Lombardi: The Jets want Brandon Marshall

[Grizzafted]

i mean how many broncos games do you guys watch? i have to ask that question. my brother is a big broncos fan so i've watched marshall play, a lot. his game is perfect for brady. he catches balls in very tight spaces, has great hands and is incredibly tough in the middle of the field. say what you want about his maturity, but the fact is that you can send him right at a strong safety and he will not only catch the ball, but often run right through the tackle. moss has been great here, and the lost season is a total shame, but guess what? he's not going to be 2007 caliber again. it's time to deal with that. marshall is 25. talk about tough guys who will be there when it counts...he might be a bit of a primadonna but the fact is you can ask this guy to perform and he will step up. he wanted out of denver, and yes, he is young and has made some stupid mistakes (darrent williams, etc). we took a shot with meriweather and he's kept his nose clean. why are we all so sure that the locker room culture is gone these days? there is still wilfork, brady, belichick, mayo...there are good, solid foundation for a great locker room in NE right now.

oh and Terry Glenn was NEVER even close to the receiver that Marshall is. i'm just saying. him and Brady would be a lethal combination, and in a very different way than him and Moss. i think their games would click together in a really mutual way.

 

[The_Riddler]

i mean how many broncos games do you guys watch? i have to ask that question. my brother is a big broncos fan so i've watched marshall play, a lot. his game is perfect for brady. he catches balls in very tight spaces, has great hands and is incredibly tough in the middle of the field. say what you want about his maturity, but the fact is that you can send him right at a strong safety and he will not only catch the ball, but often run right through the tackle. moss has been great here, and the lost season is a total shame, but guess what? he's not going to be 2007 caliber again. it's time to deal with that. marshall is 25. talk about tough guys who will be there when it counts...he might be a bit of a primadonna but the fact is you can ask this guy to perform and he will step up. he wanted out of denver, and yes, he is young and has made some stupid mistakes (darrent williams, etc). we took a shot with meriweather and he's kept his nose clean. why are we all so sure that the locker room culture is gone these days? there is still wilfork, brady, belichick, mayo...there are good, solid foundation for a great locker room in NE right now.

oh and Terry Glenn was NEVER even close to the receiver that Marshall is. i'm just saying. him and Brady would be a lethal combination, and in a very different way than him and Moss. i think their games would click together in a really mutual way.

I agree 100%, the chemistry between Brady and Marshall would be natural, both seem to play to the other's strengths. It would be a seamless transition.

Here's my fear, we've seen the "great" Randy, we've seen the "I'm bored" Randy and we've seen the "I am shutting it down today" Randy. It's going to happen again this season at different points. When it has happened in the past, we used to have other options (see 2007), last year, there wasn't an option on the other side of the offense for Brady, it was Welker or bust.

I would present an offer to Josh that includes our lowest 2nd round pick and work from there. Sure, in the end it may cost us the #22, but think about it, isn't Marshall a top 15 pick if he were coming out in the draft as is? Marshall and Moss in this offense would be a nightmare to defend. Let's make it happen!

 

[ivanvamp]

I agree 100%, the chemistry between Brady and Marshall would be natural, both seem to play to the other's strengths. It would be a seamless transition.

Here's my fear, we've seen the "great" Randy, we've seen the "I'm bored" Randy and we've seen the "I am shutting it down today" Randy. It's going to happen again this season at different points. When it has happened in the past, we used to have other options (see 2007), last year, there wasn't an option on the other side of the offense for Brady, it was Welker or bust.

I would present an offer to Josh that includes our lowest 2nd round pick and work from there. Sure, in the end it may cost us the #22, but think about it, isn't Marshall a top 15 pick if he were coming out in the draft as is? Marshall and Moss in this offense would be a nightmare to defend. Let's make it happen!

I think that you could make this work. Trade a #2 for Marshall. Then try to sign him to a contract that is front-loaded for this year, being an uncapped year. Then, after next year, when Moss' contract is up, Marshall slides into that #1 receiver slot, paired with Welker.

Meanwhile, for the last 6 games of 2010 (plus playoffs), assuming Welker comes back by then, you can roll out a 3 receiver set of Moss, Marshall, and Welker. Holy smokes.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

I think that you could make this work. Trade a #2 for Marshall. Then try to sign him to a contract that is front-loaded for this year, being an uncapped year. Then, after next year, when Moss' contract is up, Marshall slides into that #1 receiver slot, paired with Welker.

Meanwhile, for the last 6 games of 2010 (plus playoffs), assuming Welker comes back by then, you can roll out a 3 receiver set of Moss, Marshall, and Welker. Holy smokes.

the amount of front-loading you can do is somewhat limited, I believe

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I agree 100%, the chemistry between Brady and Marshall would be natural, both seem to play to the other's strengths. It would be a seamless transition.

Here's my fear, we've seen the "great" Randy, we've seen the "I'm bored" Randy and we've seen the "I am shutting it down today" Randy. It's going to happen again this season at different points. When it has happened in the past, we used to have other options (see 2007), last year, there wasn't an option on the other side of the offense for Brady, it was Welker or bust.

I would present an offer to Josh that includes our lowest 2nd round pick and work from there. Sure, in the end it may cost us the #22, but think about it, isn't Marshall a top 15 pick if he were coming out in the draft as is? Marshall and Moss in this offense would be a nightmare to defend. Let's make it happen!

He was projected as a 6th and drafted in the 4th coming out of college with just a couple of minor scrapes with the law in which (in a pattern much like his behavior that has since developed) the charges were dropped. If he were coming out today, not sure how far this timeline would drop him since he is tee'd up for his next league suspension to be at least a 4 bagger...not to mention being suspended or benched by the Broncos twice in bookends last season...

Broncos' Brandon Marshall has faced a series of run-ins with the law and with a former girlfriend - ESPN

If his market was top 15 that begs the question, why has no one bitten and only one team even kicked his tires...

 

[Ring 6]

I just cant see investing all it would take into a guy with deep-seated maturity problems that are likely to keep him off the field at some point, probably sooner rather than later.
Its like hiring a talented employee who was fired from a lot of other jobs and blames everyone else for why he keeps getting fired. Why not just get a guy who is less talented but more reliable without bringing the headaches and baggage along?

 

[Ring 6]

I just don't understand this mentality. I think we all recognize that Randy is closer to the end than he is even to the middle of his career. I don't think he's completely done, but the issue is that he'll still expect to be paid as a top-3 receiver after this year, despite his age making that kind of cost a bad value.

So, presumably in 10 months or so, the Patriots will be losing Randy Moss. At that point, who is our number one receiver? We don't have anyone who can fill that space, so you'd hope to hit on someone in the draft this year. So we'd probably spend a top-two round pick on a WR anyway, so why not send a 1st for someone who we KNOW can be a pro bowl-caliber wideout. Forget the character issues, the guy can play football. I think the Patriots culture has proven that it can provide a professional environment for people, and playing with Brady will give him a good foundation to be productive and successful. He's worth what we're paying Moss. He can catch 15-20 TD's. Why on earth wouldn't he be worth 9 mill? That gives you SO much flexibility with the rest of the WR corps. You can sign and find 2nd and 3rd WRs without too much difficulty, its the number one guy that's hard.

Are we really going to resign Brady to playing the end of his career without a Moss or Rice? If you agree that Moss' playing days are numbered, why not give up that draft pick for someone who is almost guaranteed to be a pro bowl player? Are his personality issues THAT bad? I don't trust locker room culture in Denver the way I do in NE.

I think if we don't run at Marshall, we're going to have a lot more '06-type years at WR after this one. What about 2011...Edelman, a slower Welker, and some kid we draft in the 2nd round this year?

Someone has to explain to me why this ISN'T a good idea instead of why it IS.

Wouldnt the counter argument be "Who was our #1 WR before Moss?"
Is it really necessary to have a stud #1?
Look back at the recent past SB Champs, and you dont see that kind of guy often.

 

[emoney_33]

Wouldnt the counter argument be "Who was our #1 WR before Moss?"
Is it really necessary to have a stud #1?
Look back at the recent past SB Champs, and you dont see that kind of guy often.

You don't need a HOF QB either, but it helps. It all depends on what you have, when you have it and what options are available. You can't always have a Branch, Givens, Brown and Patten on a roster taking up like $6M combined. Both sides have a point, it's all a balancing act IMO.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

You don't need a HOF QB either, but it helps. It all depends on what you have, when you have it and what options are available. You can't always have a Branch, Givens, Brown and Patten on a roster taking up like $6M combined. Both sides have a point, it's all a balancing act IMO.

You may not need a HOF QB but you do need a competent,franchise level QB and since ours never tops the list of compensation hogs (this season he's not in the top 20 compensated players league wide while guys like Rivers and Eli aretaking home more than Peyton...and rookies like Sanchez and Stafford are signed to deals with equal or greater value than his) he actually has always represented value. In part because he has proven he can elevate those around him and get more out of less.

Talent doesn't win championships, execution does. Do your job. Pioli and BB have often addressed the foundation of this system and Pioli recently addressed the importance of adhering to it where player selection is concerned. Succombing to pressure and doing things to shortcut the process or appease impatient critics will ultimately undermine that foundation. We've already seen some of that afoot. You want to build your roster around mentally and physically tough, smart, disciplined players to whom football and committment if not to the organization at least to teamates and achieving common, team oriented goals matters.

When you're coming off a disappointing season where effort and focus and discipline were questioned, and you have a lot of youngsters on the roster and more to come, and you find out you have veteran guys who forgot when the off season program started and leadership guys chosing to persue their post career education in the prime of their career and team captains opining about their next potential contract....you obviously don't have have the kind of core in place that can take a flyer on a troubled talent to appease anyone...

 

[emoney_33]

You may not need a HOF QB but you do need a competent,franchise level QB and since ours never tops the list of compensation hogs (this season he's not in the top 20 compensated players league wide while guys like Rivers and Eli aretaking home more than Peyton...and rookies like Sanchez and Stafford are signed to deals with equal or greater value than his) he actually has always represented value. In part because he has proven he can elevate those around him and get more out of less.

Well Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson aren't exactly franchise level QB. You do not NEED any single one thing to win a SB. Some things help more than others and some sacrifices are better than others. There is also not much empirical evidence that Brady gets more out of less or elevates those around him as a separate trait from being a really great QB.

Talent doesn't win championships, execution does. Do your job.

Better talent has a higher chance of better execution. For example you are almost guaranteed Revis will execute, whereas no matter how hard Randall Gay tried his execution was never great.

Pioli and BB have often addressed the foundation of this system and Pioli recently addressed the importance of adhering to it where player selection is concerned. Succombing to pressure and doing things to shortcut the process or appease impatient critics will ultimately undermine that foundation. We've already seen some of that afoot. You want to build your roster around mentally and physically tough, smart, disciplined players to whom football and committment if not to the organization at least to teamates and achieving common, team oriented goals matters.

What you want to do is not always what you CAN do. The Bruschi's and Harrison's of the NFL world are diamonds in the rough, not something that you can expect to find. Secondly they have never succomb'd to any outside pressure. They have been incredibly consistent in doing what they feel is best for the team's short-term and long-term well-being.

When you're coming off a disappointing season where effort and focus and discipline were questioned, and you have a lot of youngsters on the roster and more to come, and you find out you have veteran guys who forgot when the off season program started and leadership guys chosing to persue their post career education in the prime of their career and team captains opining about their next potential contract....you obviously don't have have the kind of core in place that can take a flyer on a troubled talent to appease anyone...

IMO it's a mistake to get too nostalgic about year's past and expect the blue-collar aura of the 2001 team to be norm of all superbowl teams. On defense, the main thing was that youth and inexperience led to poor execution and inconsistency. Neither Warren nor Moss will negatively impact this team, they have not since they've been here and will not next season. AD, on the other hand, is seemingly a negative influence and his attitude has probably hurt the team more than just with his poor play on the field.

Your points are absolutely valid, albeit overstated, but the best they can do is weed out the true bad seeds like AD. Football is important to most of the guys on the roster, but it's a really difficult balancing act to get the correct balance of talent, discipline and leadership on a team. We should look back fondly on the 01-04 teams, but don't forget they were comprised of money-guys too. 01 doesn't happen without Milloy and Law for example, who were clearly more about the money than anything else.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

to update this, there is some speculation that the jets would try to include edwards if they try to swing a deal for marshall

 

[DW Toys]

Wouldnt the counter argument be "Who was our #1 WR before Moss?"
Is it really necessary to have a stud #1?
Look back at the recent past SB Champs, and you dont see that kind of guy often.

Cousin,
Colson? He was very instrumental in getting the Saints to the SB.The Steelers ran so it was going along with your reasoning but I am sure Fitzgerald was a major piece to at least get the Cards to the SB.
Reggie Wayne was major in the Colts SB year.

No I have to disagree. A stud WR makes a huge difference. (See Randy Moss 2007 in our tremendous year)

In the years we won the SB, Branch was instrumental, Brown was instrumental. We do NOT make either of those 3 SB without them. Agreed?

I hate Marshalls' personal life but he is the best talent at a WR along with Fitzgerald, Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, Colson, Wayne and Moss (something can be said about Welker, Ocho Cinco and DeSean Jackson). I will go Fitzgerald, Calvin Johnson and Marshall as the top three WR in the league even though Calvin does not have the numbers. These WRs are game changers.

Here is one caveat. The Chargers say some of their RFA have been contacted. Do you think BB would have inquired about a Malcomb Floyd? We have done business with SD before. Is that the reason he walked away from a perfectly reasonable deal for Boldin? Is it the fact that Floyd is younger. I can't see the Chargers trading Jackson but I would suspect they know they can't keep them both at some point. Was a deal set with A.J. in S.D and Bill said "See if you can get your #1 and your #3 for Floyd and if you can't lets get together Draft day"?
DW Toys

 

[Grizzafted]

andy, i really think there has been an undervaluing of deion branch and david givens. they may have been system guys to some extent, but they were reliable, had great hands, and branch could run. sans moss i don't see players of their caliber on the roster right now. edelman has a big upside and tate showed flashes, but i think the pats will need someone more talented to complement the two of them (presuming, as I think it is reasonable to do, that welker will have a bit of trouble getting his game back up to snuff).

i think it's inevitable that a draft pick will be used this year on a WR. not completely out of the question that it could be 22, if dez bryant somehow drops to that point. if we are assuming that, and the pats have already shown that they're willing to invest 9+ mil in one of the WR positions without sacrificing the ability to build a good defense, i think it could make a lot of sense to bring marshall in. the question is, will he be another adalius thomas me-first kind of player...BB will make that call, and i trust him, but i think a productive and under-check Brandon Marshall would really strengthen the offense in a huge, huge way, and it would be a good way to prepare for Moss' inevitable departure.

and the last few champs had Marques Colston, Santonio Holmes, Plaxico Burress, Reggie Wayne, and Deion Branch. it would be a stretch to imagine that Julian Edelman or Brandon Tate are going to develop into anywhere near the players those guys were. even a Dez Bryant or Golden Tate are hit or miss.

 

[TriplecHamp]

Wouldnt the counter argument be "Who was our #1 WR before Moss?"
Is it really necessary to have a stud #1?
Look back at the recent past SB Champs, and you dont see that kind of guy often.

The NFL changes....Marques Colston, Larry Fitzgerald, Plaxico Burress, Reggie Wayne, not to mention that both times the steelers won was because of their D, they arnt really a big offensive team but when you have the D they have you dont need to be.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Well Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson aren't exactly franchise level QB. You do not NEED any single one thing to win a SB. Some things help more than others and some sacrifices are better than others. There is also not much empirical evidence that Brady gets more out of less or elevates those around him as a separate trait from being a really great QB.

You gotta go back a ways, don't you, and the thing is those wins proved more the fluke than signs of a solid foundation... And elevating those around him is what a really great QB largely does. The don't throw the ball faster, longer, harder...generally they just work harder and set a better tone.

Better talent has a higher chance of better execution. For example you are almost guaranteed Revis will execute, whereas no matter how hard Randall Gay tried his execution was never great.

That's not necessarily true. Better talent often over relies on it rather than working on the details. And Gay has way more jewelry than Revis. To get it all he had to be was good enough consistently enough and affordable enouth in whatever role he was asked to play. He now has another ring as a result of being a guy with just enough talent and the discipline and determination to do his job.

What you want to do is not always what you CAN do. The Bruschi's and Harrison's of the NFL world are diamonds in the rough, not something that you can expect to find. Secondly they have never succomb'd to any outside pressure. They have been incredibly consistent in doing what they feel is best for the team's short-term and long-term well-being.

Unlike some here I fully grasp that. I am also aware, contrary to what Deus may think, that sometimes they screw it up.

IMO it's a mistake to get too nostalgic about year's past and expect the blue-collar aura of the 2001 team to be norm of all superbowl teams. On defense, the main thing was that youth and inexperience led to poor execution and inconsistency. Neither Warren nor Moss will negatively impact this team, they have not since they've been here and will not next season. AD, on the other hand, is seemingly a negative influence and his attitude has probably hurt the team more than just with his poor play on the field.

It's not nostalgia. Youth and inexperience and lack of leadership led to poor execution and inconsistent effort. I don't presume Warren or Moss to negatively impact this team, although they could. What would be preferable though would be for them to positively impact it on and off the field. AD is on a whole other plane because he was paid to be a leader, as were they, and he has chosen to challenge the system as a negative leader (to use Bill's term for negative locker room influences who also don't deliver on field impact proportionate to their cap hit.).

Your points are absolutely valid, albeit overstated, but the best they can do is weed out the true bad seeds like AD. Football is important to most of the guys on the roster, but it's a really difficult balancing act to get the correct balance of talent, discipline and leadership on a team. We should look back fondly on the 01-04 teams, but don't forget they were comprised of money-guys too. 01 doesn't happen without Milloy and Law for example, who were clearly more about the money than anything else.

But at the time they both bought all in. Milloy didn't become a problem until after the ring ceremony. In fact he and Law and Bruschi were instrumental in getting the rest of the crew to buy in. Because they'd been exposed to BB briefly and come to appreciate what he could accomplish with them. And Law was never really a problem because he always delivered and his only issue was his own paycheck and he wasn't ever a vocal locker room presence intent on influencing followers.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Just to be clear, MLR, you're not suggesting that Randall Gay compares favorably to Darrelle Revis in any conceivable way, by any conceivable standard, are you?

 

[MoLewisrocks]

to update this, there is some speculation that the jets would try to include edwards if they try to swing a deal for marshall

LOL Forget the interest rumor has no legs, Josh isn't the village idiot... Even the JETS don't want Edwards, they just tendered him in hopes someone would offer them something for him to recoup what they wasted in trading for him.

 

[Grizzafted]

LOL Forget the interest rumor has no legs, Josh isn't the village idiot... Even the JETS don't want Edwards, they just tendered him in hopes someone would offer them something for him to recoup what they wasted in trading for him.

i'm not a huge fan of edwards, but their first round pick AND edwards is a good value. our first round pick is better. and seattle's is FAR overpaying. at this point nothing would shock me. he could very easily be staying in denver, and some mid-round team could also decide to take a whack at him. i do think, though, that if the Jets get him for their low first round pick and get edwards off the books at the same time, they will have made out like bandits on paper. in reality, it could be a crapshow with marshall berating sanchez a la TO/Garcia.

 

[emoney_33]

You gotta go back a ways, don't you, and the thing is those wins proved more the fluke than signs of a solid foundation... And elevating those around him is what a really great QB largely does. The don't throw the ball faster, longer, harder...generally they just work harder and set a better tone.

You claimed a franchise QB was "needed", your words not mine. I simply refuted that statement of need and have already agreed that a franchise QB helps tremendously obviously.

That's not necessarily true. Better talent often over relies on it rather than working on the details. And Gay has way more jewelry than Revis. To get it all he had to be was good enough consistently enough and affordable enouth in whatever role he was asked to play. He now has another ring as a result of being a guy with just enough talent and the discipline and determination to do his job.

Gay having more jewelry than Revis shows he was on a better TEAM, nothing about his personal contributions to said team. If you start to argue Gay is more likely to help a team win than Revis, then I'm done with this completely because that is just ludicrous. If you replace Gay with Revis on any of the teams that Gay won with, that team still wins (and probably more easily as well).

It's not nostalgia. Youth and inexperience and lack of leadership led to poor execution and inconsistent effort. I don't presume Warren or Moss to negatively impact this team, although they could. What would be preferable though would be for them to positively impact it on and off the field. AD is on a whole other plane because he was paid to be a leader, as were they, and he has chosen to challenge the system as a negative leader (to use Bill's term for negative locker room influences who also don't deliver on field impact proportionate to their cap hit.).

I somewhat agree, although I'm not entering a debate of off the field impact and leadership qualities. It's one of those things we can not possibly ever know, and I'm not the type to get into hypothetical stories of what it could be like.

But at the time they both bought all in. Milloy didn't become a problem until after the ring ceremony. In fact he and Law and Bruschi were instrumental in getting the rest of the crew to buy in. Because they'd been exposed to BB briefly and come to appreciate what he could accomplish with them. And Law was never really a problem because he always delivered and his only issue was his own paycheck and he wasn't ever a vocal locker room presence intent on influencing followers.

They didn't buy all in, they were earning top dollar. AD "bought in" too. I'm not sure where you are going with this but every veteran on the patriots except for AD has "bought in".

I can't even remember right now where this conversation in this thread started, but my argument here is that you don't need a bunch of vocal leaders. You need a handful of respected players that work hard and teach a good work ethic. And we have that in Brady, Faulk, Moss, Wilfork, Warren and others that don't get a lot of media attention. The young kids have to learn by fire, you can't make them experienced with words. They HAVE to go through the struggles, the bad plays, the failures.

 

[muzz]

And his DC that says he had safety help says HI back.

I was referring to the "Quadruple Coverage" quote.
I never said he didn't have ANY help, I am well aware that he did.