condescending tone of the posts by Pats-Blue in this thread toward me is annoying. I've no problem hearing his argument and giving it merit, and I've made every attempt to keep it civil. I lost my cool and apologize.

Just keep in mind that Jones was suspended because he gave the league a black eye, not because the NFL has found him guilty in this case. There is a big difference. CoC is not guilty/not guilty. He can be suspended for being in a place he shouldn't have been, doing things he shouldn't have been. I agree he did both, and my issue is with the harshness of his suspension, not that it was laid down in the first place.

 

[Ring 6]

Correct. Investigating and coercing witnesses are two different things.



Absolutely not. But I don't know what happened in Durham, so I waited for the facts to come out. I listened to what the girl said, what the officers and prosecutors said, and what those kids said before making my decision. That's my point. The Jones case is probably not manufactured, and I don't believe that it happens 10% of the time, let alone 50%. But, I see no harm in waiting until charges are brought and the accused has a fair shot at defending himself before passing my judgment.



All I am saying is that I will hear what he has to say. I have not found him guilty of anything yet. Perhaps "equal" was the wrong wording. I concede there.



Duke made a decision based on facts in their case as well, canceled the season, and fired a coach. Again, I'd wait for things to play out. My position here is not that Jones is innocent. He deserves punishment for violating the CoC. I think that is being lost here. I just feel judgment should've been deferred until the case was resolved. Then an appropriate punishment levied.

As I said earlier, if your opinion is that SOMETIMES those that appear guilty turn out to be innocent; that there is a CHANCE that he is telling the truth, and is being wrongly accused, and that you are holding final judgment until all the facts arein and judged, then I have no problem with your opinion.
If that is your point, you arent doing a very good job of expressing it.

By the way, I think you are stetching on the Duke issue.
The season was cancelled, the coach was fired (I thought he resigned, but I could be wrong) not based on the presumption of guilt, but based on the actions of the players which included being drunk and paying strippers. If they had gotten caught by other means than charged with rape, the details of what else they were doing would have resulted in severe, if not equal, disciplinary action.

 

[Michigan Dave]

Written like a fourth grader? Ok you know I love your football posts but your an idiot. What ever. I do not put a lot of effort into these posts as I am currently remodeling my house and am currently on a ton of allergy medicine. I usually don't brag but I would venture to guess I am at least as intelligent as you and obviously have alot more common sense. I was accepted to Harvard engineering school but couldn't afford it and had to drop out. I also have never lost a case in court in 12 years. EVERY and I mean EVERY single person I filed charges on has been found guilty.

BY the way there is video of the incident inside the club where he bounces a girls head off the stage.

Written like a fourth grader, get over yourself jerkoff.

Go back and read your posts, and listen to the tone you took with me. The "buying a bridge" comment, this:

but thanks I will believe them rather than third or fourth hand accounts of a version from "pac" the thug you can stay in your world it will serve you well in court.

and others. I apologize for the grammar comment. As I stated above, it was born namely out of frustration. Yet still, you counter by calling me an idiot and hopping on the defensive right away. I do not hold your point of view as anything other than a differing opinion on an issue. That's it. I may disagree with you here, yet agree with you in the thread above this. I'm not indicting your intelligence, rather your choice at resorting to personal attacks. Bottom line. I try and acknowledge your opinion, and counter with an explanation of my viewpoint. Yet consistently here your defense is that I am just flat out wrong. There was no attempt to counter with any sort of understanding. Read Andy's posts. He agrees with you, yet was able to respond by first acknowledging my position. That's all I ask when debating on here.

Again, I apologize for my earlier comment.

 

[Ring 6]

I criticized the grammar out of frustration, and I apologize. However, reading the condescending tone of the posts by Pats-Blue in this thread toward me is annoying. I've no problem hearing his argument and giving it merit, and I've made every attempt to keep it civil. I lost my cool and apologize.

Just keep in mind that Jones was suspended because he gave the league a black eye, not because the NFL has found him guilty in this case. There is a big difference. CoC is not guilty/not guilty. He can be suspended for being in a place he shouldn't have been, doing things he shouldn't have been. I agree he did both, and my issue is with the harshness of his suspension, not that it was laid down in the first place.

Well, he wouldnt be suspended for being in the wrong place at the wrong time ONCE.
The NFL SHOULD suspend players for giving it a black eye, they must protect the reputation of their sport, as well as use discipline to clean it up.
How many issues would he have to be involved in for you to not consider 1 year harsh? I mean, really, he has pretty much been non-stop trouble since entering the league.
I'm no expert on Pacman Jones, but I cant imagine that its possible to get into more incidents of trouble in such a short period of time as him.

 

[Michigan Dave]

As I said earlier, if your opinion is that SOMETIMES those that appear guilty turn out to be innocent; that there is a CHANCE that he is telling the truth, and is being wrongly accused, and that you are holding final judgment until all the facts arein and judged, then I have no problem with your opinion.
If that is your point, you arent doing a very good job of expressing it.

I think the problem is that I failed to convey that I was referencing the initial post presuming Jones guilty based on inside information that is not public. I expressed that as a belief that ALL law enforcement and ALL alleged criminals are on equal footing. I choose to hold everything equal myself, and then sort through what makes the most sense. Most of the time, the case presented by the authorities is not riddled with holes like the defendant's.

By the way, I think you are stetching on the Duke issue.
The season was cancelled, the coach was fired (I thought he resigned, but I could be wrong) not based on the presumption of guilt, but based on the actions of the players which included being drunk and paying strippers. If they had gotten caught by other means than charged with rape, the details of what else they were doing would have resulted in severe, if not equal, disciplinary action.

It's a similar issue in that the punishment was levied based on overwhelmingly negative public sentiment. Other teams at other schools have been caught drinking with strippers (and worse- some initiations have come under school administration as well) and since they were not as well publicized, they were not as severely published.

 

[Michigan Dave]

Well, he wouldnt be suspended for being in the wrong place at the wrong time ONCE.
The NFL SHOULD suspend players for giving it a black eye, they must protect the reputation of their sport, as well as use discipline to clean it up.
How many issues would he have to be involved in for you to not consider 1 year harsh? I mean, really, he has pretty much been non-stop trouble since entering the league.
I'm no expert on Pacman Jones, but I cant imagine that its possible to get into more incidents of trouble in such a short period of time as him.

I don't know. As of right now, if he is convicted of this, I have no qualms with a yearlong suspension. But if he is acquitted, well, that's rough. Where do you draw the line? Can I call up 15 friends in Indianapolis, and have them follow Peyton Manning around town causing trouble and accusing him of crimes? The charges wouldn't stick, but only one of Jones' thusfar has. This is why I like a clearly defined disciplinary system. A yearlong suspension for a CoC violation that produces no convictions would be a tough precedent to set.