OT: Official 2020 Tompa Bay Gronkaneers Thread

[Deus Irae]

I find fans in forums to be a lot more knowledgeable than people in mainstream media.

Fans actually watch the games and study the roster. Mediots only spew garbage to generate clicks.

It's rare to find a sports journalist writing without an agenda.

I've learned a lot more about strategies and formations on this forum alone, than I've ever learned reading a news outlet.

Obviously you must find value as well, otherwise why spend even a minute here if it's nothing but random, silly, and stupid ideas?

I didn't say it was nothing but random, silly, and stupid ideas. I said they took a stupid idea and ran with it. Brate's not a blocking TE and is not some kind of an elite pass catching TE either, and Howard was considered by many to be an injury prone disappointment, so some Bucs fans were fine with moving on from either of them. The Patriots needed a TE, so Patriots fans were loving the idea of Howard. But "People thought it was a foregone conclusion that getting Gronk meant one of OJ or Brate is gone." is just silly.


Also, I find it amusing that you're essentially claiming that these were luxury moves, because the Bucs going after Gronk, AB, and Fournette were all classic BB moves. Gronk was a textbook example of BB bringing in a distressed property to help with the numbers game (i.e. adding another "throw it against the wall" element) in the hopes of buttressing a questionable area (In fact, Gronk 2020 was basically AB 2019, though Belichick would probably feel that the 4th round pick for Gronk was an overpay). AB 2020 was a textbook example of grabbing a high ceiling piece at a bargain basement price to add depth and improve the front line at the same time. Fournette was a textbook example of gambling on a former high pick because the price was right and the position was one of need.

But none of those were a luxury move. The closest to such would have been AB, but he was a mid-season addition brought in because of injuries to the WR corps.

 

[AlexB]

Brate isn't an elite #1 TE no, but he is still a solid TE. He is worlds better than any TE on the Patriots roster the last couple years, so yes he is a starter quality TE. Not elite but solid.

You don't pay 6.5mil to a third string TE that won't see many snaps unless the rest of the roster is solid. Which TB's roster was solid. Clearly it was otherwise they don't win the Superbowl.

Brate is an okay TE, but I definitely wouldn't call him a solid starter. Patriots had the worst TE group last year, so a lot of people would be considered a "starter" by that logic. If Brate himself thinks he's a quality starter, he probably doesn't agree to take a salary paycut from $6 million to $4.25 million last year to stay with the Bucs. If he thinks he can get a starting gig somewhere else, he probably asks to be cut and then tries to gets a multiyear deal with guaranteed money. He's in a bad negotiating position again this year due to the lack of guaranteed money.

 

[gobesmug]

Brate is an okay TE, but I definitely wouldn't call him a solid starter. Patriots had the worst TE group last year, so a lot of people would be considered a "starter" by that logic. If Brate himself thinks he's a quality starter, he probably doesn't agree to take a salary paycut from $6 million to $4.25 million last year to stay with the Bucs. If he thinks he can get a starting gig somewhere else, he probably asks to be cut and then tries to gets a multiyear deal with guaranteed money. He's in a bad negotiating position again this year due to the lack of guaranteed money.

Everyone is pretty excited about Hunter Henry.

Hunter Henry's best season was 650 yards with 5 TDs.

Cameron Brate. 660 yards with 8 TDs. He also followed that up with 590 yards and 6 TDs the following season.

After that his numbers took a hit when OJ was drafted

No I'm not saying Brate is as good as Henry, so don't play that angle.

But Brate is solid when used as the #1 TE. Nothing spectacular, but definitely solid. Freaks like Gronk and Kelce that put up over 1,000 yards and 10+TDs are extremely rare at TE.

Brate took a slight pay cut last year with incentives that could have earned him the same amount. He wanted to play with Brady.

Do you remember when Edelman took a huge below market contract to stay with NE? Players sometimes do that because they love organization and area and would rather make a little less.

 

[Tony2046]

I have a question for everyone - was Brady winning with Tampa more impactful to his overall legacy than the 28-3 comeback?
Someone asked me that today and I had to really think. I think Tampa is more impactful only because all of his other accomplishments were always going to be rolled up to Bill even 28-3. But man, that comeback is historic on so many levels and really did cement him at the time as the undisputed GOAT.

In my opinion, the win with TB is huge. It separated his legacy from Belichick's. It separated him from the "system QB" BS.

Super Bowl 51 enhanced his accomplishments but his win with TB put him in the stratosphere.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

listI have a question for everyone - was Brady winning with Tampa more impactful to his overall legacy than the 28-3 comeback?
Someone asked me that today and I had to really think. I think Tampa is more impactful only because all of his other accomplishments were always going to be rolled up to Bill even 28-3. But man, that comeback is historic on so many levels and really did cement him at the time as the undisputed GOAT.

The way I see it, you're right. Super Bowl 55 might not have been Brady's greatest legacy game (SB49 and SB51), but there's also no Super Bowl that, if removed, would have a greater impact than removing the SB55 victory. It's hard to believe because of the chronological order, but winning with another team, at age 43, in an opposite system and culture, can't be overstated. If you were to name, in order, which of the Super Bowls are most important to his legacy by themselves, SB55 would be #1 or #2 along with his best Patriots Super Bowl. You could take away Super Bowl 51 and keep Super Bowl 55, and it's a stronger resume than taking away SB55 and keeping SB51.

 

[Deus Irae]

I have a question for everyone - was Brady winning with Tampa more impactful to his overall legacy than the 28-3 comeback?
Someone asked me that today and I had to really think. I think Tampa is more impactful only because all of his other accomplishments were always going to be rolled up to Bill even 28-3. But man, that comeback is historic on so many levels and really did cement him at the time as the undisputed GOAT.

Here is your answer:

 

[Joker]

The biggest impactful win of Brady's career was the first Super Bowl win. Period.

 

[VectorPrime]

49 was the most important for a huge amount of reasons that don’t need to be explained. I’ve gone into it in another post but Butlers interception is very likely the difference between going 6-3 with the Pats or falling to 3-3 and the shock of losing another last minute heart breaker after 10 years without a title might have been too much to ever come back from.

 

[Tony2046]

49 was the most important for a huge amount of reasons that don’t need to be explained. I’ve gone into it in another post but Butlers interception is very likely the difference between going 6-3 with the Pats or falling to 3-3 and the shock of losing another last minute heart breaker after 10 years without a title might have been too much to ever come back from.

Definitely a huge win. There are two wins that created the largest reactions at our Super Bowl parties. SB 36 and SB 49. Both were amazing but for different reasons.

We didn't have a super bowl party for the TB super bowl but everyone I know was happy for him and understood the legacy implications.

Personally I'd rank 36 as #1. It was just unbelievable. But I understand why some would choose 49.

 

[Tony2046]

The biggest impactful win of Brady's career was the first Super Bowl win. Period.

"What Tom Brady just did gives me goosebumps"

 

[RIpats88]

49 was the most important for a huge amount of reasons that don’t need to be explained. I’ve gone into it in another post but Butlers interception is very likely the difference between going 6-3 with the Pats or falling to 3-3 and the shock of losing another last minute heart breaker after 10 years without a title might have been too much to ever come back from.

People quickly are forgetting the narrative that was around before 49. Brady hadn't won in a decade and it was "can he get it done" If they lost he would've been 3-3 and those questions would've gotten louder. Also, winning 49 set off the 2nd dynasty to get to 6 rings.

 

[Lansdowne]

The original question asked whether the win for 49 or 51 was bigger for Brady’s legacy, and it’s hard to quantify because both wins were vital to his overall narrative. 36 was huge overall for many reasons (biggest Super Bowl underdog in history at the time, the sheer magic of the season that led to that point, the fact Boston sports were in a 17-year title drought that started when Bird’s back problems caught up with him, etc.) I think the general public may view 28-3 as the most iconic Brady victory due to the level of difficulty it took to pull it off, but I could be wrong.

The sheer insanity and dumb luck of some of those catches in the Super Bowl that went against the Patriots, for five straight Super Bowls too. Helmet catch. Manningham’s sideline catch. The aptly named Kearse’s catch. Julio’s catch. Clements’ catch that wasn’t a catch by the rulebook that season until the league arbitrarily changed the rule during the Super Bowl without telling anybody ahead of time. It took miracles on the Pats’ part (Butler’s pick, the entire comeback effort including Edelman’s incredible catch) just to prevent that from being five consecutive Super Bowl losses.

 

[RIpats88]

The original question asked whether the win for 49 or 51 was bigger for Brady’s legacy, and it’s hard to quantify because both wins were vital to his overall narrative. 36 was huge overall for many reasons (biggest Super Bowl underdog in history at the time, the sheer magic of the season that led to that point, the fact Boston sports were in a 17-year title drought that started when Bird’s back problems caught up with him, etc.) I think the general public may view 28-3 as the most iconic Brady victory due to the level of difficulty it took to pull it off, but I could be wrong.

The sheer insanity and dumb luck of some of those catches in the Super Bowl that went against the Patriots, for five straight Super Bowls too. Helmet catch. Manningham’s sideline catch. The aptly named Kearse’s catch. Julio’s catch. Clements’ catch that wasn’t a catch by the rulebook that season until the league arbitrarily changed the rule during the Super Bowl without telling anybody ahead of time. It took miracles on the Pats’ part (Butler’s pick, the entire comeback effort including Edelman’s incredible catch) just to prevent that from being five consecutive Super Bowl losses.

I think 49 silenced the noise, and 51 put him over the top. Ring #6 and Ring #7 were just gravy.

if anything, ring #7 just dispels the notion of Tom Brady being a "system QB" which was always a garbage argument. we never say Manning was a system QB because he ran the same system in Denver as the Colts.

 

[sb1]

SB49 was the most important one for Brady’s (and BB’s) legacy because we all knew what the narrative was around them leading up to that game.

Super Bowl 55 cinched that the Patriots and Brady won all those Super Bowls because they really were great and had the GOAT for all those years... not because of any other reason like a “system”, they cheated, refs, luck, or anything like that.

 

[NYCPATS4LIFE]

Could AB go to the ravens? Talk about going from first to worse. I can’t wait for his first blow- up. I would like to know the dollars involved here.

 

[gobesmug]

Could AB go to the ravens? Talk about going from first to worse. I can’t wait for his first blow- up. I would like to know the dollars involved here.

I think he chooses the most money, unless the difference is a few fundred thousand.

He lost Millions acting like a fool in Oakland. He might have loved playing with Brady last year, but no way it hasn't sunk in on him how much he has lost.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Social media is so weird. Calling people and then telling them "they're busy and will call them back" is a new thing.

 

[amfootball]

The original question asked whether the win for 49 or 51 was bigger for Brady’s legacy, and it’s hard to quantify because both wins were vital to his overall narrative. 36 was huge overall for many reasons (biggest Super Bowl underdog in history at the time, the sheer magic of the season that led to that point, the fact Boston sports were in a 17-year title drought that started when Bird’s back problems caught up with him, etc.) I think the general public may view 28-3 as the most iconic Brady victory due to the level of difficulty it took to pull it off, but I could be wrong.

The sheer insanity and dumb luck of some of those catches in the Super Bowl that went against the Patriots, for five straight Super Bowls too. Helmet catch. Manningham’s sideline catch. The aptly named Kearse’s catch. Julio’s catch. Clements’ catch that wasn’t a catch by the rulebook that season until the league arbitrarily changed the rule during the Super Bowl without telling anybody ahead of time. It took miracles on the Pats’ part (Butler’s pick, the entire comeback effort including Edelman’s incredible catch) just to prevent that from being five consecutive Super Bowl losses.

The question I asked was whether SB 51 (28-3 comeback) was bigger to Brady's legacy than SB 55, his win the Bucs. I was talking Brady's legacy not the Pats legacy. I feel it is 55 because it is win away from Bill and that has changed the narrative on his career the most. So many thought he was a product of Bill and the Pats system that winning in his first year with a team that was the poster child for losing did more for him than that amazing comeback vs Atlanta IMO.

 

[Nehalem]

The question I asked was whether SB 51 (28-3 comeback) was bigger to Brady's legacy than SB 55, his win the Bucs. I was talking Brady's legacy not the Pats legacy. I feel it is 55 because it is win away from Bill and that has changed the narrative on his career the most. So many thought he was a product of Bill and the Pats system that winning in his first year with a team that was the poster child for losing did more for him than that amazing comeback vs Atlanta IMO.

SB55 also involved going through Brees, Rodgers, and Mahomes. Quarterbacks who are probably at least top 20 of all time, and kept Mahomes from getting his 2nd consecutive ring. Whereas 20 years from now no one will care about Matt Ryan.

 

[amfootball]

Pretty cool video of all the segments after Brady won the SB.