Our Rb's

[mgteich]

What’s the O-line’s excuse though?

I don't know.

1) For the first half of the game, TB was blitzing on almost every play, until Jones was so good that they stopped.

2) Herron sux.

 

[mgteich]

Here's an interesting stat on Jones targeting Bolden on third down last night. He was 4-of-4 targeting him.

Bolden only had one first down

He obviously also caught that pass from Meyers and picked up 15, which was still short of the marker.

He's definitely not James White and they need someone to step into that role - but at the same time, they also need to be able to pick up the blitz.

What a mess...losing White was such a big blow. Between that and Trent Brown, it's definitely made things tougher than it needed to be.

Bolden is the best option as a 3rd down back. He isn't terrible at all as a blocker and as a receiver.

We started with Harris and White, with Stevenson as Bolden as their backups.

Two is simply not enough.

Taylor should have been and should be on the Practice Squad.

Stevenson is a developmental RB; it is fine to have one of them. He may improve during the year. We can afford this because we have Bolden.

In the end, we lost White and Taylor should be cut. We need a RB.

 

[venecol]

Next to our O-line, this has been the most disappointing position on our team so far. What do we do going forward? Harris is a stud, don't think anyone will argue that but, JJ had a huge fumble last night and we didn't see him after that. I love the way Bolden picks up the blitz, but don't want to see him running the ball or catching it too often out of the backfield I think we revisit playing RHAM and see what he can do. Do we try and bring in a FA player...I know we had a few in for tryouts last week, but in our offense, it might take them a while to pick up the scheme.

Any thoughts? Obviously, getting Brown back will help, but at this point, can we rely on him staying healthy?

I don't think we should rely on Brown honestly. Since his last gig with us in 2018 he's been trending downward in games played per season.

 

[catent]

The Patriots have faced an incredibly difficult slate of defensive fronts so far. I don’t think the line is as bad as suspected.

This - 100% agreed.

The fronts they've played are athletic, aggressive, and well-coached. The Jets are the least talented of the bunch but they're not terrible. Miami, New Orleans and Tampa have anywhere from very good to great front-7s.

The same offensive linemen in the same positions all played significantly better during the preseason. Getting Brown back will help.

The OL and Mac have had a baptism by fire to the start the season, basically the equivalent to swinging the bat with a donut on for four games. Hopefully playing against those talented front-7s and facing some adversity early in the season will help them find success later in the season, because they're better prepared for adversity and because the defenses they'll be playing against simply won't be as good/aggressive (until the postseason, of course, should they get there).

 

[catent]

It was the priority this offseason.

Wynn's option
Andrews re-signed
Owenu moved to natural postion
Traded for Trent
Signed Karras

I'm not ready to give up on this line but they've bottomed out.

I think they bottomed out against New Orleans. Yesterday was a big step in the right direction, IMO. They looked pretty good in the 1st half, had a slight lull after halftime, but quickly got things back together for the remainder of the 2nd half. Some mistakes? Of course - Tampa will force those.

But things looked a lot better in my opinion. I didn't have this sense of dread when I watched Mac drop-back last night, and that was partially due to the improved OL and partially due to Mac making some improvements to his pocket-presence and movement.

 

[catent]

Unlike the thread would suggest Wynn was actually by far most consistent run blocker on the night while playing through injury.
Onwenu who was by far highest rated NE OL over 3 weeks (by PFF fwiw) had a rough night and was possibly benched (no inj reported)
They are exchanging Herron and Durant at RT like its DL but both are big liabilities esp. in run game. It effects Mason as well.
@TE Jonnu is doing better - Hanry was in only on 1 run play (bad) which is not a good sign.
@WR - this is under the radar big problem. Harry is the only WR who can block. I noticed Myers bad blocking (borderline unwillingness) in preseason and unfortunately that continues. he did better last year iirc. Pats normally relied on good run blocking by WRs and now first 3 WRs look bad.
@FB - Jakub Johnson is just not on the level this year. If they want to use legit FB and carry one on 53 they should upgrade as i was saying going into FA. Ben Mason could be the answer but he was not here before the season so it might take time esp with how conservative (stubborn) BB is making changes.

So its not just about fixing OL (which should be fixable) but fixing blocking around the line as well.

Agholor is a fine blocker. Meyers should be good enough. Bourne definitely isn't much of a blocker, but he's the only legitimate liability I see in that regard. I think Agholor and Meyers are good enough blockers for us to successfully run the ball from 11 personnel.

 

[stcjones]

What do you do with Rham, give him another shot?

YES!

 

[stcjones]

Rhamondre doesnt have the luxury of being RS anymor with White out. He showed a looooot of promise, but that "fumble" man

If Bolden continues to be our 2nd RB, we are toasted

In fairness to Stevenson he did have a dislocated finger iirc ( I’m sure it was put back in place and taped) but may have affected his hold on the ball….hopefully he gets another shot soon ….we need him!

 

[PScottman]

Lots of blind talk. Lets look at some film.
Its from yesterday so not ideal since Pats hardly tried to run & opposite was #1 run D . but still indicative enough of key problems.

play 1 : Herron, Mason & Andrews pancaked @ LOS; Wynn seals the edge, Onwenu pulls and is late, Harry blown by Tryon who stops Jakub before he can reach the end of the line

play 2 : Onwenu whiffs completely @Los & 2-lvl, Andrews overwhelmed leaves Gholston free who makes tkl for no gain;
Wynn again only one doing his job, Henry lost, Jonnu beat, Myers not even trying; JJ has nowhere to go

play 3 : Jonnu & Wynn sealing their edge (cutting off 3 TB players), Onwenu looses key block on Nunez-Roches (+holds) who bumps Harris 3y behind LOS; Andrews & Mason do ok on their blocks, Myers late (not trying), Jakub whiffs and tackles Durant. Holding on Onwenu called.

play 4 : relatively decent job by most but Durant cant seal his block and is moved into the lane so Harris hesitates, lanes close

play 5 : decent blocks by most except Onwenu holds Vea - penalty called. Harris does run for 3yds - David is unblocked and makes easy tkl.

play 6 : decent blocking by OL but Meyers whiffs on Whitehead who makes TFL on Bolden; Jakubs lead block is poor but doesnt impact the play

play 7 : Bourne is blown off of LOS by Whitehead who makes another TFL, Jakub stands by

play 8 : TB DL overwhelms NE OL, Herron misses his man, Jakub as well; last running play in the game at the beginning of 2nd half!

Great analysis. There's a tendency to point to a single individual and think a solution lies in simple player replacement (it can be the case, but usually isn't).

As you lay out well here successful run blocking requires an all-11 necessity to execute. I would bet the pass blocking would show similarity in that even if Trent Brown were out there seem to be other underlying issues to be addressed. You could have Nick Chubb....Hell, Jim F'n Brown...behind this line right now and it wouldn't matter - the running game is a team issue not purely a RB issue.

There's also give and take in the RB discussion. This is a rebuilding team - how much of that rebuild capital should such a team expend to address it taking risk in future years? Look at the difference between blitz pickup (not getting your QB killed) and getting yards via the RB catching the ball. There's numerous examples of the RBs absolutely whiffing on blocks this year - especially the rooks/youth - putting the offense in unrecoverable positions at the same time other examples of starting to figure that pass pro aspect out but at the cost of dynamics in pass catching (White vs Bolden).

Continuing the team approach - the WRs and TEs can help the OL and RBs here too. The blitz is just as apt to reduce due to good perimeter execution and blocking leading to a "chunk" play as a 50 yard bomb. There were a lot of positives in the TB game toward that outcome - not absolutes, but steps.

There's probably only a few "solutions" to the RB concern.

1. Trade. (How much capital to expend) Either OL or RB are considerations. (then integration which isn't a given)
2. Free Agent signing (given the time of year - odds are any replacement will also lack in one thing or another pass pro or dynamic after the catch)
3. Repetition and coaching.

None of these are absolute "locks". All of them carry risk. As I have never thought this team was even a chance for a Super Bowl this year, why would they use precious resources to try and "win now"? Plus they have other needs moving forward - Hightower and McCourty especially are replacement concerns into next year. Tackle is still a worry as well. All of these are high cost to on-field return and I know in a salary cap reality they cant have it all.

 

[Gumby]

YES!

I agree I’d like to see Stevenson back in there. He’s had 3 more weeks of practice at blitz pickup blocks.

i read that the missed block played more into the decision to sit him than the fumble did. If you are going to get the QB killed, then you don't get on the field. We have a situation at the RB spot and needs to be fixed

AND, I’m not sure but when I compare the game Log

to the CURRENT Pats webpage stats for the Miami game

They seem to have removed the fumble from his stats.
so maybe they agree it was idiot refs who call a fumble while you sit on your ass.

 

[long distance]

Great analysis. There's a tendency to point to a single individual and think a solution lies in simple player replacement (it can be the case, but usually isn't).

As you lay out well here successful run blocking requires an all-11 necessity to execute. I would bet the pass blocking would show similarity in that even if Trent Brown were out there seem to be other underlying issues to be addressed. You could have Nick Chubb....Hell, Jim F'n Brown...behind this line right now and it wouldn't matter - the running game is a team issue not purely a RB issue.

There's also give and take in the RB discussion. This is a rebuilding team - how much of that rebuild capital should such a team expend to address it taking risk in future years? Look at the difference between blitz pickup (not getting your QB killed) and getting yards via the RB catching the ball. There's numerous examples of the RBs absolutely whiffing on blocks this year - especially the rooks/youth - putting the offense in unrecoverable positions at the same time other examples of starting to figure that pass pro aspect out but at the cost of dynamics in pass catching (White vs Bolden).

Continuing the team approach - the WRs and TEs can help the OL and RBs here too. The blitz is just as apt to reduce due to good perimeter execution and blocking leading to a "chunk" play as a 50 yard bomb. There were a lot of positives in the TB game toward that outcome - not absolutes, but steps.

There's probably only a few "solutions" to the RB concern.

1. Trade. (How much capital to expend) Either OL or RB are considerations. (then integration which isn't a given)
2. Free Agent signing (given the time of year - odds are any replacement will also lack in one thing or another pass pro or dynamic after the catch)
3. Repetition and coaching.

None of these are absolute "locks". All of them carry risk. As I have never thought this team was even a chance for a Super Bowl this year, why would they use precious resources to try and "win now"? Plus they have other needs moving forward - Hightower and McCourty especially are replacement concerns into next year. Tackle is still a worry as well. All of these are high cost to on-field return and I know in a salary cap reality they cant have it all.

BB wanted to have a bigger lead back this year but he missed out on Carson who was reportedly first choice but preferred to return to SEA.
Fournette and some others were mentioned later. Id guess he saw Harris (or Sony) as #2 in rotation.

With Sony and White gone, Stevenson's PP issues (that were not apparent in preseason) suddenly Harris is pushed into heavy work load which is not ideal and will not end well.

But as you mention, running game is not so much about RBs. Until basic issues of run blocking are cleaned up personnel doesnt matter much.
The loss of Popovich - direct heir to Dante - was a big blow for me but still didnt expect such regression of OL. There is enough talent on OL though to hope for significant improvement once RT position is fixed & the rest of the crew (esp WRs) starts executing as they should. Return of Harry will help but i hope Henry can step up as well. FB should be addressed but i doubt.

While i dont expect immediate roster addition at RB im sure they will be looking & possibly adding one on PS. They worked out 4 last week incl Ito Smith, guys like Gurley are still on the street. RB is the easiest position to add on the fly, its not rare that guys from the street are significant contributors later in the season so im not worried about personnel. Still believe Stevenson can have a big role and can step up in PP enough to not be a liability.

 

[Pape]

is it me or does Wynn look like he's lost all of his balance and mobility?

Think he could be playing hurt/have an undisclosed injury?

i would say coaching. We basically improved the OLine personnel from last year but they are way worse IMO.

The loss of Thuney has had a huge impact. Thuney solidified the line last year. In no way have we improved on the line - we added a bit of depth.

Brown is a good player - when he plays. Which ain't that much lately.

 

[ashley]

I don't think we should rely on Brown honestly. Since his last gig with us in 2018 he's been trending downward in games played per season.

View attachment 36295

The frustrating thing about Brown is that when he plays, he has been really, really good....but as you mentioned he can't be relied upon lately.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I think they bottomed out against New Orleans. Yesterday was a big step in the right direction, IMO. They looked pretty good in the 1st half, had a slight lull after halftime, but quickly got things back together for the remainder of the 2nd half. Some mistakes? Of course - Tampa will force those.

But things looked a lot better in my opinion. I didn't have this sense of dread when I watched Mac drop-back last night, and that was partially due to the improved OL and partially due to Mac making some improvements to his pocket-presence and movement.

I dunno. Let's see how it goes next week. I hope you are right.

 

[Ryan]

Rex Burkhead appears to be doing nothing in Houston right now. It's too bad we couldn't get him back.

 

[Nunchucks]

You guys who want to bring back these players who are fumbles, you do realize that they may have lost 2 games and they are like to fumble again if it isn't properly addressed

 

[Kontradiction]

They’re all great. Deepest RB corps in the league. Coach Bill never misses. Come playoff time, they’ll be a huge asset for us. Those of you who disagree should just go to another team’s board and post there.

 

[long distance]

You guys who want to bring back these players who are fumbles, you do realize that they may have lost 2 games and they are like to fumble again if it isn't properly addressed

Ball security is properly addressed at every training. Fumbling - like everything - is circumstantial as well. I see it more as part of frustration not being able to establish the run as a team. I dont see any RB on the roster as “fumbler“. To me these were mostly “team fumbles“ and that includes coaching. Its easy to say “take care of the ball“, “you must know when the journey is done“. But before that - give them a ****ing chance..

 

[Kontradiction]

Ball security is properly addressed at every training. Fumbling - like everything - is circumstantial as well. I see it more as part of frustration not being able to establish the run as a team. I dont see any RB on the roster as “fumbler“. To me these were mostly “team fumbles“ and that includes coaching. Its easy to say “take care of the ball“, “you must know when the journey is done“. But before that - give them a ****ing chance..

Bill made the right call benching Stevenson. Who am I to disagree? I haven’t won 6 Super Bowls as a head coach. I’ll continue to say that Bill made the right call in benching Stevenson until he takes Stevenson off the bench. Then? Of course it will be the right move.

IBBIT.

 

[Rob0729]

If the offensive line is getting knocked off the ball, you aren't going to be able to run the ball unless you have a really dynamic RB who can consistently make plays themselves out of nothing. And the Pats don't have a RB like that on their roster. Most teams don't.