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Discussion in 'Boston Celtics Fan Forum' started by ALP, Apr 28, 2019.

  1. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Draft combine results:

    Standing reach:
    Green : 8’10”
    Williams : 8’8.5”

    Standing vertical:
    Green : 28”
    Williams : 26”

    Max vertical:
    Green : 33”
    Williams : 31.5”

    Bench press:
    Green : 9
    Williams : 20

    Final college year, Williams(jr) was a much better scorer in the paint, and was an equal to green (sr) in most other categories and much higher effect fg pct.

    Green lost 20lb pre combine and recently lost weight that improved his athleticism, but his numbers suffered mightily.

    The jury is definitely out
     
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  2. Hyped

    Hyped PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You wouldn't take Tatum over Horford? I would build a team around Tatum before Horford for sure. As of right now, I'd prefer Horford at the 4 vs. Tatum when it comes to rebounding/defense/setting screens/stretching out the other team's bigs...but that's about it. And Al cannot even defend Tatum on the perimeter and would be in trouble with a smaller player off a screen too. Like I said...apples and oranges.

    And Hayward > Richards every day of the week and twice on Sundays...even the Hayward of 2018-2019.

    I think you are massively underrating Tatum/Brown/Hayward as I expect all 3 to be one of our top 4 scorers/mpg guys along with Walker. Last year, we force fed Hayward before moving him to the bench and also had to bench Brown so he wouldn't be playing with Kyrie. Then there was Tatum settling for mid range J's. Kyrie really affected this team more than people think he did, IMO. Irving is massively talented, but the offense flowed through him first and foremost.
     
  3. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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  4. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It's not apples and oranges. Horford was better than Tatum last year. It's fine to hope that Tatum is better this year, but there's a difference between hope and analysis.

    See, when you find yourself writing something like that, you need to realize that you've lost your analysis. Hayward was mostly dogshit last year.


    And I think I'm rating them just where they were last year, save possible small adjustments based upon a reasonable likelihood, and should be considered until proven otherwise. That's analysis. Minor comments like "Tatum had a down year last year, and we should be able to expect at least some bounce back this year" are sensible analysis. Comments like "Tatum is going to be better than Horford, as a PF, because Horford's changed from 32yo to 33yo!" aren't. And "IF" goes both ways:

    IF Embiid keeps getting better
    IF Al plays more freely now that he's back at the 4
    IF Simmons shoots just a little bit better
    IF Tatum doesn't improve more than marginally
    IF Hayward doesn't bounce all the way back
    IF the Celtics center position sucks as much as it might
    IF the Celtics power forward position sucks as much as it might
    etc....

    v.

    IF Hayward b0unces back to being the old Hayward
    IF Tatum takes a big leap forward
    IF Brown keeps showing improvement
    IF having Walker becomes a matter of fit being better than talent
    IF Tacko doesn't fail
    IF the Celtics center position doesn't suck
    IF the Celtics power forward position actually is a net positive
    IF the Celtics can find a way to hold its own on the boards
    IF Stevens can modify his system enough for the new group of players to function at a high level
    IF Embiid breaks down
    IF Philly doesn't round out its depth
    IF Simmons still can't hit a shot from beyond 5-6 feet
    etc...
     
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    Last edited: Jul 7, 2019
  5. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Can’t get any more one dimensional.....completely dismissing reasonable expectation of younger players improving....

    Al Horford was never a PF
     
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  6. Hyped

    Hyped PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Horford and Tatum are two completely different players. I am not even sure who the Sixers will have Horford (while paired with Embiid) defend when the Celts put Walker/Hayward/Brown/Tatum/Kanter on the court. Hell, we could see Simmons or Harris on Tatum/Brown more. Horford helped the Celts' defense..he was a great help defender and improved his three point shooting last year, but I would take Tatum vs. Horford ISO every day and twice on Sundays. Likewise, I would also post up Horford vs. Tatum every chance I got. Again apples and oranges therefore a wash.

    Hayward in two seasons with the Celts:

    11.3 ppg
    3.3 apg
    4.4 rpg
    .527 eFG%
    25.6 mpg (started 19 of 73 games)

    Josh Richards' best season in 2018-9 w/ Miami:

    16.6 ppg
    4.1 apg
    3.6 rpg
    .492 eFG%
    34.8 mpg (also started 73 of 73 games)

    Difference: +5.3 ppg, +.8apg, -.8rpg, -.035eFG%, and +8.8mpg when comparing Richards' best season vs. Hayward's crappy 2017-2019 seasons.
    Reasonable likehood? I think it is VERY reasonable to expect:

    - Tatum to get better as his issue was shot selection and/or lack of aggression...two very fixable things.

    - Brown to see his numbers rise with more minutes. This is a natural expectation.

    - Walker to be Walker....I am even expecting a drop in his numbers across the board as he was the top dawg in Charlotte.

    - Hayward to bounce back to All Star form...we could see Hayward showing signs of that late in the season and during the playoffs before the team collapsed against the Bucks.

    - I don't think it is reasonable to expect us to replace what Horford did here by committee. Horford was integral to our team the last three years. However, I expect us to adjust by doing things differently (e.g. better rebounding and inside scoring w/ Kanter). Ditto for Kyrie being replaced by committee.

    Overall, it is reasonable to expect the Celtics to outperform last year's team due to better chemistry and letting our young guys lead the way. In addition, Philly took a step back offensively with the departures of Butler and Redick..but got stronger defensively with a stretch big man in Horford who can cover for Embiid. Both teams were separated by TWO games last year with the last match up being won by Philly 118-115 after both Kyrie/Morris missed two shots and Butler hit a 9 footer. That was basically the difference last year.
     
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  7. aluminum seats

    aluminum seats Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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  8. ChrisR2223

    ChrisR2223 Pro Bowl Player

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    Love this dude he's whats right about professional sports.
    For every 5 Tyreek Hills there is one Kemba Walkers.
     
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  9. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It's not reasonable to think that chemistry and leadership by young people is going to be enough to overcome the loss of 3 starters and an important backup at what's now at least seemingly a very much weakened position (Irving, Horford, Baynes and Morris). Boston has downgraded at center (starting and depth), point guard, and power forward. Arguing potential upgrades at maturity and chemistry is not a rational argument for improving despite actual and significant losses, but an emotional one.

    Furthermore, you're confusing a particular team matchup with overall talent and, beyond that, you're ignoring the reality that a big part of why Boston was able to beat Philly in games over the past couple of years is that Horford was able to limit Embiid. Another reason is that the Celtics were able to limit the less athletic Reddick's ability to play effectively (20/58 a/k/a 34% shooting overall, 14/37 a/k/a 38% from 3 point range). Another reason is that the Celtics were able to use a combination of defenses with their bigs in order to keep Simmons from getting to the rim more. Two of those three things are now irrelevant (Horford won't be defending Embiid and Reddick won't be playing for Philly), and the third is now likely to be much more difficult with the likes of Kanter at the center position. This year, regardless of whether you feel the 76ers got better or just stayed about the same, the Celtics got worse, and that's what's got to be overcome.

    Celtics fans as a whole are considered the biggest honks in Boston. They've pivoted from "We need to get the likes of Kyrie and AD, because talent is more important then chemistry" to "Screw Kyrie! Chemistry is what matters" faster than a quick center can pivot in the post.
     
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  10. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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  11. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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  12. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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  13. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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  14. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    lol.......the celts went further and played better and had better chemistry without irving and hayward. from a team that went to game 7 of the ECF, they lost horford, morris, baynes, and rozier and added hayward, walker, kanter, and a bunch of youth.....so yeah, screw kyrie......chemistry does matter

    I think you're the biggest honk in boston
     
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  15. lancerman

    lancerman Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    He has pretty bad takes, but he’s right here. The Celtics overperformed in every aspect a year ago and took a team that didn’t stand a chance in the finals to a game 7. The Celtics would have been dropped just as bad by the Warriors. The East was also trash that year as well.

    The Celtics downgraded or outright lost too much to assume that chemistry will outweighs what they subtracted in
     
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  16. ViperGTS

    ViperGTS Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    I agree. I guess the Cs just have a bad team with no hope of getting better or even really, really good. Can’t figure Deus out. He is very wrong on this subject and I am pretty sure that the Cs will turn done heads very early on. The only net loss is Horford, but that can be mitigated. Did you see Kanter pumping up Taco? Yeah the team is gonna have much better chemistry and that will let the massive talent shine through.
     
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  17. Hyped

    Hyped PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It is obvious that we disagree on how much Kyrie affected the team's development in 2018-2019, how much better Hayward/Tatum/Brown will be in 2019-2020, how Philly still has depth issues and lost some scorers they could count on, and etc... It will be an interesting match up in 2019-2020 because I don't know how either team will defend one another when the Celts go "small ball" vs. Philly's big line up.

    My "emotional" expectations aren't very unreasonable. I feel that right now...talent wise...they are up there with the Bucks/Sixers and it is more than reasonable to expect the Celts to win 47+ games and make the post-season.

    I am willing to make a friendly wager of 52 wins or better during the 2019-2020 season. You game? Of course, I'd require certain conditions (e.g. None of Tatum/Brown/Hayward/Walker misses more than 20 games).
     
  18. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You could figure me out on this, very easily, if you'd just do two things:

    1. Stop mischaracterizing my positions.
    2. Start thinking analytically instead of like a Celtics honk.
     
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  19. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Again, it's fine to have hope. But that's not analysis. That's hope and emotion. Boston lost 2 of its 3 best players from last year (Irving, Horford), and Morris would slot in at either #4 or #5. In return, they brought in lesser players across the board. Somehow, you have that translating into a talent gain. From a rational standpoint, that's nonsensical.

    Now, if you want to change your position to just being something like "Even though Boston obviously seems to have taken a step back, I'm hopeful that they can overcome that by.....", rather than insisting that hope = logic and/or making claims like Tatum > Horford (as Viper did) when such was clearly not the case, I'll be 100% on board with that.
     
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  20. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Since it's trending .. how about the #1 Celtics Honk:

    [​IMG]
     
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