NFL GAME DAY DISCUSSION NFL Divisional playoffs discussion

[Wozzy]

Seems like you have an ulterior motive..given you would take choke artist Justin Herbert over Lamar Jackson. Hmmm I wonder why.

Lamar Jackson is a soon to be 3x nfl mvp and future hall of famer.

Not really, I would take multiple pure passers over Lamar Jackson. I'd take Drake Maye right now over Lamar... and Drake is still a bit of an unknown.

In my world as a lazyboy recliner GM my ultimate goal is to win championships, not be good in the regular season. I want my QB to win Super Bowl MVP's, not meaningless regular season MVP's.

Lamar is the direct reason why the Ravens fail in the playoffs. It's a passing league, the greatest QB in history could barely run at all and he only retired a few years ago. Mahomes is the best now because he can pass with hyper accuracy, running is simply gravy. It's his arm and his head that makes him great... along with Andy Reid and top notch talent around him. But he has the accuracy and ability to beat top tier defenses from the pocket... Lamar doesn't.

 

[lancerman]

Again, different eras entirely. Tom Brady's stats in the first half of the dynasty look much different than the second half and into his Bucs era. He is one if not only QB who really straddled the old NFL and the new one.

In the decade following Bill Polian whining to the competition committee and changing the rules, added to the rules when the league woke up to the lasting effects of concussions.... yellow flags doubled. There was more pass interference than at any point in history, there was no more Ronnie Lott or Rodney Harrison sitting in the middle of the field waiting to take your head off.

The game changed dramatically. 60% passing two decades ago looks like 70% passing now... the rules make it much easier. Vick was Lamar Jackson, Lamar is Vick... only the game has changed. Neither is/was an accurate passer... their coaches use scheme and they use their feet to get receivers wide open. Defenders can't destroy Lamar like they could Vick, because he can just slide. If Lamar was a good passer he'd be like all the other good passers in the NFL, he'd be attempting 30-50 passes a game. Harbaugh limits the amount of passing Lamar does, even if they have tried to limit his rushes in recent years given his health and his pass attempts have increased.

Tom Brady or Mahomes could thread a needle, Lamar gets it within a few feet... there's a big difference in accuracy.

It's not about stats. Lamar Jackson is very different from Vick. Did you watch the game? He was dropping dimes all over the field and his receivers were dropping them. Vick couldn't do that. Lamar doesn't bail on every play to run like Vick. Lamar Jackson is middle of the pack on attempts. Josh Allen has less than 10 more attempts on the year than him. Matt Stafford who is a pure pocket passer averaged 2.5 more pass attempts per game than Lamar. Drake Maye averages about the same amount of attempts per game. He attempted over 30 passes in half his games this year and attempted over 40 twice.

 

[Wozzy]

It's not about stats. Lamar Jackson is very different from Vick. Did you watch the game? He was dropping dimes all over the field and his receivers were dropping them. Vick couldn't do that. Lamar doesn't bail on every play to run like Vick. Lamar Jackson is middle of the pack on attempts. Josh Allen has less than 10 more attempts on the year than him. Matt Stafford who is a pure pocket passer averaged 2.5 more pass attempts per game than Lamar. Drake Maye averages about the same amount of attempts per game. He attempted over 30 passes in half his games this year and attempted over 40 twice.

You need to go watch some film from the early 2000's and prior, look at the physicality of the cornerbacks then versus now... look at the fear receivers had for going over the middle. Look at the hits QB's took then when they were football players, versus now where you can't touch them at all.

Darryl Stingley became a paraplegic in a preseason game. This isn't a debate... the game has changed dramatically.

 

[40yrpatsfan]

Not really, I would take multiple pure passers over Lamar Jackson. I'd take Drake Maye right now over Lamar... and Drake is still a bit of an unknown.

In my world as a lazyboy recliner GM my ultimate goal is to win championships, not be good in the regular season. I want my QB to win Super Bowl MVP's, not meaningless regular season MVP's.

Lamar is the direct reason why the Ravens fail in the playoffs. It's a passing league, the greatest QB in history could barely run at all and he only retired a few years ago. Mahomes is the best now because he can pass with hyper accuracy, running is simply gravy. It's his arm and his head that makes him great... along with Andy Reid and top notch talent around him. But he has the accuracy and ability to beat top tier defenses from the pocket... Lamar doesn't.

I think Lamar's a helluva QB and has his head on straight. He had a fluke fumble and a harmless overthrow INT. Other than that he played a great game and it was miscues by others that lost it, plus that horrible PI call. He's not a run-first guy, he plays a balanced game.

 

[Wozzy]

I think Lamar's a helluva QB and has his head on straight. He had a fluke fumble and a harmless overthrow INT. Other than that he played a great game and it was miscues by others that lost it, plus that horrible PI call. He's not a run-first guy, he plays a balanced game.

Last year in the 4th quarter of the playoffs he folded like a cheap futon and turned it over twice.

Is he slightly better now than years ago, maybe... he's still a one look and run QB. He still makes most of his plays with his feet and that's what coordinators fear most. He's not a hyper accurate passer who throws it to where only his receiver can get it, he throws it to an area.

I'd put his modicum of succees last game versus last year's final game on the Bill's defense, they weren't nearly as good as the Chiefs defense last year. If by some chance Lamar got past the Bills last week, he'd still have to face a superior defense this week. I don't trust Lamar to get through 3-4 playoff games to win it all, at least one of those playoff defenses will have the players to corral him and force him to beat them with his arm... he doesn't have that kind of juice.

 

[lancerman]

You need to go watch some film from the early 2000's and prior, look at the physicality of the cornerbacks then versus now... look at the fear receivers had for going over the middle. Look at the hits QB's took then when they were football players, versus now where you can't touch them at all.

Darryl Stingley became a paraplegic in a preseason game. This isn't a debate... the game has changed dramatically.

That’s cool. I’m talking about Jackson, not a change that applies to every QB. He’s middle of the pack in attempts and he throws dimes. He’s not Vick who can’t win from the pocket.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I think Lamar's a helluva QB and has his head on straight. He had a fluke fumble and a harmless overthrow INT. Other than that he played a great game and it was miscues by others that lost it, plus that horrible PI call. He's not a run-first guy, he plays a balanced game.

Thats the thing with Jackson. You can call them "flukes" but it's a trend.

The reality is the guy has thrown 7 picks and fumbled 7 times in 8 playoff games. When you look at his 335 total touches in playoff games that is a TO ever 24 throws/runs. For a comparison, Tom coughed it up every 36 throws/runs.

There is no question Jackson is better as a passer than he was a few years ago. His TD drive at the end of the game was impressive. He still has these weird accuracy issues from time to time.

 

[Grogan14]

Last year in the 4th quarter of the playoffs he folded like a cheap futon and turned it over twice.

Is he slightly better now than years ago, maybe... he's still a one look and run QB. He still makes most of his plays with his feet and that's what coordinators fear most. He's not a hyper accurate passer who throws it to where only his receiver can get it, he throws it to an area.

I'd put his modicum of succees last game versus last year's final game on the Bill's defense, they weren't nearly as good as the Chiefs defense last year. If by some chance Lamar got past the Bills last week, he'd still have to face a superior defense this week. I don't trust Lamar to get through 3-4 playoff games to win it all, at least one of those playoff defenses will have the players to corral him and force him to beat them with his arm... he doesn't have that kind of juice.

But he did not fold. He was clutch in crunch time. Drove his team diwn the field from his own 20 with under 2 minutes. Should have been game tying but Andrews dropped the 2 point conversion.
I think the notion that ge is no good in big games is yesterdays news.
He has evolved and other than Mahomes or Allen there is no other qb would rather have in pressure situation

 

[PatsFan2]

Thats the thing with Jackson. You can call them "flukes" but it's a trend.

The reality is the guy has thrown 7 picks and fumbled 7 times in 8 playoff games. When you look at his 335 total touches in playoff games that is a TO ever 24 throws/runs. For a comparison, Tom coughed it up every 36 throws/runs.

There is no question Jackson is better as a passer than he was a few years ago. His TD drive at the end of the game was impressive. He still has these weird accuracy issues from time to time.

He was playing without his Top WR Zay Flowers that's saying something.

Zay Flowers Career Stats - NFL - ESPN

 

[RobertWeathers]

He was playing without his Top WR Zay Flowers that's saying something.

Zay Flowers Career Stats - NFL - ESPN

How? Zay had 1 catch for 10yds vs BUF in the prior matchup and they scored 35points. Difference is they only had 1 TO and on Sun they had 3 and didn't run Henry enough.

 

[PatsFan2]

But he did not fold. He was clutch in crunch time. Drove his team diwn the field from his own 20 with under 2 minutes. Should have been game tying but Andrews dropped the 2 point conversion.
I think the notion that ge is no good in big games is yesterdays news.
He has evolved and other than Mahomes or Allen there is no other qb would rather have in pressure situation

Patsfans can stop hating on Lamar now after that clutch Drive that Mark Andrews. Andrews have a statue in Buffalo.

 

[PatsFan2]

How? Zay had 1 catch for 10yds vs BUF in the prior matchup.

You can't be serious D Henry rushed for 199yds in a rout day off for Zay there.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Again, different eras entirely. Tom Brady's stats in the first half of the dynasty look much different than the second half and into his Bucs era. He is one if not only QB who really straddled the old NFL and the new one.

In the decade following Bill Polian whining to the competition committee and changing the rules, added to the rules when the league woke up to the lasting effects of concussions.... yellow flags doubled. There was more pass interference than at any point in history, there was no more Ronnie Lott or Rodney Harrison sitting in the middle of the field waiting to take your head off.

The game changed dramatically. 60% passing two decades ago looks like 70% passing now... the rules make it much easier. Vick was Lamar Jackson, Lamar is Vick... only the game has changed. Neither is/was an accurate passer... their coaches use scheme and they use their feet to get receivers wide open. Defenders can't destroy Lamar like they could Vick, because he can just slide. If Lamar was a good passer he'd be like all the other good passers in the NFL, he'd be attempting 30-50 passes a game. Harbaugh limits the amount of passing Lamar does, even if they have tried to limit his rushes in recent years given his health and his pass attempts have increased.

Tom Brady or Mahomes could thread a needle, Lamar gets it within a few feet... there's a big difference in accuracy.

Younger fans mind’s are warped by what they are seeing in today’s game where the most pedestrian QB can throw for 4,000 yards and over 60% completions. Defenses aren’t as aggressive as they used to be and are less sophisticated/talented.

The rule changes with DB’s caused by the Pats physicality and the Carson Palmer/Tom Brady rule, have opened the floodgates for WR’s/TE’s and extended the life of QB. Sorry, but Tom Brady would’ve been cooked by 35 had the rules never been changed. Avocado’s and pliability can’t defend constant head and leg shots that guys before him took. Some of the greats such as Joe Montana, Troy Aikman, Steve Young, Dan Marino Jim Kelly and John Elway to name a few were a shell of themselves by their mid 30’s. Brett Favre was a rare case surviving that era as long as he did, but he wasn’t the same player as he was in his younger days.

The running QB was frowned upon for a long time because they’d expose themselves to hits which we don’t see in today’s game.

 

[RobertWeathers]

You can't be serious D Henry rushed for 199yds in a rout day off for Zay there.

What is your point? My point is he didn't need Zay then and he didn't need him again on Sunday to win.

I've been hearing this from the LJAX apologists for years...."He doesn't have a WR. Thats why he came up short in the playoffs.". Nonsense.

BAL lost b/c he turned the ball over twice and made a crap throw to Edwards (who also should have caught it) in a tight game. Harbaugh f-ed up because he didn't run Henry enough and the D didn't rise to the occasion. Jackson isn't good enough to carry a team to a Super Bowl without his supporting cast helping him.

 

[PatsFan2]

What is your point? My point is he didn't need Zay then and he didn't need him again on Sunday to win.

I've been hearing this from the LJAX apologists for years...."He doesn't have a WR. Thats why he came up short in the playoffs.". Nonsense.

BAL lost b/c he turned the ball over twice and made a crap throw to Edwards (who also should have caught it) in a tight game. Harbaugh f-ed up because he didn't run Henry enough and the D didn't rise to the occasion. Jackson isn't good enough to carry a team to a Super Bowl without his supporting cast helping him.

Bull $h!t.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Patsfans can stop hating on Lamar now after that clutch Drive that Mark Andrews. Andrews have a statue in Buffalo.

I’m not a Lamar fan, but he rallied his team back. Andrews shaved points that night being careless with the football and then dropping a wide open pass.

 

[Wozzy]

That’s cool. I’m talking about Jackson, not a change that applies to every QB. He’s middle of the pack in attempts and he throws dimes. He’s not Vick who can’t win from the pocket.

The change explains the difference in how Vicks stats versus Lamar’s. I’d also say Harbaugh did a better job tailoring the offense around Lamar than Vicks coaches did with him, he was just thrown into a pro style offense and expected to change to fit it. Lamar can’t win from the pocket in the playoffs, if he could have he would have already. He can only beat the wildcard teams… the lesser defenses.

 

[Wozzy]

But he did not fold. He was clutch in crunch time. Drove his team diwn the field from his own 20 with under 2 minutes. Should have been game tying but Andrews dropped the 2 point conversion.
I think the notion that ge is no good in big games is yesterdays news.
He has evolved and other than Mahomes or Allen there is no other qb would rather have in pressure situation

I said last year.

Lamar had an interception and a fumble in last week’s loss, he had an interception and a fumble in last years playoff loss… the only difference was when his mistakes occurred. He still turned it over twice.

And like I said earlier, the Bill’s defense was largely the reason why. They have been pretty middling all season, the Chief’s defense last season was much tougher. Even if Lamar won on Sunday he wasn’t likely to win another game. It’s the playoffs, it only gets tougher.

 

[ScottishPatriots]

If you wouldn't take Lamar Jackson get ready to be disappointed for the rest of your Patriots fandom, the chances the Patriots get a QB as good as Jackson in the next 30 years are slim to none.

Maye was throwing picks at the end of winnable games yet people seem to have already deemed him a franchise QB but they wouldn't take a soon to be 3x MVP?

 

[Wozzy]

If you wouldn't take Lamar Jackson get ready to be disappointed for the rest of your Patriots fandom, the chances the Patriots get a QB as good as Jackson in the next 30 years are slim to none.

Maye was throwing picks at the end of winnable games yet people seem to have already deemed him a franchise QB but they wouldn't take a soon to be 3x MVP?

You’re comparing a 21 year old to a seven year vet. Absurd.

Lamar hasn’t won anything of note, he is the Colts Division banner personified.