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DRAFT Official Draft Day LIVE Discussion Thread - Night 2


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I'm not really sure about this. Most of the guys who have been successful as Patriots receivers or tight ends have at least showed something in their first year with the team, even if there's a process of acclimation. The best free agents have integrated immediately. Hernandez and Gronk started displaying signs of dominance. Branch was really good until he got hurt. Even Edelman had 37 catches his rookie season. Of the notable Patriots receivers of the last two decades, only David Givens was a homegrown guy who did nothing (other than drop a pass that would have gotten them into the playoffs probably) his rookie year.

That's not to say it's impossible. Especially this year. For the first time in a lifetime we've got a brand new starting QB week 1. Things are going to be different.
One big question about how the best guys integrated more quickly has to be whether that was at least partly Brady picking winners? We all know how he will freeze out those who he doesn’t like or loses confidence in. That of course works to their detriment, stunts their development and denies them opportunities to show their stuff and work their way back into his good graces. How much does the opposite effect occur, and his distribution of passes favor those he likes throwing to and end up giving them more chances faster, accelerating their development and show their stuff?
 
This is probably the best evidence of a mental decline that I’ve seen; this is exactly where it would show up, in what’s been a historical strength of Brady’s. While there are certainly other factors that play into the specific statistics - many hot reads in 2019 not being good enough to create separation or even make the right read period - that doesn’t explain it all.

Actually, that's great evidence of supporting personnel decline.
 
Let's not pretend that ****ing scrub Marshall Newhouse had nothing to do with this. A ****ing inflatable tube man from a car dealership would provide more resistance then he did a season ago at OL, not mention Mason's injury, Andrews blood clots, Cannon playing hurt per the norm, and the lack of separation or general stupidity of the receivers (Dorsett specifically).
 
Yeah, I don't think it was JUST the receivers either. However, I do think that played a huge part. Not just a minor one.

Like I've said before I don't think brady is good enough anymore to play with trash and still make it work. However, I have zero reason to believe at this moment in time that if you give him great players he can't still get it done. I won't believe that until I actually see it. The only thing last year showed me is that brady couldn't get it done with trash around him. Let's see how he looks when he has real play makers. My guess, pretty good.
I agree. I’m not entirely sure he can’t, but it’s clear he won’t. To my eye Brady seems to be getting emotionally brittle. He gets flustered, and he sulks. More than I ever remember seeing in his early career. It seems he doesn’t handle adversity with the same resilience that he used to. He really did seem to take the AB fiasco very poorly. I’ve got to wonder if his voice was a big part of bringing AB to town and when that went off the rails it took his attitude down with it. Anyway I thought he seemed to be more difficult for his receivers to work with, like the chemistry wasn’t the same with anybody he hadn’t already gotten to know. So he was okay with Squirrel but never got that same connection with anybody else. Have to wonder if that was why Sanu was so underwhelming. It will be interesting to see how TB does in TB. The fresh start may help hima lot, and being the de facto prima Donna because he’s effing TOM BRADY and he’s new in the locker room may change a lot of the dynamics for the better at least in the short term. Still I wonder how fragile it’s going to be, and whether the first injury or other adversity will throw a monkey wrench into the works. It will be interesting to watch for sure.
 
You didn’t bother reading the post. I never claimed he had some great season. I am asking for evidence of a physical decline related to age. No one provided any, now they are saying he has mentally declined...whatever that means.
I’ve been reading your posts. Haven’t responded because you’re clearly fixated and dogmatic, but I’ll chime in now to say I saw evidence of both physical and mental declines.

Physical decline was I think partly processing speed, seemed his reactions were a twitch slower. And that’s in the pocket, not just on throws. Most of all though it was that he seemed more affected by wear and tear, minor injuries and dings having more effect and not bouncing back from them the way he used to when he was younger. I’ve seen lots of suggestions that apparent decline in performance might have been nagging injuries, but minor injuries becoming nagging injuries is a part of the physical decline due to aging.

Mental decline I think evidenced in a couple of ways. It’s arguable how much might have been blamed on those around him, but I thought he generally didn’t look as sharp in responding to game play. Reactions were a twitch slower, timing wasn’t as sharp, most importantly his ability to adjust and make those around him better wasn’t there. That last has been a hallmark of his career and he lost it last year. That might tie to the other area I think showed mental decline, and that’s his emotional resilience or lack thereof. He seemed to get flustered when things didn’t go well and let that affect his chemistry with the teammates on the field with him. He also seemed to get caught up and upset by things off the field, like AB. I think he knew he was leaving and maybe checked out a bit early, ver much unlike the Brady of the past. Generally just not the same reaction to events and that showed up in his performance on the field.
 
What do you mean by mental decline? Does he have dementia or something? I’m sorry but this just sounds like something people say with a lack of explanation since there wasn’t a physical decline.

He did just walk into somebody else's house in Tampa Bay, drop his bag, and yell "G, where are the Depends?"
 
Let's not pretend that ****ing scrub Marshall Newhouse had nothing to do with this. A ****ing inflatable tube man from a car dealership would provide more resistance then he did a season ago at OL, not mention Mason's injury, Andrews blood clots, Cannon playing hurt per the norm, and the lack of separation or general stupidity of the receivers (Dorsett specifically).
I don't want to bag on Newhouse too much. He is a backup and certainly not a good enough backup to be put in the position he was. But yeah he was a huge part of the struggles. The receivers were a huge part of the struggles. The TE's were so awful that linebackers could easily cover them and pass rushers could obliterate them. Opponents switched defensive backs onto James White and literally left Brady with zero mismatches to go after. He had to rely on rookies to get open fast and they didn't.

It's not difficult at all to understand that it is hard to get the ball off quick under pressure when no one is open.
 
I’ve been reading your posts. Haven’t responded because you’re clearly fixated and dogmatic, but I’ll chime in now to say I saw evidence of both physical and mental declines.

Physical decline was I think partly processing speed, seemed his reactions were a twitch slower. And that’s in the pocket, not just on throws. Most of all though it was that he seemed more affected by wear and tear, minor injuries and dings having more effect and not bouncing back from them the way he used to when he was younger. I’ve seen lots of suggestions that apparent decline in performance might have been nagging injuries, but minor injuries becoming nagging injuries is a part of the physical decline due to aging.

Mental decline I think evidenced in a couple of ways. It’s arguable how much might have been blamed on those around him, but I thought he generally didn’t look as sharp in responding to game play. Reactions were a twitch slower, timing wasn’t as sharp, most importantly his ability to adjust and make those around him better wasn’t there. That last has been a hallmark of his career and he lost it last year. That might tie to the other area I think showed mental decline, and that’s his emotional resilience or lack thereof. He seemed to get flustered when things didn’t go well and let that affect his chemistry with the teammates on the field with him. He also seemed to get caught up and upset by things off the field, like AB. I think he knew he was leaving and maybe checked out a bit early, ver much unlike the Brady of the past. Generally just not the same reaction to events and that showed up in his performance on the field.
I mean part of that is exactly what I said. He was drained and tired of what was going on around him. I won't say he gets a free pass for the fairly depressed body language, although it is understandable. Obviously a lot of stuff has happened recently that led to this. Disputes with Belichick, poor personnel which was it its absolute worst last season and that he admits he already had a foot out of the door.

I think with a new team, with great weapons and none of the baggage of the last few seasons he will be reinvigorated and have a great season. I just think that the personnel was really really bad and worse than it has ever been in his time here. In 2006 he had a few of those guys who were good. Ben Watson was emerging, and he was backed by a good running game and even Gaffney who came in late became a surprisingly good addition. In 2013 he had Edelman, a good running game and he had Gronk for a stretch.

He had a bad OL, confused rookie wide outs, an old and injured Julian (who still did great), injured Sanu, a non-existent running game, atrocious TE's and arguably his best weapon nullified by quick DB's since the TE's never demanded attention.

I think circumstances were far and away the biggest contributors to the issues of last season. Others apparently believe reactions were 'a twitch slower' due to age and that had a big impact. We'll find out next season I guess.
 
I agree with much of what you said. Think you nailed it with your predictions about TB in TB. Think you are underrating the team around Brady last year and overrating some of the dogs he was able to win with in the past. Lots of factors come into play. I see the main job of the QB as being a leader and that means a lot of the past season reflects Brady’s performance for the year. A lot of that was natural consequences of situations. I wish him the best, he certainly gave us the best for years, and hope he bounces back to go out on a good note. But it’s getting real close for the fat lady to sing for him.

I mean part of that is exactly what I said. He was drained and tired of what was going on around him. I won't say he gets a free pass for the fairly depressed body language, although it is understandable. Obviously a lot of stuff has happened recently that led to this. Disputes with Belichick, poor personnel which was it its absolute worst last season and that he admits he already had a foot out of the door.

I think with a new team, with great weapons and none of the baggage of the last few seasons he will be reinvigorated and have a great season. I just think that the personnel was really really bad and worse than it has ever been in his time here. In 2006 he had a few of those guys who were good. Ben Watson was emerging, and he was backed by a good running game and even Gaffney who came in late became a surprisingly good addition. In 2013 he had Edelman, a good running game and he had Gronk for a stretch.

He had a bad OL, confused rookie wide outs, an old and injured Julian (who still did great), injured Sanu, a non-existent running game, atrocious TE's and arguably his best weapon nullified by quick DB's since the TE's never demanded attention.

I think circumstances were far and away the biggest contributors to the issues of last season. Others apparently believe reactions were 'a twitch slower' due to age and that had a big impact. We'll find out next season I guess.
 
Great change in his perspective:
"My whole career – from high school through college – was about proving people wrong. But now, I have a team and a bunch of people to prove right, which is a whole different mindset. I have the Patriots organization and Coach Bill and my teammates to prove that I was the right guy to bring in. I don't want them to look bad for bringing in a kid everybody said shouldn't be here."
 
My thoughts on need:
Not looking at all pro at every position but the liklihood of improving the team.

QB. Need to take one at some point. If they believe stidham can be the man I trust the staff and their ability to educate QBs. The arm is there. Transactions at this spot will tell you whether they believe the mental part is there and the maleability. But need a draft choice for backup/competition.

RB. I do not see a need here, including FB
WR. Everyone other than Edelman and Harry can be upgraded. Theoretically a lot today and a little through round 7.

TE. All 3 types of TE, blocker, receiver, full time can be upgraded and any decent draft choice should be able to make the roster. I see 2 being picked this weekend.

OL assuming the health of last years 2 choices I wouldn’t use anything earlier than 5 on ol (need wise) but every draft should have at least 1 ol.

DT. A big huge run stuffing stud would be the best thing this d could add. Aside from that guy, Allen, butler, cowart is a pretty solid group.

De/Olb. Whether we are 4-2 base or 3-3 base 2 of this group is on the field whether you call them de or olb. I think it looks more like 4-2 and last year was an adjustment to the roster. I think winovich replaces van noy and I’m good with that. The other side is Simon/Copeland/Wise and I see it as upgradeable early but after round 4 we won’t improve what we have.

LB we play 2 LBs max (see de/olb description for the 3rd) we have Hightower and Bentley. We have no depth. Any lb drafted should make the roster but won’t play a lot. This is a mid round need to me.

S- an early pick could be S3 or S2 if Chung can’t stay healthy. Jujuan moving here is a possibility. Early pick will make the roster late pick would have to be st demon.

CB- no need but the late pick on the special team demon with upside could make the team.

K. Need one. Obviously.

P don’t. Obviously.
Damn BB could have written this. Almost a perfect call of how he drafted.
 
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TRANSCRIPT: Eliot Wolf’s Pre-Draft Press Conference 4/18/24
Thursday Patriots Notebook 4/18: News and Notes
Wednesday Patriots Notebook 4/17: News and Notes
Tuesday Patriots Notebook 4/16: News and Notes
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Thursday Patriots Notebook 4/11: News and Notes
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