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OT- How good is Peyton Manning all time?

Fair enough, but should Belichick's assertion that Paul Brown is the greatest coach in football history also be put into perspective by that logic?
When it comes to Paul Brown and being the greatest coach in football history has to do not just with winning, his innovations and coaching tree was insane. His two biggest innovations were inventing the playbook and using game film to scout opponents. His coaching tree had Chuck Noll, Don Shula, and Bud Grant among others. That's literally just scratching the surface with Paul Brown.
 
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Otto Graham's QBrating dropped by 30pts after switching leagues between the 1949-1950 season.

Talking about Graham's AAFC performance is like talking about Kurt Warner's Arena league performance.
Yeah I mentioned the AAFC was vastly inferior to the NFL.
 
Another excuse made is his team often let him down. This is simply not the case the vast majority of the time. When you pay offensive players big contracts it naturally takes away from defense. So if you have a stacked offense (including OL) but your defense isn't great you are simply complaining for having to deal with the cap like everyone else.

Looking a bit deeper at this, just regarding the playoffs, here are his QB ratings in the games he lost. Now, it's tough to evaluate just on that, so I'll try to put some of them in context.

62.3 - Final score 19-16, opponent Titans averaged 24.5ppg in the regular season, Defense recovered fumble late in game which gave Manning an extra chance (Colts scored) to make the game close. Manning completed less than 50% of his passes. Defense was not the problem.

82.0 - Final score 23-17, opponent Dolphins scored 20.2 ppg in the regular season, 3 Dolphins turnovers (3 ints in 3 straigh drives) to 0 Colts turnovers, Manning threw for fewer than 200 yards. The 3 INTs led to 11 of the 17 Colts points, as the offense took over on the Miami 25 and 18 on the two scores. Defense was not the problem.

31.3 - 'nuff said, I think

35.5 - 'nuff said, the sequel

69.3 Final score 20-3, opponent Patriots scored 27.3ppg in the regular season, Colts offense turned the ball over 3 times. Defense was not the problem.

So, of Peyton's first five playoff losses, zero were because his defense let him down. I'll address some more in a followup post.
 
To continue:

90.9 - Final score 21-18, opponent Steelers scored 24.3ppg in the regular season, the Colts had 0 turnovers in the game, the Steelers turned the ball over twice in the game, Colts plays per drive were 3/3/5/3/15/6/3/6/6/4/5. Not the defense's fault.

97.7 - Final score 28-24, opponent Chargers scored 25.8ppg in the regular season, Colts committed 3 turnovers (2 INTs) in the game., Manning was picked off at the SD11 and in the SD endzone, costing his team a likely 10 points minimum. This one's a much closer call then the previous losses, and the defense gave up 4 drives of 74+ yards for TDs, but Manning pissed away 10 easy points in a 4 point loss, against a high scoring opponent. In the end, you can't blame the defense for that loss, although you can certainly call it out for a share of it.

90.4 - Final score 23-17, opponent Chargers scored 27.4ppg in the regular season, Chargers committed the game's only 2 turnovers, 3 of the 4 Chargers' scoring drives started in Colts' territory, Manning threw for 310, but the Colts running game generated only 64 yards on 22 carries. You can't blame the Colts defense for that, either.

88.5 - Final score 31-17, opponent Saints scored 31.9ppg in the regular season, Peyton throws for 333 yards, but only goes 1/1 TD/INT and the INT is the only turnover of the game (at the Saints 26) and ended any chance of a comeback. This is the onsides kick game, and the Colts had the lead going into thee 4th quarter, but Peyton couldn't get it done (Drive stalled, and FG missed, at the NO 33, drive ends in pick at the NO26, Drive ends on downs at the NO5). The defense certainly didn't do a lot to help, but Peyton came up empty on three 4th quarter drives that got inside the NO 35, and the onsides kick recovery was a key to that game. You can't blame that on the Colts defense.

108.7 - Final score 17-16, opponent Jets scored 22.9ppg in the regular season, this is the Sanchez game after the Jets took down the Patriots (2010). The only turnover of the game was lost by the Jets, Manning went 18 for 26, but only got 225 yards out of that and, on their last 3 drives of the game, the Colts had to settle from FGs that were from the Jets 29, 14 and 32, because the offense couldn't finish the drives. You can't blame that on the Colts defense.

88.3 - Final score 38-35 (Manning now a Bronco), opponent Ravens scored 24.9ppg in the regular season, the game ended on a FG in overtime that was set up by a Manning pick in Broncos territory. This is the game where Flacco did the wing and a prayer throw to Jacoby Jones that tied the game at the end of regulation. Manning also threw a pick-6 in this game. This is a game where the defense definitely contributed to the loss, but Peyton directly gifted 7 points, and indirectly gifted the game winning 3 points to the Ravens, as well.

73.5 - Seattle SB, blown shotgun snap and the game was already over. Peyton wet himself when the pressure was on. That's not on the defense.

75.5 - Final score 24-13, opponent Colts scored 28.6ppg in the regular season, Peyton had 46 attempts for just 211 yards and had a fumble which led to a Colts TD. Broncos defense forced 2 INTs of Luck, but Peyton & Co. still managed only 13 points. That's not on the defense.

And, remember, in the 2006 run, Manning's best QB rating was 81.8, yet the team managed to win 4 and get the SB, because he rode the his defense to the title. Even in his 2015 run, his QB ratings were 74.4/90.1/56.6, and he had only 2 passing TDs (and 1 INT) in the 3 games, while his defense force 7 turnovers in that same stretch.

I think that says pretty much all there is to say about the "Manning's defense let him down!" angle.
 
He played the Patriots a lot less because he's in the NFC so that's not an apples to oranges comparison.

Rodgers general lack of comebacks, period, is a valid criticism though.

Rodgers has been a WAY BETTER postseason QB than Peyton though. He actually played well for most of his Super Bowl run, and had a great game in Super Bowl XLV against the #1 scoring defense in football. He has a better postseason win % and TD-INT ratio than Peyton by miles.

In high-leverage situations Rodgers is no Brady, but he has shown the ability to completely dominate in big games at least sometimes, which Peyton never did. Peyton was a bus driver against the Bears and just sucked against the Panthers.

that's what he was saying. Manning came back in the 4th more times against the Patriots than Rodgers has against ALL TEAMS in his career.
 
Agreed - he played 10 years and took his team to 10 consecutive championships (winning seven of them) under legendary coach (and Belichick's idol) Paul Brown. he still holds a few statistical records including career win/loss record as well. The fact that he played in the pre-super bowl era works against him. I more heavily favor QBs with championships in my list (have him of Marino and Manning) and this guy has the trophies and clearly dominated his era..

There doesn't seem to be very much video footage on Otto but he looks pretty impressive from what I've seen. His accomplishments speak for themselves.
 
Start this off by saying below No 1 GOAT Brady on a list.
To me he was never clutch when it counted. He won a SB vs Bears, I could QB'd and beat Da Bears and he won a SB in Denver INSPITE of him with no HGH. Put him 2 through 10 and give him a banner for participating.

I remember reading a few top ten lists of clutch QB's that didn't have PEDton on any of them. That was back a few years ago before he won his second SB though.

There are plenty of QBs all-time that I would put ahead of Manning.
 
Top 5, but like Mike Holmgren said in the Dungy piece, poor playoffs knocks him down a peg. He did not play well in ANY super bowl, even in SB 41 when he was MVP. His only signature playoff win was against NE in 2006.

9-1&D's
 
that's what he was saying. Manning came back in the 4th more times against the Patriots than Rodgers has against ALL TEAMS in his career.

Gotcha, guess I just misread it.
 
To the question ("How good is Peyton Manning all time?"), my answer is, "pretty darn good" but not in the discussion for top three all time. Probably, but not certainly, in the discussion for top five.
 
I would put him at 3 right behind Montana and just above Marino. Because at least he was carryable in two Super Bowl runs
 
Haven't gone through this entire thread, but I'll state it this way. This is what I tell everyone who argues PM is the greatest over Brady. Peyton is the greatest REGULAR season QB ever. Playoffs, he's slightly above average. Brady has great regular season stats, but phenomenal postseason stats, therefore he's the GOAT. No QB could (or has) do(ne) what Brady did in SB 51. That game ended the discussion. I have no problem putting PM 3rd overall behind Brady and Montana.
 
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Haven't gone through this entire thread, but I'll state it this way. This is what I tell everyone who argues PM is the greatest over Brady. Peyton is the greatest REGULAR season QB ever. Playoffs, he's slightly above average. Brady has great regular season stats, but phenomenal postseason stats, therefore he's the GOAT. No QB could (or has) do(ne) what Brady did in SB 51. That game ended the discussion. I have no problem putting PM 3rd overall behind Brady and Montana.
Not sure if I'd say Manning is a better regular season qb than Brady tbh
 
Yes he is; and so is Drew Brees.

I think they are. They currently have 1 less super bowl win than him but super bowls of course aren't everything. Both were much better QBs in the playoffs than him and that is pretty clear. Also both were key drivers in those super bowl wins and played really well in those runs. You can't claim either was carried.
 
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To continue:

90.9 - Final score 21-18, opponent Steelers scored 24.3ppg in the regular season, the Colts had 0 turnovers in the game, the Steelers turned the ball over twice in the game, Colts plays per drive were 3/3/5/3/15/6/3/6/6/4/5. Not the defense's fault.

97.7 - Final score 28-24, opponent Chargers scored 25.8ppg in the regular season, Colts committed 3 turnovers (2 INTs) in the game., Manning was picked off at the SD11 and in the SD endzone, costing his team a likely 10 points minimum. This one's a much closer call then the previous losses, and the defense gave up 4 drives of 74+ yards for TDs, but Manning pissed away 10 easy points in a 4 point loss, against a high scoring opponent. In the end, you can't blame the defense for that loss, although you can certainly call it out for a share of it.

90.4 - Final score 23-17, opponent Chargers scored 27.4ppg in the regular season, Chargers committed the game's only 2 turnovers, 3 of the 4 Chargers' scoring drives started in Colts' territory, Manning threw for 310, but the Colts running game generated only 64 yards on 22 carries. You can't blame the Colts defense for that, either.

88.5 - Final score 31-17, opponent Saints scored 31.9ppg in the regular season, Peyton throws for 333 yards, but only goes 1/1 TD/INT and the INT is the only turnover of the game (at the Saints 26) and ended any chance of a comeback. This is the onsides kick game, and the Colts had the lead going into thee 4th quarter, but Peyton couldn't get it done (Drive stalled, and FG missed, at the NO 33, drive ends in pick at the NO26, Drive ends on downs at the NO5). The defense certainly didn't do a lot to help, but Peyton came up empty on three 4th quarter drives that got inside the NO 35, and the onsides kick recovery was a key to that game. You can't blame that on the Colts defense.

108.7 - Final score 17-16, opponent Jets scored 22.9ppg in the regular season, this is the Sanchez game after the Jets took down the Patriots (2010). The only turnover of the game was lost by the Jets, Manning went 18 for 26, but only got 225 yards out of that and, on their last 3 drives of the game, the Colts had to settle from FGs that were from the Jets 29, 14 and 32, because the offense couldn't finish the drives. You can't blame that on the Colts defense.

88.3 - Final score 38-35 (Manning now a Bronco), opponent Ravens scored 24.9ppg in the regular season, the game ended on a FG in overtime that was set up by a Manning pick in Broncos territory. This is the game where Flacco did the wing and a prayer throw to Jacoby Jones that tied the game at the end of regulation. Manning also threw a pick-6 in this game. This is a game where the defense definitely contributed to the loss, but Peyton directly gifted 7 points, and indirectly gifted the game winning 3 points to the Ravens, as well.

73.5 - Seattle SB, blown shotgun snap and the game was already over. Peyton wet himself when the pressure was on. That's not on the defense.

75.5 - Final score 24-13, opponent Colts scored 28.6ppg in the regular season, Peyton had 46 attempts for just 211 yards and had a fumble which led to a Colts TD. Broncos defense forced 2 INTs of Luck, but Peyton & Co. still managed only 13 points. That's not on the defense.

And, remember, in the 2006 run, Manning's best QB rating was 81.8, yet the team managed to win 4 and get the SB, because he rode the his defense to the title. Even in his 2015 run, his QB ratings were 74.4/90.1/56.6, and he had only 2 passing TDs (and 1 INT) in the 3 games, while his defense force 7 turnovers in that same stretch.

I think that says pretty much all there is to say about the "Manning's defense let him down!" angle.

You forgot to mention about the Ravens/Broncos game Peyton got 14 points from his team off 2 returns for TDs. So while his D wasn't amazing he got plenty of help from his special teams. In fact looking at it a different way with math.

In regulation the Ravens only scored 21 points offensively (maybe 18 arguably if not for the pick which set up 3 points as you said) and Manning got 14 points from his special teams. This means all Manning had to do was score more than 4-7 points in a 60 minute game as long as he didn't give any away. When put in those terms his choke here is pretty big. In a fair context it is one of his bigger chokes.
 
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Using only players who played in SB era.

1) Brady
2) Montana

After that you can go with Elway, Staubach, Bradshaw, Manning, starr in different orders.
 
I'll take five rings over "I'd rather have..." any day. When Brady is gone, they'll realize how gullible they were to believe another player can win at .778 ever again, in any era, with any coach. Brady's winning percentage and postseason records are about as unbreakable as anything in American sports. "The system" though. In other words, I have nothing left but need to get in the last word.

Theres really no denying they have a great system though. They take players and make them good. Sure its brady but its coaching and system too.
 
Using only players who played in SB era.

1) Brady
2) Montana

After that you can go with Elway, Staubach, Bradshaw, Manning, starr in different orders.

I tend to go super bowl era too. I don't know why we need to talk about pre and post 1978. The rules in the early super bowl era though more in favor of Ds were generally the same and we have video of said players. It is not like the game was still in its infancy like it was in the 30s and 40s
 
I think Brees is tremendously underrated historically. Definitely 1 of the big 4 in the modern (post 2000) era along with Brady/Manning/Rodgers.
If anyone could use the poor teams excuse, it's Brees. His defenses have been atrocious and his weapons have been on par or worse than Brady's for the most part
 
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