OT: Official 2020 Tompa Bay Gronkaneers Thread

[luuked]

Anyone who is blaming Cam for all this teams struggles is a fool but if you put Cam on the Bucs I think their record and Cam's stats would be worse.

Most likely, but who knows. Also it doesn't really matter because the point of those metrics is not to compare QBs but offenses as a whole.

They should really not use QB names but team names but that would be less flashy and not bring the same user engagement.

 

[PatsBoy12]

Not sure why Shady McCoy isn't getting any snaps. He is very good catching passes out of the backfield. Injury?

I know he was injured (ankle), but my understanding was that it was minor. I don't know why they haven't been giving him looks.

Also, along those lines, why not try Vaughn at this point? He looked better than Shady and Fournette in the little playing time he received. Founette blows and I can see why the Jags just let him walk.

 

[amfootball]

Anyone who is blaming Cam for all this teams struggles is a fool but if you put Cam on the Bucs I think their record and Cam's stats would be worse.

Yeah. I feel like a lot of the stats stuff is what Colts and Jets haters used to post in the past when Brady was routinely shredding their teams. So much of what Brady does - his command at the line, pocket awareness, perfect mechanics, decision making don't sure up on the stat sheet but they lead to positive plays and wins. Just watching both QBs play is night and day.

 

[203Pat]

Yeah. I feel like a lot of the stats stuff is what Colts and Jets haters used to post in the past when Brady was routinely shredding their teams. So much of what Brady does - his command at the line, pocket awareness, perfect mechanics, decision making don't sure up on the stat sheet but they lead to positive plays and wins. Just watching both QBs play is night and day.

It really is weird to watch a QB have no idea that a free rusher is coming at him or that he is about to get hit on his blindside. Also weird to watch us come up short with the game on the line so frequently. While Brady didn't make as many highlight reel splash plays the way Mahomes does he did 100 little things every week that helped us win games consistently for 20 years. This isn't meant to be a knock on Cam just more meant as a realization that we are no longer the team we are just one of the numerous fanbases now who watches inconsistency each week.

 

[RicoG]

Lots of speculation, and certainly the Tampa coaching staff leaves a lot to be desired, but I think an under-discussed element of Brady's slippage is his arm strength.

It's so subtle, he hasn't lost a ton of velocity, and it certainly didn't happen overnight like with Manning so we don't notice the big drop, but I think his arm has been slipping a bit since 2016'ish. You get a 2-3% drop-off per season, aggregated over 4-5 years, and here we are.

What does this actually mean? Downfield throws are more challenging; his feet have to be perfect set and he needs a significant 'step-in' or the ball is underthrown. Throws outside the numbers are tougher to come by. Any kind of pressure in Brady's lap that affects his ability to step into throws will considerably impact the velocity of the ball. The overall margin for error is much smaller because the ball is arriving a split-second later.

Go watch Brady highlights from 2007. Or hell, even 2010. The ball was a rocket coming off his hand. He could flick the thing from the pocket, under pressure, without a perfect step-in, and the ball came off his hand hot. It just looked so much easier for him to throw the ball - he was an extremely talented passer to go along with his work-ethic, preparation, and intelligence. Now, he simply doesn't have the arm talent he used to. What's the drop-off? Probably 5-10%, maybe 15%, certainly not significant, but that split-second margin can make a really big difference.

Is he still the most intelligent QB in the league? Absolutely. Is his work-ethic and preparation still unmatched? Surely. Is his timing and decision making still pretty darn good? Yeah. Is he still a top-10 QB in the NFL (top-5 on a good day)? I think so. But he's 43 years old and has thrown thousands of NFL passes ... the arm just isn't what it used to be.

I think we really underrate the impact of lost arm strength - the ability to flick the ball and get it anywhere you want and on time is huge; when that goes, the margin for error shrinks and begins to place a spotlight on decision-making and timing, because you don't have a live arm to open up the margin for error. It's not just the arm strength itself -- it's the trickle down impact that has on everything else.

I still think Tom can win and compete at a high-level in his current condition, but it won't be under a myopic coach like Arians, passing the ball down the field 40 times per game. Setting aside their offensive talent, from a coaching/scheme perspective Tampa was one of the worst fits for Tom at this stage of his career. He should've stayed in New England, accepted 2020 as bridge season, and got ready for a final 2-3 year push from 2021-2023 with their salary space.

I agree but relationship is a two way street. Yes, it seemed like Brady wanted to see if the grass was greener on the other side. But the coaches gave him the meh treatment as if he is just a JAG.

What we will never know is if they have given him the Goat treatment like Brees has been given. Which is job security to retire when he is ready and an all in commitment to win now. If Brady was given this, would he have stayed?

 

[RicoG]

When Arians will understand Brady strength maybe they can win something. They have the perfect combination of talent. Guys that can beat man coverage on the outside and speedy guy that can do damage in the slots and the middle of the fields. Brady strength is the middle of the field, not consistently throw deep ball on the outside.

like Luuked said there is no cohesion at all in the gameplan. It’s a bunch of plays stack together.

there has to be some friction between Brady and Arians. The reaction Brady had after the second picks was telling. I thought it was the typical: I didn’t want this play Bruce, you did and look what’s happened.

They need to do like with Manning in 13. They need to tell Tom, it’s your show, we’ll play with your offense.

Yup. That seems to be the problem and the solution to the problem. Anyone has a direct link to Arians so that he can learn something from these NE Tompa Gronkaneer fans. The insight on this thread is incredible.

 

[RicoG]

It really is weird to watch a QB have no idea that a free rusher is coming at him or that he is about to get hit on his blindside. Also weird to watch us come up short with the game on the line so frequently. While Brady didn't make as many highlight reel splash plays the way Mahomes does he did 100 little things every week that helped us win games consistently for 20 years. This isn't meant to be a knock on Cam just more meant as a realization that we are no longer the team we are just one of the numerous fanbases now who watches inconsistency each week.

Yeah, it's a frustrating season.

You have NE, that does many things right. But they don't have the talent so loses close games.

You have TB, that has the talent. But they do many things wrong and so loses close games.

Many of us forsaw this for both teams.

 

[RicoG]

Honestly how f**king terrible is Arians, Belichick gave Brady these guys and he won 3 out of 4 SBs and in the 1 loss set SB records.

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Weird how Belichick got Brady guys that could do what he needed. Got Arians over here with 3 All-Pro WRs and he's f**king clueless. Some "offensive mastermind"

Belichick allowed the short white " little engines that could" play. While Arians benched the only guy who was consistently catching deep balls in Miller.

 

[RicoG]

I love TB12 but I have to admit seeing him struggle a bit validates BB's decision to start the rebuild now.

I

Disagree cause outside of NE and possibly the Chiefs for now, winning a Superbowl is hard. Brady is still slinging it short and middle but he is being asked to chuck it deep too much. Outside of 2007, that has never been his strength.

If a team don't go for a chance at the playoffs, thus chance for SB. It could be decades until the next chance comes again.

Just look at the Bill's back in 19××, they benched their starting Qb in Flutie that took them to the playoff before their 1st playoff game for their Qb of the future in RobJohnson. He played bad, the Bill's lost, and didn't make a playoff for close to 2 decades.

Rebuilding is easy and can be done anytime, over and over and over like the Lions and the Browns.

 

[RicoG]

No kidding. Brady is having a top 3 season of his career and struggles a bit against one of the top defenses in the league that held Wilson to 16 points. The Bucs are a very good team. They will most likely be a wild card and their success in the playoffs largely depends on who they draw as an opponent in the first round. That being said, Brady is having an amazing season for a 43 year old QB in a brand new system with no off-season. I realize we judge him by perfection because he was always so perfect but this season and all he has had to navigate has been tremendous. And he still has 4 easy games to end the season with and a bye which should help him and the team get more in sync.

Yes, all true, but still Brady has underperformed in large part due to the coaching and play calling. It's the easiest thing to fix and I hope they fix it.

 

[moosekill]

Last season, Brady developed tennis elbow as the season progressed and it bothered his throwing, especially longer throws. I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere but there is certainly the possibility that it is bothering him again, or he has another minor/nagging type injury that he is playing through.

 

[amfootball]

Yes, all true, but still Brady has underperformed in large part due to the coaching and play calling. It's the easiest thing to fix and I hope they fix it.

Things never go perfect especially in season #1 when there was no off-season. I too hope they can fix things but sometimes that is easier said than done. Hard to believe we think Brady is underperforming with what he has done this season at age 43 but I suppose that is the standard he has set.

 

[moosekill]

Things never go perfect especially in season #1 when there was no off-season. I too hope they can fix things but sometimes that is easier said than done. Hard to believe we think Brady is underperforming with what he has done this season at age 43 but I suppose that is the standard he has set.

God stop drooling over the man, you are scaring us. Brady is slightly underperforming based upon how he has played in the past. People like you spent all off season and most of this season telling us how amazing he was and how stupid the Patriots were for letting him go and he had 2-3 years left being amazing, and he was going to be an all pro and mvp etc. Many of us thought he would do fine and possibly amazing but also realized he is 43. Any of us who mentioned we should wait until the end of the season before we crowned him MVP were idiots and didn't know anything about football. He may well still take the Bucs to the superbowl, but he certainly doesn't look quite as good right now as he did in the past.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Belichick allowed the short white " little engines that could" play. While Arians benched the only guy who was consistently catching deep balls in Miller.

Yeah, what's up with that? I thought Tommy Boy had his timing down pat with Miller.

 

[scout]

Things never go perfect especially in season #1 when there was no off-season. I too hope they can fix things but sometimes that is easier said than done. Hard to believe we think Brady is underperforming with what he has done this season at age 43 but I suppose that is the standard he has set.

It is remarkable what Brady is doing at 43. Although, we need to put that age in a separate category. When we measure the league's QBs' we do not rate performances based on past performances or current ages. Is Brady underperforming this year.

 

[amfootball]

It is remarkable what Brady is doing at 43. Although, we need to put that age in a separate category. When we measure the league's QBs' we do not rate performances based on past performances or current ages. Is Brady underperforming this year.

Statistically he is top 5 in all the major passing categories. He has the most big time throws of 20+ yards second only to Wilson. PFF ranked him as the 3rd best QB behind Mahomes and Rodgers. I don't understand how he is underperforming by any metric.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

It is remarkable what Brady is doing at 43. Although, we need to put that age in a separate category. When we measure the league's QBs' we do not rate performances based on past performances or current ages. Is Brady underperforming this year.

Older QBs struggle as their shoulders weaken later in the season. We see that with all older QBs, Brees, Manning, etc. At this point Brady can not consistently complete a pass in a game over 20 yards (he completes all of his 20+ yard passes in practice if you believe Arians ). This is normal, not a criticism. Tampa Bay has to adjust. If passes over 20+ yards are infrequent and challenging, the opposing D will sneak up and squish inward to take away the middle of the field and the running game. Again this is normal, not a criticism. Again Tampa Bay has to adjust.

With Manning we saw Denver lean on its defense. I doubt the Tampa Bay's defense is going to win 3 post-season games and a Super Bowl. So what to do? Shorter quick timing passes, more running, screens, sweeps and trick plays will help generate offense, but will Byron and Bruce coordinate that with Tom? I have my doubts. Tampa has a tough game this week but four easier games after that so they should get to the playoffs. After that it will be 1 or 2 and out IMO.

 

[sb1]

Statistically he is top 5 in all the major passing categories. He has the most big time throws of 20+ yards second only to Wilson. PFF ranked him as the 3rd best QB behind Mahomes and Rodgers. I don't understand how he is underperforming by any metric.

If you buy into QBR, that has him at #15 (70.3). In passer rating he is #17.

Whether he's "underperforming" depends on your expectations for the guy. I said he would do well in TB and he is, so I don't think he's underperforming. If someone said he would win MVP this year then he probably is to them.

 

[amfootball]

If you buy into QBR, that has him at #15 (70.3). In passer rating he is #17.

Whether he's "underperforming" depends on your expectations for the guy. I said he would do well in TB and he is, so I don't think he's underperforming. If someone said he would win MVP this year then he probably is to them.

Yeah. I mean MVP at 43 is pretty outrageous especially on a new team. Although most analysts had him at 4 or 5 in the MVP race prior to the second Saints game.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Statistically he is top 5 in all the major passing categories. He has the most big time throws of 20+ yards second only to Wilson. PFF ranked him as the 3rd best QB behind Mahomes and Rodgers. I don't understand how he is underperforming by any metric.

Just like the Patriots were 8-0 in the first half of the 2019 season, and 4 -4 over the last four games, their defense was ranked 1st in points allowed. But if you eliminate the first 8 cupcake games, the defensive stats more closely represent what we saw in the playoffs. Similarly if you look at Brady's stats over the last four games he is not building and getting better as the season wears on. Older QBs tend to struggle with their accuracy and longer throws as the season wears on. So to answer your question, look at how the metrics change as the season progresses, not the cumulative metrics.