OT- How good is Peyton Manning all time?

[sean10mm]

Historically, winning on the Saints was like winning on the reconstituted Browns. Brees bringing them a ring was miraculous. And he was STELLAR on that Super Bowl run, 8 TD 0 INT, every game with a passer rating over 100. That Colts team he beat had a top 10 scoring defense and he dunked on them. Peyton didn't look like he belonged in the same building as Brees.

And his teams have had ATROCIOUS defenses. Even that team he won the Super Bowl with was #20 in scoring defense and #25 in yards allowed! Unlike Peyton, he actually carried the team sometimes instead of turning turtle.

 

[BobDigital]

Theres really no denying they have a great system though. They take players and make them good. Sure its brady but its coaching and system too.

Oh the system is very good. That being said I don't think the system is head and shoulders better than everyones. IMO Brady only 2 times went into the playoffs with a really really good cast. That was 2004 and 2007.

2001 - really good D. Good enough O help.. Okay WR core and average RBs. Good OL. Overall the talent around him in that unit was average at best.

2003 - A lot like 2001 but a slightly better WR core.

2004 - Having a star RB, elite D, good WRs... This was a very good all around team even without their #1 CB in the playoffs. It was loaded.

2005 - No more elite RB and WRs fell off a bit.

2006 - fairly trash O.

2007 - The D wasn't super elite but very good and the offense was outstanding. It was loaded.

2010 - Very good O (not amazing) meh D.

2011 - Elite O(but not in the super bowl with hurt Gronk), meh D

2012 - Same as 2011 with Gronk getting hurt the offense went down hill and meh D.

2013 - bad O, meh D.

2014 - Healthy and very good O (not elite cause in 2 games it was completely unable to run) and Good D (though it looked very mortal in the playoffs).

2015 - O got banged up in the AFCCG as did Talib hurting the D.

2016 - Okay O (again no Gronk hurt it) and good D.

2017 - I think this is a year he has a good chance to have his 3rd very good and complete team going into the playoffs.

So yes Brady has had good teams and a few great ones in those playoff runs be he also has managed to elevate teams that were only so-so in certain away.

Comparing him to talent other QBs have around him over a 15 or so year stretch I would bet other QBs have had similar talent. Lets looks at peyton.

He had loaded teams more than Brady. I would argue his 2005, 2006, 2007, 2012 and 2015 teams were all pretty loaded. The talent he had on those teams were fairly massive and come playoff time they were very healthy in general. He did have a bit of bad luck having a loaded team in 2007 the same year Brady had a more loaded one but still i think you have to count it.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Start this off by saying below No 1 GOAT Brady on a list.
To me he was never clutch when it counted. He won a SB vs Bears, I could QB'd and beat Da Bears and he won a SB in Denver INSPITE of him with no HGH. Put him 2 through 10 and give him a banner for participating.

Peyton's kind of a better version of Bledsoe.

With his talent and stats, I think he belongs in the top 15. Maybe the top ten.

But like you say, there are several other QB's who were tremendously clutch in the toughest situations. It's not an insult to Peyton that he's not. Nor to Elway, either.

You know the ultimate measure of a player, "if you had to win a game who would you choose..."

 

[TheFlyingWedge]

Otto Graham's QBrating dropped by 30pts after switching leagues between the 1949-1950 season.

Talking about Graham's AAFC performance is like talking about Kurt Warner's Arena league performance.

Maybe if he struggled in the NFL you would have an argument, but thats not the case.

Otto Graham's accomplishments should not be diminished because the first half of his career was spent in the AAFL. He and the Browns essentially put that league out of business because they were so laughably dominant. Graham spent the second half of his career 50'-55' in the NFL where he and the Browns went to 5 consecutive championship appearances - 3 of which were victories. Otto Graham clearly dominated the NFL.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Which 2 are you putting him ahead of

Brady
Montana
Staubach
Starr
Elway
Unitas
Graham

For me, Elway will never belong on that list.

 

[sean10mm]

The narrative that Elway dragged bums to the playoffs was always kind of bogus.

They had top 10 scoring defenses in 8 of his seasons there, including 3 in the top 5.

What's funny is that in his prime nobody saw him as one of the greatest, even ignoring his Super Bowl losses. He never made 1st team All-Pro his entire career. He hardly ever led the league in any major passing category except for yards in 1993. His regular and postseason stats were never special even accounting for era, though he wasn't a Peyton-tier postseason choker by any means.

He had a lot of regular-season comebacks, which don't get me wrong is nice, but that's kind of it stat-wise.

IMO he was overrated because he had talent and looked the part (horse teeth notwithstanding.) Still really good, but people sticking him right next to Montana or even Staubach are high IMO.

 

[Nehalem]

Maybe if he struggled in the NFL you would have an argument, but thats not the case.

Otto Graham's accomplishments should not be diminished because the first half of his career was spent in the AAFL. He and the Browns essentially put that league out of business because they were so laughably dominant. Graham spent the second half of his career 50'-55' in the NFL where he and the Browns went to 5 consecutive championship appearances - 3 of which were victories. Otto Graham clearly dominated the NFL.

Of course his defense was also ranked #1 or #2 in points allowed for all of those years. That might have something to do with those championships too.

 

[Nehalem]

So yes Brady has had good teams and a few great ones in those playoff runs be he also has managed to elevate teams that were only so-so in certain away.

Comparing him to talent other QBs have around him over a 15 or so year stretch I would bet other QBs have had similar talent. Lets looks at peyton.

He had loaded teams more than Brady. I would argue his 2005, 2006, 2007, 2012 and 2015 teams were all pretty loaded. The talent he had on those teams were fairly massive and come playoff time they were very healthy in general. He did have a bit of bad luck having a loaded team in 2007 the same year Brady had a more loaded one but still i think you have to count it.

I think you have to give him 2016 at least as loaded as well. Defense was #1 in PA. And offense was #3 in Points despite putting up 0 in the week 4 game. And most of the season was sans-Gronk.

The narrative that Elway dragged bums to the playoffs was always kind of bogus.

They had top 10 scoring defenses in 8 of his seasons there, including 3 in the top 5.

What's funny is that in his prime nobody saw him as one of the greatest, even ignoring his Super Bowl losses. He never made 1st team All-Pro his entire career. He hardly ever led the league in any major passing category except for yards in 1993. His regular and postseason stats were never special even accounting for era, though he wasn't a Peyton-tier postseason choker by any means.

He had a lot of regular-season comebacks, which don't get me wrong is nice, but that's kind of it stat-wise.

IMO he was overrated because he had talent and looked the part (horse teeth notwithstanding.) Still really good, but people sticking him right next to Montana or even Staubach are high IMO.

So he is basically the bizarro-Rodgers. Not impressive stats, but impressive comebacks.

 

[DaBronxPats14]

No knock on Elway, he had his share of comebacks and clutch circus type heaves to his credit in 'Reg Season' But with that said it was Terrell Davis that put him over in those SB wins.
Elway should "Salute " him.

 

[captain stone]

I tend to go super bowl era too. I don't know why we need to talk about pre and post 1978. The rules in the early super bowl era though more in favor of Ds were generally the same and we have video of said players. It is not like the game was still in its infancy like it was in the 30s and 40s

The Offensive Holding rules were relaxed significantly, and the Defensive Pass Interference rules were tightened significantly, after the 1978 season; thus the
reason that many people, especially when comparing QBs, use 1978 as a before
and after benchmark.

 

[BobDigital]

The Offensive Holding rules were relaxed significantly, and the Defensive Pass Interference rules were tightened significantly, after the 1978 season; thus the
reason that many people, especially when comparing QBs, use 1978 as a before
and after benchmark.

Yes but we are not judging stats we are judging QBs. Stats are part of the equation but we can easily put them into context in that era and use the eyeball test as well.

 

[captain stone]

Then why stop at 1966?

 

[PatsSox363804]

Historically, winning on the Saints was like winning on the reconstituted Browns. Brees bringing them a ring was miraculous. And he was STELLAR on that Super Bowl run, 8 TD 0 INT, every game with a passer rating over 100. That Colts team he beat had a top 10 scoring defense and he dunked on them. Peyton didn't look like he belonged in the same building as Brees.

And his teams have had ATROCIOUS defenses. Even that team he won the Super Bowl with was #20 in scoring defense and #25 in yards allowed! Unlike Peyton, he actually carried the team sometimes instead of turning turtle.

The 09 Saints had a very opportunistic defense, they always seemed to make the key play when it mattered whether it was Tracy porter twice in the playoffs or Darren Sharper taking time off from his busy rape schedule to play some football, he was key for them.

Brees though..man his defense has let him down most years. 2011 really stands out. He gives them the lead with 1:36 left in the divisional round vs San Francisco. SF starts at their 15 yard line and the defense lets them go 85 yards led by Alex smith to lose the game. That team probably wins the Super Bowl if they hold that lead because they had the Giants number and they would have been home for the NFC title game and I don't think we beat them in a dome with that defense in the super bowl. I'm glad that didn't happen because I'd never hear the end of it down here, but The point is that Brees is really the guy who has been let down by his D, not Manning.

 

[lancerman]

1. Brady

2. Montana

3. Manning

4. Unitas

5. Marino

 

[Simpelton]

Oh the system is very good. That being said I don't think the system is head and shoulders better than everyones. IMO Brady only 2 times went into the playoffs with a really really good cast. That was 2004 and 2007.

2001 - really good D. Good enough O help.. Okay WR core and average RBs. Good OL. Overall the talent around him in that unit was average at best.

2003 - A lot like 2001 but a slightly better WR core.

2004 - Having a star RB, elite D, good WRs... This was a very good all around team even without their #1 CB in the playoffs. It was loaded.

2005 - No more elite RB and WRs fell off a bit.

2006 - fairly trash O.

2007 - The D wasn't super elite but very good and the offense was outstanding. It was loaded.

2010 - Very good O (not amazing) meh D.

2011 - Elite O(but not in the super bowl with hurt Gronk), meh D

2012 - Same as 2011 with Gronk getting hurt the offense went down hill and meh D.

2013 - bad O, meh D.

2014 - Healthy and very good O (not elite cause in 2 games it was completely unable to run) and Good D (though it looked very mortal in the playoffs).

2015 - O got banged up in the AFCCG as did Talib hurting the D.

2016 - Okay O (again no Gronk hurt it) and good D.

2017 - I think this is a year he has a good chance to have his 3rd very good and complete team going into the playoffs.

So yes Brady has had good teams and a few great ones in those playoff runs be he also has managed to elevate teams that were only so-so in certain away.

OK I have to say it -- that's incredibly unrealistic. As a rule the Patriots have had one of the top 5 overall rosters in the league every year since 2003. Yes Brady elevates that roster from "among the best" to "best in the world," and that's to his credit, but every team in the goddamned league had some flaw to point out that was equal to or worse than anything you're suggesting, in every single one of those years. That's what the cap era is all about, there is no such thing as a perfect football team.

The system has given Brady enough to compete with and make playoff runs with year after year after year after year after year, and that's literally all they're here to do. That's "their job" if you will. And they do that job head and shoulders better than anyone else in the NFL.

Hell, they nearly got Matt Cassel into the playoffs.

I get the need not to take anything from Brady, but you don't need to crap on the Patriots system to do that.

 

[fair catch fryar]

I put Manning 4th or 5th all time. His individual stats are undeniable. Also, the amount of audibles and control over the offense he had was unheard of before him, he really went towards revolutionizing the position in that aspect. And he does have some post season success, even with an overall spotty at best postseason career.

At his best, he's Dan Marino with a ring.

Brady
Montana
Starr
Marino
Manning

For the most part, but I would put it like this:
Brady
Montana
Starr
Manning
Elway
Marino

 

[ChessToCheckers]

Manning was a good quarterback.

Montana was a great quarterback.

Brady is a f*cking LEGEND!

Brady's in the conversation by himself! He is the greatest regular season and playoffs QB of all time. Bar none. And he 's not done!

Peyton Manning, on the other hand, is the Tom Brady of football commercials.

Thank God he wasn't our quarterback.

 

[Ring 6]

Historically, winning on the Saints was like winning on the reconstituted Browns. Brees bringing them a ring was miraculous. And he was STELLAR on that Super Bowl run, 8 TD 0 INT, every game with a passer rating over 100. That Colts team he beat had a top 10 scoring defense and he dunked on them. Peyton didn't look like he belonged in the same building as Brees.

And his teams have had ATROCIOUS defenses. Even that team he won the Super Bowl with was #20 in scoring defense and #25 in yards allowed! Unlike Peyton, he actually carried the team sometimes instead of turning turtle.

Actually aside from the pick6 they played pretty similarly.
Manning and Brees played mostly equal, up until manning choked.

 

[Deus Irae]

OK I have to say it -- that's incredibly unrealistic. As a rule the Patriots have had one of the top 5 overall rosters in the league every year since 2003. Yes Brady elevates that roster from "among the best" to "best in the world," and that's to his credit, but every team in the goddamned league had some flaw to point out that was equal to or worse than anything you're suggesting, in every single one of those years. That's what the cap era is all about, there is no such thing as a perfect football team.

The system has given Brady enough to compete with and make playoff runs with year after year after year after year after year, and that's literally all they're here to do. That's "their job" if you will. And they do that job head and shoulders better than anyone else in the NFL.

Hell, they nearly got Matt Cassel into the playoffs.

I get the need not to take anything from Brady, but you don't need to crap on the Patriots system to do that.

2005
2006
2009
2010
2011

Which of those rosters were in the NFL's top 5 without Brady?

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

2005
2006
2009
2010
2011

Which of those rosters were in the NFL's top 5 without Brady?

Add 2013 to that list.