Lombardi: The Jets want Brandon Marshall

[emoney_33]

Revis says Hi

And his DC that says he had safety help says HI back.

 

[emoney_33]

Vs one living in the fanboy football of 2007, a season that as December played on it became apparent that fantasy football had a big fat Achilles heel.

The "top QB in football" has shown us 3 times that he does not need stats wideouts to win rings. Sorry you missed those seasons. Of course we need WR help, just not a locker room cancer and not a prima. Spend the effort protecting The Franchise and continuing to add to that young D.

The notion of having a group of good but not great WRs being able to free up money to better other parts of the team and thus making the overall team better is a valid point. However the arguments being made are a little flawed.

This isn't about diva receivers, work ethic, will to win etc... It's simply a case of them being FORTUNATE enough to find and hit on a handful of receivers in that time period. Branch and Givens were drafted, and then overpaid after their rookie contracts by other teams.

You can also use the same type of argument for any and all positions on the field. You can win without Brady, you can take the $10M you are paying Brady and draft a QB or buy a game manager for cheaper money and then invest the rest of it into the defense for instance. But it wouldn't necessarily be wise to do that. Sure you CAN win without them, but that doesn't automatically make being without them the right decision.

The championship teams were built upon MANY things, a unique balance of scouting, draft hits, low-level FA hits, talent, coaching, depth, hard work and luck. There was no precise scientific method that can be repeated. For instance you can't just sit around and hope a Rodney Harrison falls in your lap. You can't rely on hitting on both a Branch and a Givens in the draft. You can't rely on getting an absolute amazing person in Bruschi. etc.. etc... on down the line. The 01 run was magical, the 03-04 was a LOT of things coming together at once. You can't rely on all these things happening at once.

No $10M receiver is preventing the team from drafting this generation's Branch/Givens. So that argument that they need to go out and get that kind of receiver INSTEAD of a $10M receiver doesn't really fly. It also is highly dependent on the current year/situation. There was not a likely or easy chance to upgrade the team more than Moss for 2008-2010. If you can hit on a guy in the draft, then the replacement for that $10M production can be had for a lot cheaper. But RELYING on hitting in the draft is a losing game IMO, where the risk outweighs the benefit.

 

[RyanP421]

Because we don't have that team that can handle character issues any more and we've tried winning in the first half of Brady's career with and without a top tier WR and guess what, we won more when we didn't have one and the money can be better spent on rebuilding the kind of defense and chatacter those teams had. That is what Brady wants to be surrounded with. Not guys he can't trust to show up when the chips are down.

In '06 we made it to the AFCC game with freakin' Reche Caldwell as the #1 and Jabar Gaffney signed off the street as the #2. If that's the worst that happens to this team going forward, I can deal with it. If spending $10M on a diva WR with issues gets me one game farther, I'll pass and spend that money on OL and DL instead and just find Brady some hard nosed football players to throw the ball to. Because I believe in the long run that will get them farther. The reason you draft and develop your own stars is value. Paying a #1 and $10M per for Brandon Marshall wouldn't be a smart move even if he wasn't a character concern. Which is probably why no one is signing him to an offer sheet or even offering Denver something less in trade. If Denver wanted to retain him they would have put the higher tender on him. They want value for him because Josh is also retooling a defense and rebuilding a culture in his locker room and there is no place for him in that mix. And that is something he learned from the guy who got rid of a diva called "She" back in 2001 when we had no WR's beyond an undervalued slot receiver and some UDFA JAG named Patten and a friggin' bowling ball TE who never made a play unless it mattered...

You people make it sound like we are better off without a top WR. Truth is, we won back then despite not having a number 1 WR because the defense was one of, if not the best in the league.

Since we have had a legit number 1 (07-08) we were THIS close to a perfect season, and then we lost Brady for the year in 08, and this past season we were in full on rebuilding mode with the defense. Sure we haven't won with a number 1 WR, but we are a better offense with one. Not sure how that can be argued.

A lot of you live in the past. Oh we won with Givens, let's sign him back and let Moss walk! We don't need a Moss replacement because we won the superbowl years ago with David Givens! Let's forget to mention that back then we won with a defense we simply don't have anymore.

The Patriots need to spend a high pick on a WR (and why not a proven young guy like Marshall), otherwise we are going to have a young defense again in 2011 AND a crappy WR core...The sound of that is horrible.

The sample size is too small for years with having a great number 1 WR. And guess what, in the first year we had one, see what happened? Brady wasn't healthy this past year and it showed. A 100% Brady and a good WR core is very dangerous.

Get Marshall to NE.

 

[RyanP421]

Vs one living in the fanboy football of 2007, a season that as December played on it became apparent that fantasy football had a big fat Achilles heel.

The "top QB in football" has shown us 3 times that he does not need stats wideouts to win rings. Sorry you missed those seasons. Of course we need WR help, just not a locker room cancer and not a prima. Spend the effort protecting The Franchise and continuing to add to that young D.

You claim we are living in 2007, yet you are living in 2004.

Yeah we won some rings without a top wideout, guess what though? We had a TOP DEFENSE. Do we have that now? No?

I take it you want to just get a bunch of journeyman WRs, and get some experience and more talent at D? How about this then? We play out this year, draft some guys on D, let Moss walk, and then in a couple years when we have the veteran leadership we have back then with Bruschi, Vrabs, Ted, etc, then we will compete for the Superbowl.

My way is better though. Let the defense grow, and as it grows, have a powerful offense to go alongside it. You can't play manage the game, and the way we did back in the old days unless you have a powerful defense (we don't have one!)

Welcome to 2010.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

How'd 2007 work out for ya?

I'll take 2004.

By December 2007, teams had caught onto Air Patriots and games were squeakers. The rest including 2009 is history.

 

[BillBelichickFan79]

Ah, the age old Moss argument. Please, quadruple coverage? Are you kidding me? People were even saying he was being tripled in the Ravens game. Not true. Foxworth was lined up with him 1 on 1 for a good amount of that game. Reed played a lot of centerfield and on some plays gave safety help exclusively on Moss.

The Ravens got physical with him at the line, had Suggs hit him coming off the LOS a few times, and took him out of his element. Randy Moss was not even doubled most of the time in that game. And that's without having Welker on the field.

The Ravens played a lot of similar schemes that the Jets played. A lot of press man to man, blitzing LB's and a safety, with one safety playing centerfield. So technically Revis doesn't have safety help on every play. And he really doesn't need it. He completely *****ed Moss.

Watch the playbook breakdown of the Ravens game by NFL Network. You can see Moss is seldom doubled. Reed is occasionally rolled onto his side, but plenty of times Moss couldn't even beat Foxworth 1 on 1.

 

[emoney_33]

How'd 2007 work out for ya?

I'll take 2004.

By December 2007, teams had caught onto Air Patriots and games were squeakers. The rest including 2009 is history.

This is a pretty funny statement. Sure we'll all take the year we won the superbowl... in HINDSIGHT. Anyone who thinks going into a season with the 2007 team doesn't have a higher chance of winning the SB, well I dunno what to tell ya.

If I throw a coin 5 times hard off the wall and get heads 5 times that doesn't mean throwing the coin hard off the wall makes heads a more likely outcome than tails.

 

[Gunnails]

This is a pretty funny statement. Sure we'll all take the year we won the superbowl... in HINDSIGHT. Anyone who thinks going into a season with the 2007 team doesn't have a higher chance of winning the SB, well I dunno what to tell ya.

If I throw a coin 5 times hard off the wall and get heads 5 times that doesn't mean throwing the coin hard off the wall makes heads a more likely outcome than tails.

=====================================================

What kind of coin?

 

[RyanP421]

How'd 2007 work out for ya?

I'll take 2004.

By December 2007, teams had caught onto Air Patriots and games were squeakers. The rest including 2009 is history.

Wait what?

2007 was the best team we have ever seen. It was a fluke that we lost. I don't care that we didn't win it all that year, I still feel like that was the best team I ever saw play. I know some of you will say "you can't be the best if you don't win it all". And that sounds good and all, but simply isn't always true.

The point is, this isn't 2007 or 2004. It's 2010, so we need to adapt to WHAT WE HAVE. And WE DON'T HAVE A DOMINATE DEFENSE RIGHT NOW LIKE WE DID IN 2004, so we can't play like it's 2004, we have to have a better offense.

 

[emoney_33]

Ah, the age old Moss argument. Please, quadruple coverage? Are you kidding me? People were even saying he was being tripled in the Ravens game. Not true. Foxworth was lined up with him 1 on 1 for a good amount of that game. Reed played a lot of centerfield and on some plays gave safety help exclusively on Moss.

They only stopped doubling him when it was 24-0 and they started pinning their ears back and playing loose coverage. That's when Moss starting catching the underneath stuff.

The Ravens got physical with him at the line, had Suggs hit him coming off the LOS a few times, and took him out of his element. Randy Moss was not even doubled most of the time in that game. And that's without having Welker on the field.

Bold-faced lie, and I suppose the OL gave Brady all the time in the world too.

The Ravens played a lot of similar schemes that the Jets played. A lot of press man to man, blitzing LB's and a safety, with one safety playing centerfield. So technically Revis doesn't have safety help on every play. And he really doesn't need it. He completely *****ed Moss.

No one else is stretching the field, do you think the safety is not shading Moss every snap? Revis' DC even said they weren't playing hardly any man-0.

Watch the playbook breakdown of the Ravens game by NFL Network. You can see Moss is seldom doubled. Reed is occasionally rolled onto his side, but plenty of times Moss couldn't even beat Foxworth 1 on 1.

link me

 

[RyanP421]

This is a pretty funny statement. Sure we'll all take the year we won the superbowl... in HINDSIGHT. Anyone who thinks going into a season with the 2007 team doesn't have a higher chance of winning the SB, well I dunno what to tell ya.

If I throw a coin 5 times hard off the wall and get heads 5 times that doesn't mean throwing the coin hard off the wall makes heads a more likely outcome than tails.

I'm with ya man. Explaining this to some of the people here is like trying to teach a baby how to be president. We are in 2010. Funny how the people claiming some are living in 2007 are actually the ones living in the past.

I want the Pats to get a WR because WE NEED ONE. Our defense isn't good enough to get by without one right now. Will it be in a couple years once our defense grows? Maybe, but we don't know that yet, so as of right now and the next couple years, we need a good WR core to take advantage of the window we have with Brady.

This is no longer 2004 where we can manage the game with an amazing defense. We will have a solid D, no doubt, but we NEED AN OFFENSE. And the thought of Moss leaving a GIANT hole in the WR core after this season is freightening UNLESS we draft a capable replacement OR if we are going to draft one high, we might as well use that pick for Brandon Marshall who would seamlessly fit into our offense and be an absolute animal with Brady throwing him the ball.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

its a story of 2 offenses......2004 versus 2007......forget the super bowls for a moment

until mid november, the 2007 offense rocked........BUT after mid november, the 2004 offense was actually more productive....and in the playoffs, both the offense and defense were better in 2004....against better teams

both the 2004 and 2007 offenses were held under 20 points once......it just happened at the wrong time in 2007

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Wait what?

2007 was the best team we have ever seen. It was a fluke that we lost. I don't care that we didn't win it all that year, I still feel like that was the best team I ever saw play. I know some of you will say "you can't be the best if you don't win it all". And that sounds good and all, but simply isn't always true.

The point is, this isn't 2007 or 2004. It's 2010, so we need to adapt to WHAT WE HAVE. And WE DON'T HAVE A DOMINATE DEFENSE RIGHT NOW LIKE WE DID IN 2004, so we can't play like it's 2004, we have to have a better offense.

EXCEPT that adding aholes won't make us better.

 

[BillBelichickFan79]

They only stopped doubling him when it was 24-0 and they started pinning their ears back and playing loose coverage. That's when Moss starting catching the underneath stuff.


Bold-faced lie, and I suppose the OL gave Brady all the time in the world too.


No one else is stretching the field, do you think the safety is not shading Moss every snap? Revis' DC even said they weren't playing hardly any man-0.

link me

The Ravens come out of the gates with their ears pinned back. It's their style of defense. They are always aggressive and try to get after the QB by blitzing and shooting gaps.

You and others have claimed in the past Moss was tripled in that game b/c of the lack of a threat across from him. He was not. Foxworth played press man against him, and on some occasions there was a safety shading Moss' side of the field, and on other plays it was man to man with Reed playing centerfield. The OL struggled a lot no one will deny that, but Foxworth shut down Moss without much help on a lot of plays. Yet the excuses will continue to be made by fans for Moss.

No one in the league plays man-0. And on plays with 1 safety playing CF, I'd actually think Rhodes would shading more towards Lito's side because he was abysmal and got toasted a lot more often. Moss had a ton of trouble getting of the jam of Revis, and he could not separate from him or outrun him. The Jets probably could have played man-0 on Moss if they wanted to. That's how good Revis is and how ineffective he makes Moss.

If I were the Jets I would have just doubled Moss with Lito and Rhodes on every play, and put Revis on Welker b/c he's probably one of the only guys in the league that could stay with Welker well in and out of his cuts.

The thing I hate about Moss is how easily he can be taken out of a game at times. Against the best corner in the league like Revis I can understand it. But against a guy like Foxworth, who is an average CB, Moss should not have these kind of difficulties. Yes their pass rush combined with our OL had an effect, but fact is Moss did nothing all game until picking up garbage yards at the end of the game. I hate how when teams get physical with him and jam/bump him at the line he struggles to get going.

We'll obviously never see eye to eye on this. I don't buy the "no one else is stretching the field" thought process. It's moot to keep going back and forth.

Regardless, I think we can both agree that we want Moss to have a great year in 2010 and help the Pats make a deep run in the playoffs.

 

[Jangles]

Vs one living in the fanboy football of 2007, a season that as December played on it became apparent that fantasy football had a big fat Achilles heel.

The "top QB in football" has shown us 3 times that he does not need stats wideouts to win rings. Sorry you missed those seasons. Of course we need WR help, just not a locker room cancer and not a prima. Spend the effort protecting The Franchise and continuing to add to that young D.

lol

Brady is good but he was going nowhere fast without an incredible defense

Apparently you forgot that the current D is a joke that gets shredded by even mediocre QBs.

Brady + WR that can catch + great defense = SB champs

Brady + 1 WR and hopefully a second + poor defense =/= SB champs

 

[emoney_33]

You and others have claimed in the past Moss was tripled in that game b/c of the lack of a threat across from him.

I have not.

Foxworth played press man against him, and on some occasions there was a safety shading Moss' side of the field, and on other plays it was man to man with Reed playing centerfield. The OL struggled a lot no one will deny that, but Foxworth shut down Moss without much help on a lot of plays. Yet the excuses will continue to be made by fans for Moss.

The excuses? I wonder what exactly Reed was covering, since Moss was the only thing that resembled a deep threat. It wasn't until it was 24-0 when they started playing back. If you honestly think that Foxworth, or even Revis, was covering Moss on an island then that's your problem. I really wish we could get coach's tapes to shut down these silly notions that Moss can ever easily be taken out of a game.

No one in the league plays man-0. And on plays with 1 safety playing CF, I'd actually think Rhodes would shading more towards Lito's side because he was abysmal and got toasted a lot more often. Moss had a ton of trouble getting of the jam of Revis, and he could not separate from him or outrun him. The Jets probably could have played man-0 on Moss if they wanted to. That's how good Revis is and how ineffective he makes Moss.

Revis sticks on EVERY receiver in the NFL. You using him to prove anything about Moss is curious. Second of all, do you really think Rhodes was shading the side of the field Aiken was on rather than Moss?

The thing I hate about Moss is how easily he can be taken out of a game at times.

Well this is just a made up crap based on your expectations of perfection.

Against the best corner in the league like Revis I can understand it. But against a guy like Foxworth, who is an average CB, Moss should not have these kind of difficulties. Yes their pass rush combined with our OL had an effect, but fact is Moss did nothing all game until picking up garbage yards at the end of the game.

Brady threw the ball to Moss how many times? You want to blame Moss when he "forces" it to him and then blame Moss when he doesn't. The bottom line is you just want to blame Moss. The Ravens main goal on defense was to stop Moss, they had really NO other worries. The game started out 7-0, then a run, screen and strip sack and it's 14-0. A sack, a run an INC to Aiken (trying desperately to sell Aiken as a threat), punt. Then short completion, run, short INC, INT forcing it to Aiken. Ravens turn it to 21-0. Run, INT to Aiken. It's 24-0.

Just like that, only 8 dropbacks before it was 24-0. 2 were sacks, 2 were INT to Aiken, 1 was a screen, 2 were short passes, 1 was an incomplete deep to Aiken.

The Patriots were forced into a one dimensional team early, the OL struggled, and our only threat was ONE hurting receiver. And we'll just completely forget about the separated shoulder.

I hate how when teams get physical with him and jam/bump him at the line he struggles to get going.

Well this is not the case, so you are hating fiction.
So most teams are just morons and don't bump him at the line?

We'll obviously never see eye to eye on this. I don't buy the "no one else is stretching the field" thought process. It's moot to keep going back and forth.

Regardless, I think we can both agree that we want Moss to have a great year in 2010 and help the Pats make a deep run in the playoffs.

There is no one single argument. No one stretching the field is just one of many factors that are playing against him. You point to safeties covering center field, well who the hell do you think the safety is going to shade when the ball is snapped and they see Moss running on one side and Sam Aiken on the other? I mean let's get real here. Teams could use one deep coverage because Moss was the only real threat. But again that's not the ONLY factor going against Moss in the Ravens game.

Can you find me one WR who excels against good defenses with 0 other deep threats? Hell even Fitzgerald "struggled" down the stretch when he had the almighty Boldin on the other side of the field. Newsflash, good teams can limit any single wide receiver.

 

[Jangles]

EXCEPT that adding aholes won't make us better.

Yeah

because an ******* has never won a SB ever

No team, ever, with a player with a bad attitude has ever done well.

Are you kidding?

 

[Grizzafted]

Those bolded parts are crazy. Who says Marshall can be a 15-20 TD a year player? And there is no way Welker is faster then Edelman.

he caught 10 last year with kyle orton. 20 is a bit high. but 15 a year is entirely reasonable with brady throwing him the football.

 

[Grizzafted]

everybody talking about "how'd 07 work for ya"...

PRETTY ^#%$@ WELL ACTUALLY.

if not for a total psychological breakdown on the team's part and an amazing temporary inability to block on the OL, WE ALMOST WENT 19-0! yes, having a number one WR and a talented corps of receivers was, in fact, a very good thing for the NE patriots. the problems this year were that A) Moss is slowing down, and B) the defense just couldn't get off the field.

besides, i'm sick of this line that the early 2000s teams were subpar receivers. branch and givens and brown were VERY good wideouts. branch and givens got hurt after leaving town, and brown tapered off in his career, but for a while he was like welker. always there on 3rd down. and i remember deion branch as a stellar wideout. perhaps not worth 8 mill a year, but those weren't JAG's..

i mean you can't have it both ways and say, "oh the talent on the defensive side of the ball was always underrated by a star-obsessed media" and then not give credit to the players on offense as well. the Patriots put up points in those years. period.

 

[emoney_33]

he caught 10 last year with kyle orton. 20 is a bit high. but 15 a year is entirely reasonable with brady throwing him the football.

Since 2002, only 6 times has there been a receiver with 15+ TDs. 2 of those were Randy Moss. There were 0 in 02, 05, 06, 08 and 09.

15 TD is not a reasonable expectation for anyone.