OT: Goodell caught in a fib?

[MoLewisrocks]

Re: OT: Goodell caught with hands in cookie jar

The NFL this week cleared the Redskins,and I think Bills(wherever Gregg Williams used to coach) from having a bounty system. This is simply not believable. From so many places in the league former players have come foward and said the bounty system has been in place forever.

No one has said that the bounty system has been in place for years. You are ding what Saints fans attempt to do, comparing apples (bounties) with oranges (player run pay for performance programs). And while a handful of players have stated to the media that Williams did the same thing in Washington and Buffalo, others have denied it and absent corroboration what would you have the league do? Not to mention, those teams weren't ordered to stop it and continued in defiance.

What happened to the Saints is akin to driving with the flow of traffic on the Mass Pike with 31 other cars at 85mph, the black and gold car with the fleur de lis got pulled over for doing 20 over the speed limit. I don't know, maybe the statie's wife decorated the new bathroom in back and gold and he hates it, but it was the Saints who got pulled over.

No it's not but even if it was that's the same thing that happens every day. Just because you get away with something, or someone else did, doesn't make it right or absolve you and no one ever guaranteed you life would be fair.

The CBA is written on the same brand of toilet paper that non guaranteed contracts are. The one's who control the money own the casino, litigate all you wan't and it will be tied up in court for decades. A CBA however doesn't preclude the law of the land, how a court chooses to interpret written laws varies unfortunatly.

What a load of crap. Contracts like CBA's are perfectly valid whether the terms favor one side or the other. Those terms are something they collectively bargain for, and the law is pretty clear that if they do it indeed can preclude the so-called law of the land (which if there is such a thing many here seem to misinterpret anyway).

As far as Godell is concerned about the head injuries, I'm going to have to agree to disagree.

Because you don't have a valid counter.

 

[Rusty Coupe]

Re: OT: Goodell caught with hands in cookie jar

Because you don't have a valid counter.

If anything had been presented to make me change my mind that what Goodell is doing as far as subjecting only players to fines about player safety, I would offer to counter it.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: OT: Goodell caught with hands in cookie jar

If anything had been presented to make me change my mind that what Goodell is doing as far as subjecting only players to fines about player safety, I would offer to counter it.

New Orleans Saints head coach Sean Payton has been suspended for one year, the team will lose its second round pick in 2012 and '13 and pay $500,000 as a result of the NFL's bounty investigation, the league announced Wednesday.

Former defensive coordinator Gregg Williams, who orchestrated the program, has been suspended from the NFL indefinitely. Saints general manager Mickey Loomis faces an eight-game suspension. Saints assistant head coach Joe Vitt is also suspended without pay for the first six games of the 2012 season.

Sean Payton suspended, Saints fined for bounty program

There you go

 

[Rusty Coupe]

Re: OT: Goodell caught with hands in cookie jar

Sean Payton suspended, Saints fined for bounty program

There you go

What do these things have to do with player safety?

They have done some truly wonderful things, but they are not -- and have not been -- a perfect organization by any means. Around the league they’re viewed by many as arrogant, and a lot of people think the Saints play by their own rules.

Even during the week they won the Super Bowl, they repeatedly infuriated league officials by doing whatever they pleased. They were an hour late for media day, something that’s unheard of. Tight end Jeremy Shockey failed to show for a media session later in the week, and the league stepped in and ordered team officials to go get Shockey immediately. Payton tried to skip the news conference the morning after the Super Bowl but was told by the league’s highest powers that he would be in huge trouble if he didn’t show. He grudgingly attended.

A lot of people around the league also think that Payton has unnecessarily run up the score on opponents. There also was a lawsuit brought by the team’s former security director that alleged Payton and assistant head coach Joe Vitt were “stealing’’ Vicodin pills, but that quietly went away. Williams, who left the Saints after last season to join the St. Louis Rams, is also viewed as arrogant by many around the NFL.

The perception around the league is that the Saints have been living on the edge, and not making a lot of friends in the process.

Saints' penalties could be severe - NFC South Blog - ESPN

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: OT: Goodell caught with hands in cookie jar

What do these things have to do with player safety?...

You asked about the player safety issue. The Saints were fined for Bountygate, which is based upon player safety. I've shown your initial claim to be incorrect, by showing that it's not true that Goodell is "subjecting only players to fines about player safety". You chose not to counter it, despite claiming that you would do so. I'm not going to play along with yet another poster moving the goalposts and me having to chase them down. It's become far too common here, and it's to the point where it's just obnoxious. If you want to go about that, you can do it with someone else.

 

[Rusty Coupe]

Re: OT: Goodell caught with hands in cookie jar

You asked about the player safety issue. The Saints were fined for Bountygate, which is based upon player safety. I've shown your initial claim to be incorrect, by showing that it's not true that Goodell is "subjecting only players to fines about player safety". You chose not to counter it, despite claiming that you would do so. I'm not going to play along with yet another poster moving the goalposts and me having to chase them down. It's become far too common here, and it's to the point where it's just obnoxious. If you want to go about that, you can do it with someone else.

I'm sorry if you cannot connect the two, probably best to just move on.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Re: OT: Goodell caught with hands in cookie jar

Goodell..pioneer....just wow....studies on concussive issues related to football began back in the 80's. The pioneers are the doctors and researchers who have been working on this all along....NOT Roger Goodell, who tried to downplay the issue until it blew up in his face in 2009. There seems to be no end to the revisionist history when it comes to the near deification of Goodell by his supporters.Seems there is only one side to any discussion involving Roger Goodell...total, unequivocal, 100% approval. Any attempt to question his motives or tactics are met with near Nazi like propaganda.Roger Goodell is NOT a lawyer, yet he is hailed here as a never wrong arbiter of all things legal pertaining to the NFL. Roger Goodell is certainly no medical professional, in fact,one has to question anything he's involved with concerning the medical issues that the league is dealing with.Pioneer? this is so ludicrous it defies understanding.

I'm no fan of Goodell but he's pretty far into the right things to do re:Bountygate. His job as NFL CEO is to protect the interests of his bosses and constituency, the owners from being sued for neglecting their responsibility to police known programs targeting deliberate physical harm to players. The judge is grandstanding for the locals.

And as to the Nazi bit. Remember....ve know where you live.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: OT: Goodell caught with hands in cookie jar

I'm sorry if you cannot connect the two, probably best to just move on.

The "connect" problem is not on my part. It's on yours. And, yes, please do move on. Go move the goalposts for someone else.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Re: OT: Goodell caught with hands in cookie jar

I'm sorry if you cannot connect the two, probably best to just move on.

He has, you're the one who seeming can't manage to.

 

[Zeus]

Back to the issue raised by the OP -

1. Vilma's case is based on the assertion that the bounty matter is a "pay for performance issue" (to be decided in accordance with the CBA by an arbitrator rather than the commisioner and not subject to player suspension) rather than a "conduct detrimental to the league" matter where the CBA grants the commissioner broad latitude. I'm not a lawyer but from a layman's standpoint, Vilma's case here seems pretty weak.

2. The significance of the March 21 date is that if it can be proven that the NFL had not completed its investigation and made a final determination on the player penalties by that date (as Goodell has asserted), this opens the door for Vilma's defamation suit against Goodell to proceed. More leverage for Vilma and a dumb move by Goodell ...

 

[BananaRepublican]

Where are the facts?

We need facts?

Here are some curious facts: Williams and Payton disappeared without a wimper. So did the players not named Vilma. If everybody disappeared without a wimper except one guy then maybe, just maybe, there was a bounty program AND Goodell has some of his facts wrong about the one guy?

Nowhere in the CBA does it say Goodell can walk on faces with cleats. He has power but it still must be applied without prejudice or other damning kinds of behaviors. He still has the responsibility to be fair. He is trying to rule harshly on data that he won't share, and that is not a CBA sanctioned power. That is what Vilma's attorney is challenging. That is what the judge is looking into and I think it's wrong to conclude that she is either a football fan or prejudiced in the matter.

And even stranger is this alleged data that Goodell has that he won't share with anybody. Just what the hell is it? Depositions? Receipts? Video? Nobody even knows. It could be pretty thin "he said" evidence for all we know. It could be that Goodell is withholding this evidence because to release it would require him to divulge the identity of a mole. It could mean a "he said" head to head confrontation between Vilma and Payton. There is a lot going on and Goodell is clearly in reverse and backing out if he can.

Some judge should rule that the NFL is required to SETTLE with Vilma and that is that. That's when Goodell would throw his cards on the table. Upside down.

 

[letekro]

Re: OT: Goodell caught with hands in cookie jar

You asked about the player safety issue. The Saints were fined for Bountygate, which is based upon player safety. I've shown your initial claim to be incorrect, by showing that it's not true that Goodell is "subjecting only players to fines about player safety". You chose not to counter it, despite claiming that you would do so. I'm not going to play along with yet another poster moving the goalposts and me having to chase them down. It's become far too common here, and it's to the point where it's just obnoxious. If you want to go about that, you can do it with someone else.

This post is the apex of irony.

 

[Deus Irae]

On Wednesday, Judge Helen G. Berrigan ordered the parties to identify by 12:00 p.m. on Friday, August 17 “the date on which the NFLPA requested that Goodell defer issuing discipline notices to the players rather than issuing them at the same time that he disciplined the coaches.”

In response, the NFL has submitted a March 7, 2012 letter from former NFLPA general counsel Richard Berthelsen to NFL general counsel Jeff Pash requesting generally a 60-day delay in all disciplinary proceedings, for players and non-players alike.

NFL submits sworn statement from Goodell on March 21 issue | ProFootballTalk

 

[lurker1965]

The result of this case is irrelevant. It's existence is huge.

I'm talking PR not legality.

When Roger tried to stop the mean old Saints from head hunting for bounties, he got sued. The evil Union and players are at fault for concussions, not the godly NFL.

 

[PatsFanNM]

I find it strange that Goodell says he'd decided what punishments to dole out to the players on March 21, yet had the following exchange with Rich Eisen over a month later, April 24:

" When do you think the issue with suspending players who were involved in this is going to come to a head or a conclusion?

RG: "I hope to reach those decisions very soon. We have been continuing our work. We have continued to talk to players and other people that can give us a perspective. Once we have got all the information and we feel that we are in a position to be able to issue the fairest and most thorough types of decisions, we will do that but I expect to do that soon because this is a big element to me. This is player on player and what we want to do is make sure that people understand that there needs to be respect for players that play the game and that needs to start with players against players. "

That would make it seem like he hadn't come to those decisions yet on March 21st, in which case the judge might decide that it was premature and gratuitous for him to comment on Vilma's behavior in March.

Or am I missing something?

 

[MoLewisrocks]

The result of this case is irrelevant. It's existence is huge.

I'm talking PR not legality.

When Roger tried to stop the mean old Saints from head hunting for bounties, he got sued. The evil Union and players are at fault for concussions, not the godly NFL.

LOL Yeah, we can see what a PR disaster it is based on the ever increasing ratings and bottom line.

There absolutely is shared responsibility and liability among the three, and morally it extends to a whole bunch of fans who whine incessantly about the ruination and sissification of their game.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I find it strange that Goodell says he'd decided what punishments to dole out to the players on March 21, yet had the following exchange with Rich Eisen over a month later, April 24:

" When do you think the issue with suspending players who were involved in this is going to come to a head or a conclusion?

RG: "I hope to reach those decisions very soon. We have been continuing our work. We have continued to talk to players and other people that can give us a perspective. Once we have got all the information and we feel that we are in a position to be able to issue the fairest and most thorough types of decisions, we will do that but I expect to do that soon because this is a big element to me. This is player on player and what we want to do is make sure that people understand that there needs to be respect for players that play the game and that needs to start with players against players. "

That would make it seem like he hadn't come to those decisions yet on March 21st, in which case the judge might decide that it was premature and gratuitous for him to comment on Vilma's behavior in March.

Or am I missing something?

Yeah, what you're missing is he was attempting to give the players and their union and anyone else who wanted to come forward time the union had requested to talk him out of the conclusion he had already reached. And the simple fact is they never did. Players declined to meet with him or investigators, the union either never did an investigation or never produced any evidence for the league to consider. He also may have been still considering whether other players should be fined or suspended, which he ultimately didn't do, while he knew Vilma at the very least would be based on the evidence at hand. Those who ultimately were including Vilma then had another opportunity to change his thinking on appeal - and quite a few players have actually had success with that - but chose to pass in order to underscore the basis of their court claim that the process is inherently unfair. Tough noogies, it's the one you signed off on (well at least all of you save the Steelers...).

 

[Joker]

Re: OT: Goodell caught with hands in cookie jar

I'm no fan of Goodell but he's pretty far into the right things to do re:Bountygate. His job as NFL CEO is to protect the interests of his bosses and constituency, the owners from being sued for neglecting their responsibility to police known programs targeting deliberate physical harm to players. The judge is grandstanding for the locals.

And as to the Nazi bit. Remember....ve know where you live.

I'm not going to get into a mud wrestling match over his job description. What I am contesting is this NOTION,which is NOT based in fact, that Goodell is the shining beacon of truth and righteousness as far as the concussion issue is concerned...NOTHING could be farther from the truth. I posted the link, obviously ignored,authored by Mr. Hanna, an acknowledged expert in the sports litigation field...

In response, the NFL Concussion Committee (“NFL Committee”) denied a link between concussions and cognitive decline, claimed that more research was needed to reach a definitive conclusion,\ and later stated: “we own this field. We are not going to bow to some no-name Nigerian with some bull**** theory.” Noting that (ironically) no committee members were neuropathologists, Omalu questioned the integrity of the NFL Committee, quipping “how can doctors who are not neuropathologists interpret neuropathological findings better than neuropathologists?”

Although additional studies (again in 2005 and later in 2008) reached similar conclusions, the NFL continued to ignore these findings. Instead, during its first Concussion Summit in June 2007, the league issued a warning pamphlet to players which simply stated that “there is no magic number for how many concussions is too many.” Dr. Ira Casson, the former NFL Committee’s Co-Chair, publicly discounted current research on the subject as unreliable and inconclusive.

CONGRESSIONAL HEARING

The concussion debate reached a boiling point in September 2009, when an NFL-commissioned University of Michigan study found that NFL alumni are diagnosed with Alzheimer’s disease (or similar) vastly more often than the national population.16 Shortly thereafter Congress announced that it would hold a hearing to discuss “legal issues relating to football head injuries.”

In October 2009, members of the House Judiciary Committee criticized the NFL’s concussion policy. Though NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell declined to comment on issues requiring medical expertise, the committee played an HBO Real Sports recording of Casson, the NFL’s medical voice on the issue, who denied all potential links between multiple head injuries and later-life cognitive decline. Notably, Representative Linda Sanchez of California analogized the NFL’s denial of a causal link between NFL concussions and cognitive decline to the tobacco industry’s denial of the link between cigarette consumption and ill health effects.0 Sanchez encouraged Goodell to get “ahead on this issue, if only to cover [the NFL] legally,” suggesting that the NFL might avoid liability if it simply issued adequate warning to NFL players.

Goodell HAD TO BE TOLD to "get ahead of the issue."Late in 2009. Shining knight ,my azz.

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

RG is a complete Ahole. The NFL is trying to mask a past 'don't let brain injury become publicly known' conspiracy. The NFL is acting from an arbitrary discipline perspective.
I read the article and am trying to see how the above poster's points are relevant to the article. I think I can answer that. The answer is they aren't. The above are opinions that are unsubstantiated (though RG being an Ahole seems well proven ).

The issue of the article appears to be simple. The NFL said to the court the players' and non players' disciplines had been decided at the same time. Unless the link posted by DI is refuted by Vilma and/or NFLPA, the letter appears to settle that issue. In regards to the larger context of the case, it appears this is simply a player who wants his suspension lowered or revoked -- and is using legal maneuvering to get that result. Vilma (and NFLPA) has two paths to vindication: 1) he can say he was not guilty of the act he was suspended for. 2) The suspension is an illegal punishment under the CBA.

Unless I am missing something, even if the discipline decision dates were different and RG should have said nothing publicly, how does this change Vilma acted improperly and was given a penalty that the CBA appears to allow the NFL to give?
To

 

[lurker1965]

LOL Yeah, we can see what a PR disaster it is based on the ever increasing ratings and bottom line.

There absolutely is shared responsibility and liability among the three, and morally it extends to a whole bunch of fans who whine incessantly about the ruination and sissification of their game.

I'm not talking today. When the "story" is concussions right now it is the evil NFL taking advantage of these poor guys. (Possibly true when you go back to when guys needed jobs in the off season.)

Now it will be about how the NFL is trying to evolve based on new evidence but the evil Vilma lawsuit...