Our Coordinators

[Tunescribe]

@JayNM you can't get mad when someone goes after your post. It's a football board and debate will happen. I'm sorry but I read your post the same way.

You gave no real specifics or insight with respect. Just said things, that aren't true.

Like the EP being dated. 1/3 of the league are using it in some form. Same can be said about our scouting system. About 10-12 teams use it in some variation. It's not bc it's outdated.

Also the Pats were in the top half of the league in term motion at the snap throughout most the season I believe. Like 14 in the league around Nov.

It sounds like your problem is with the personnel bc Josh has done a fantastic job at maximizing this current group under a rookie QB. Both had clear ceilings this year and they hit them.

We should want more insight and detail here not less.

Bacon, I'm curious what your take is on why this defense fell apart so drastically. I have ideas but they aren't coalescing into an explanation I'd consider satisfactory.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

In your initial post you came out in ALL CAPS making criticisms of the coaching staff; saying they should be replaced for reasons that made absolutely no sense, and were just ignorant. You did this by coming off, fraudetly, as someone who had a solid knowledge of football. So, I called you out, and I picked apart your post with a critical awarenees while using the same tone that you established from the get-go. That's fair game. Again, you came out swinging so why would you ever expect me to treat you with the "kids gloves" on? That's a double standard. I respect the team I cheer for, as well as the coaching staff, & I know damn-well you criticism is garbage, so why should I ever let you run your mouth like that when I know your criticism is BS? You got called out, as you should have, with legit criticism. Your reaction? Ignore the legit points I made, and act as if I'm simply trolling you (which is false). You do this because you know I'm right. That's on you, not me.

Back to the discussion.

• Ok, so we've established you are indeed referring to 00 personnel (5 wide recievers, no TE or Backs). Again, no one uses 00 personnel. No one. practically ever. I explained above. You are wrong.
• With Brady, the Patriots used motion more than anyone. Did they use less with Mac Jones? Yes, because he's a rookie and it makes the protection and coverage far, far more complex. i.e. If the O is in motion, then so is the D. For example, In San Fran on MNF, they mentioned Kittle has to call out some of the protection in motion because they use motion more than anyone and Jimmy G has trouble focusing on reading the coverage because of it. Again, too many moving pieces. Brady can do this. Young QBs cannot.
• Also, the Patriots use trips and bunch all the time. Every team does. I have no idea what you are talking about. They have different numbers for their protection based on 3x1 vs 2x2 formations (i.e. 54/55 vs 56/57 protection).

Juice also does this and is extremely important in that regard. He'll even call out fake calls to try and throw someone off a tick.

I've mentioned this all year but our offense was a bit slow lining up, like just getting all 11 on the same page. WR's weren't always set until the very last second. Motion only makes things harder in terms of getting everyone set and timed up correctly.

 

[Toofy]

He could bring in a great seasoned veteran defensive coach, Vic Fangio, and that should ease the blow of passing over Steve and Jerod.

That's actually a good suggestion. Either Vic Fangio or Mike Zimmer as defensive coach.

And please can we avoid losing wolf in the front office

 

[Shockt327]

I was definitely referring to personnel with no backs, as in just receivers (see BCG reply). Including TEs, just excluding RBs

Except, you wrote "00" in your post.

Also, it's a moot point because "01" only got used 2% of the time in the entire league.

 

[JayNM]

1) So, now you are claiming that that you do not know of anything that is innovative, because it hasn't been invented yet? Ok, well, how about you show me a previous innovation that came from Josh McDaniels...or from another coach? You claim the Pats have fallen behind. Tell me what these other teams are doing.
Your 1st post:
"We gotta a Extremely succesful, legacy-setting OC, WHO HAS STOPPED INNOVATING IN YEARS AND HAS CLEARLY FALLEN BEHIND THE CONCEPTS OF THE MODERN GAME, running EVERYTHING on Offense."

Ahn? Babaca, tu quer uma lista?
Beleza, uma coisa como voce pediu: Dupla HernanGronk, com o Hernandez servind como um protótipo H-Back/ Split TE, enquanto Gronk emergia como "Puro" TE. Pronto.

Inovação dps disso? De cabeça, qqr coisa dos Ravens nos tempos de Lamar. A diferença é que eles tem mais de um TE decente, a gente so tem o Henry. E so para nao deixar batido, o mais perto que chegamos disso foi com Bennett e Gronk, mas um deles sempre tava machucado

2) Regarding your point of "Medium zone," you claimed the EP offense struggles to attack it. How? Show me Xs & Os in other system that do successfully attack it (because NE probably already does the same thing)? Also, I specifically pointed how good the Pats have at attacking the middle of the field with Gronk & Henry. I even pointed one type of innovative protection: Jab 144 Ctr Hot.

lol Vou aqui deixar de viver minha vida para pesquisar jogadas que se assemelhem a um exemplo por um besta irritado na internet. Parceiro, primeiro eu não disse que EP em si, tem dificuldades (ou se disse, em outros posts nesse thread, eu certamente ja clarifiquei isso). É o NOSSO sistema.. Nosso Playbook, O playbook dos Patriots, com as filosofias inerentes a ele, que não são voltadas para formações em bunch (tb ja defini o que eu quero dizer sobre isso), ao contrário do que eu vejo nos bons ataques aereos da liga (nomeadamente Rams, 49ers, heck, ate o Cowboys tem sido pica de ver. Nem tudo são os jogadores. Parabens campeão, não tenho mais idade e tempo de especificamente te responder como um time profissional de futebol americano pode vencer outro time profissional de futebol americano,.

E eu vou ate deixar passar que tu ta misturando Gronk e Henry no mesmo time, pelo que eu entendi.

You seem to be avoiding the actual discussion of football. I don't find that surprising.

Bora parceiro, eu espero que tu não demore tanto pra próxima e so pra ficar claro

Or do you want me to provide you a play and you have to break it down?

I'm open to either....

VAMOS!

AH VAMOS!

PF

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Bacon, I'm curious what your take is on why this defense fell apart so drastically. I have ideas but they aren't coalescing into an explanation I'd consider satisfactory.

I'm probably going to start a thread mostly focusing on D soon. Most likely in a few hours. Looking at scheme, players/talent and a few other things.

Basically asking or expecting too much of the guys up front. Thin as **** at CB. Scheme at times didn't help. LB's need a look for sure but the problems on defense are much more drastic up front and in the secondary.

This entire team hit a wall a month ago if we're being honest. We basically hit our ceiling all the way around.

I'm hoping we get a good discussion out of it bc it's going to touch on a lot of things. I'd like to see what some people think and get a bunch of opinions from folks here.

 

[Shockt327]

Juice also does this and is extremely important in that regard. He'll even call out fake calls to try and throw someone off a tick.

I've mentioned this all year but our offense was a bit slow lining up, like just getting all 11 on the same page. WR's weren't always set until the very last second. Motion only makes things harder in terms of getting everyone set and timed up correctly.

Yes the Patriots made lazy mistakes at times for sure, but the lack of motion this year compared to years past (w/ Brady) is also because they are more run heavy. Using motion is mostly for determining man vs zone in the passing game. You really won't need that for run plays.

Also, sorry, but who is "Juice"?

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Yes the Patriots made lazy mistakes at times for sure, but the lack of motion this year compared to years past (w/ Brady) is also because they are more run heavy. Using motion is mostly for determining man vs zone in the passing game. You really won't need that for run plays.

Also, sorry, but who is "Juice"?

#44 Kyle Juszcyk. He's been a saving grace for Jimmy and others on offense. Apparently really smart and helps everyone with the way he communicates.

 

[Tunescribe]

I'm probably going to start a thread mostly focusing on D soon. Most likely in a few hours. Looking at scheme, players/talent and a few other things.

Basically asking or expecting too much of the guys up front. Thin as **** at CB. Scheme at times didn't help. LB's need a look for sure but the problems on defense are much more drastic up front and in the secondary.

This entire team hit a wall a month ago if we're being honest. We basically hit our ceiling all the way around.

I'm hoping we get a good discussion out of it bc it's going to touch on a lot of things. I'd like to see what some people think and get a bunch of opinions from folks here.

Looking forward to it and learning some things.

 

[Shockt327]

#44 Kyle Juszcyk. He's been a saving grace for Jimmy and others on offense. Apparently really smart and helps everyone with the way he communicates.

Oh, Yes. I actually think it was Kyle Juszcyk that was making protection calls instead of Kittle, as I mentioned.

 

[raduray]

Everything he learned was IN-HOUSE.

That's a really good point and can lead to stagnation. OTOH, haven't all our other coordinators been home grown?

 

[Shockt327]

Huh? *******, do you want a list?
Okay, something like you asked for: Duo HernanGronk, with Hernandez serving as a prototype H-Back/Split TE, while Gronk emerged as "Pure" TE. Ready.

Innovation from this? In my head, anything about the Ravens in Lamar's day. The difference is that they have more than one decent TE, we only have Henry. And just so we don't miss out, the closest we got to that was with Bennett and Gronk, but one of them was always hurting.

lol I'm going to stop living my life here to search for plays that resemble an example by an angry beast on the internet. Partner, first I didn't say that EP itself has difficulties (or if I did, in other posts in this thread, I certainly already clarified this). It's OUR system.. Our Playbook, The Patriots' playbook, with its inherent philosophies, which are not geared towards bunch formations (I've already defined what I want to say about it), contrary to what I see in the good air attacks. Congratulations champion, I don't have the age and time to specifically answer you how a professional football team can beat another professional football team.

And I'll even let it go that you're mixing Gronk and Henry on the same team, from what I understand.

Come on partner, I hope you don't take so long for the next one

1) Ok, Gronk and Hernandez? Good pick. But you do not mention what was so innovative about this. Why did defenses struggle vs those two? This is an easy question. Hint: Think run vs. pass.

2) You are comparing how Baltimore uses TEs to how NE wanted to use Bennett and Gronk. But these two are very, very different. Lamarr Jackson broke out while using heavy formations for use of the triple option. (it's more H & F in the backfiels along with TE). But they haven't been nearly as successful in recent years because they need to be more pass oriented. NE never had that problem.

4) I already completely shot down your point on the Patriots not "being geared" towards trips/bunch formations. They use trips all the time.

3) Hey, if you don't want to find plays, I certainly can. Do you want try and breakdown a play I pick? I'll start off easy.

 

[JayNM]

1) Ok, Gronk and Hernandez? Good pick. But you do not mention what was so innovative about this. Why did defenses struggle vs those two? This is an easy question. Hint: Think run vs. pass.

Ha, obrigado. Essa não era parte da sua pergunta condescente ainda, seu monte de merda.

2) You are comparing how Baltimore uses TEs to how NE wanted to use Bennett and Gronk. But these two are very, very different. Lamarr Jackson broke out while using heavy formations for use of the triple option. (it's more H & F in the backfiels along with TE). But they haven't been nearly as successful in recent years because they need to be more pass oriented. NE never had that problem.

Eu sabia que o tradutor ia te dificultar aqui.

You are wrong in your understanding of my original statement good sir, please ask for clarification, if anything is outside your reach. "isso" refered to the formet statement, not the latter, so i was talking about our HernanGronk duo from the get go.

Why did Ido that, just see you spouting more and more about things that arent on the subject.

4) I already completely shot down your point on the Patriots not "being geared" towards trips/bunch formations. They use trips all the time.

Cool. Never part of anything i said. Trips was an example.

3) Hey, if you don't want to find plays, I certainly can. Do you want try and breakdown a play I pick? I'll start off easy.

Do it. But lets make it fair.

Find someone I agree with to be a judge

Then we see how well we grade a play

What do you think, hot shot?

 

[raduray]

Ill admit that i did not know that.

I truly loved the old system, for what is worth, even if it was limited

Ironic seeing as how you were complaining about Steve B being too infused with legacy thinking

 

[raduray]

Here's the thing:

If you're a company dominating a market, the goal is to keep a continuing philosophical culture. When you're a company like Apple or Amazon, you want to make sure everyone is following established processes that are working. You want to train your own people based on your own business culture. As long as you're on top, the goal is continuing to replicate a winning formula. That worked for the Patriots for many years, developing their own people and promoting internally.

As so often happens, a shift happens in every company that dominates a market. Sometimes it's gradual, and sometimes it's sudden. But the company realizes that it's no longer on the cutting edge of innovation. The philosophies that worked for a long time, no longer seem to work. And even worse, it seems that all of the top people merely echo the same concepts that worked in the past. Everyone merely becomes "a yes man" and tells the leader he's right to go back to those same exact ideas that made them successful, and the problem is always identified as the people or personnel not properly carrying out the code; the leader, having hired and taught these people that same philosophy, doesn't see the blind spots.

This is why bringing in external people at high levels of the organization, and bringing in coordinators and assistants from other teams, is essential for the Patriots. They need to be challenged and adapt. It doesn't mean they need to change everything and that everything they're doing is stupid. I don't think anyone can look at this team and think the coaches are buffoons. But they're clearly not innovative like they used to be. And they're not going to get innovative when all of their coaches were brought up in an environment where you build a team a certain way, coach a certain way, and are unable to think outside the box. This isn't just a gameplan thing...it carries over to the entire culture, personnel decisions, and the draft.

Great analysis. Reminiscent of DEC, which overtook IBM by introducing smaller and more nimble computers, missing the boat on PC's which were even smaller and more nimble.

 

[JayNM]

That's a really good point and can lead to stagnation. OTOH, haven't all our other coordinators been home grown?

AFAIK, it has been the culture around here since BB entered. Which works way better when you are on top, ofc

Now that our biggest contingency is gone (Brady), its a lot easier to see the cracks

 

[Shockt327]

Ha, thank you. That wasn't part of your condescending question yet, you piece of ****.

I knew the translator would make it difficult for you here.

You are wrong in your understanding of my original statement good sir, please ask for clarification, if anything is outside your reach. "isso" referred to the formet statement, not the latter, so I was talking about our HernanGronk duo from the get go.

Why did Ido that, just see you spouting more and more about things that aren't on the subject.

Cool. Never part of anything i said. Trips was an example.

Do it b1tch. But lets make it fair.

Find someone I agree with to be a judge

Then we see how well we grade a play

What do you think, hot shot de merda? Still need a translator for that word?

1) Tell me what makes Gronk and Hernandez so hard for opposing defenses. This is so easy, and you do not know.

2) I have no idea what you are saying. You quote the word "isso" do you mean "ISO"?

3) You said the Pats do not run Trips because of their system; they run it all the time.

4) We don't need a judge because I'm going to ask you the most basic questions that are pass/fail. 99% of fans have no clue about Xs and Os. But they don't act like know-it-alls. You do.


OK, let start off super easy....

1) Just give me a name for either of these basic pass concepts. I will accept multiple names.

But hey, football has no universal language. If you cannot answer the above at least answer the below.

2) Then, tell me how each one on beats a typical Cover 3 Defense.

3) Tell me how either one beats Quarters .

***Bonus*** Tell me how defenses adjusted the rules of cover 3 for the 1st image.
***Bonus*** Tell me how defenses adjusted the rules of cover 3 from the 2nd image.
HINT: Both are Bill Belichick in Cleveland.

 

[JayNM]

1) Tell me what makes Gronk and Hernandez so hard for opposing defenses. This is so easy, and you do not know.

2) I have no idea what you are saying. You quote the word "isso" do you mean "ISO"?

3) You said the Pats do not run Trips because of their system; they run it all the time.

4) We don't need a judge because I'm going to ask you the most basic questions that are pass/fail. 99% of fans have no clue about Xs and Os. But they don't act like know-it-alls. You do.


OK, let start off super easy....

1) Just give me a name for either of these basic pass concepts. I will accept multiple names.

But hey, football has no universal language. If you cannot answer the above at least answer the below.

2) Then, tell me how each one on beats a typical Cover 3 Defense.

3) Tell me how either one beats Quarters .

***Bonus*** to question 2: Tell me how defenses adjusted the rules of cover 3.
***Bonus*** to question 2: Tell me how defenses adjusted the rules of cover 4.
HINT: Both are Bill Belichick in Cleveland.

Back to being condescending and avoid direct statements huh

Buddy, you dont make the rules. I dont need to answer **** too you lol

I will stay put. Find a judge, unbiased, lets make it official.

Otherwise ill make u some football x and os question, and u have to answer back in Portuguese (u can even pick another language, if u want)?

What do you say? Wanna go full rounds?

 

[Shockt327]

I'm sorry, dude but this is absolutely laughable, I'm giving you one of the easiest and most common passing concepts across all of football. Really, this is me throwing underhand to you and you are still too afraid to swing away.

Really, you'll see this concept in every playbook in college and NFL (its in MADDEN!). I won't even nitpick your answer. And I would honestly be surprised if you knew either of the bonus questions, too.

Honestly, just tell me the name of the concept.

 

[Shockt327]

Pick who ever you want to "judge," I bet they know nothing just like you.


EDIT: Better yet, find a "judge" who can actually identify the 2 plays I just listed.