Kraft Orchids Case - Prosecuters Want a Tug Rule?

[Patjew]

Meh. I've been involved with philanthropy and wealthy people for a couple of decades now. I'm not impressed by wealthy people who donate money and make sure people know about it. It has no affect on their actual lives, and if it did in any meaningful way, many of them wouldn't do it. They get a lot of praise for it, which many of them seem to crave, because being wealthy is a challenge to one's self esteem.

The ones who are 1) quiet about it, and 2) thoughtful and strategic about it, I appreciate. Some of them are even likable.

What I am impressed with, and what help keeps my faith in humanity, is the social security widow who gives $10 every month to the local animal shelter, or food kitchen, or similar. Those people actually go without something simply because they know someone else has less or needs it more, and refuse to forget about it. That's impressive.

Based on what you’ve said, I think you would have appreciated Myra. I met her only once but from that one time and from everything I’ve heard and read about her, she seemed like the real deal. Just a kind woman.

My guess is that Bob has good intentions and sometimes his **** and liver and late-age crisis gets in the way of it.

 

[Joker]

Agreed. People point to enforcement failing as reason to legalize, in both of these and other environments, without actually making the argument that legalization is a better alternative. They begin with the assumption that legalization is superior to flawed enforcement policies and beg the question throughout their arguments. It's a logical catastrophe from beginning to end, but when has that ever stopped people from lobbying for the right to enjoy their sin of choice without (legal) consequences?

Yeah...put people away for GENERATIONS for possessing that evil maryjoowanner, all the while standing by drinking your ****in' bourbon cokktails and smoking Lucky Strikes while hundreds of thousands of Americans DIE from tobacco every year and there's 50,000 plus DEATHS associated with drunk driving alone, a year. Yeah, I love country club scumbags like you....you have all the answers, like a true social justice warrior hypocrite.Yeah, how dare people lobby to END the criminalization of MILLIONS OF LIVES for the temerity to even entertain the "sin" of their choice, while you, the sub-moronic 21st century replica Solon pontificate from on high about what should and what should not be permissible.

 

[BTTA]

FWIW, we took a family trip to Copenhagen recently (New Year's Eve there is worth the trip alone). We took a "local beer pub" tour which included a walk by and description of one of the houses where people go to legally take drugs. There are nurses on staff, clean needles, social works to help people who want to break the addiction, and more. Impressive to say the least. It gave me a lot to think about.

I'm not nearly as certain about any of this as most people posting here seem to be.

 

[DarrylS]

Pretty sure most of us are just still mad about Deflategate.

Not sure why, always felt that Kraft fell on the sword to protect Brady and that backfired.... what is the sense of being mad at a guy who salvaged the Pats, built a wonderful facility and allowed BB and crew to build this dynasty???... That did not make sense to me then and makes less sense now... always thought the intent of Deflategate was to get at BB, when that backfired Goodell and his minions were backed into a corner and needed a scapegoat... Brady was the next best thing.

Kraft doing something really stupid now has nothing to do with Deflategate.... James Orthwein anyone???

 

[Huckleberry1]

I still believe Goodell’s real reason for going after Brady was to show how unreasonable his role as judge , jury, and executioner can be. When the CBA comes back up for renegotiation the league is going to try to use it as a chip to get the player’s to agree to an 18 game season, which is the holy grail to the owners. Hopefully the players will tell them to shove their 18 game season up their greedy asses.

 

[Antdawg]

Not sure why, always felt that Kraft fell on the sword to protect Brady and that backfired.... what is the sense of being mad at a guy who salvaged the Pats, built a wonderful facility and allowed BB and crew to build this dynasty???... That did not make sense to me then and makes less sense now... always thought the intent of Deflategate was to get at BB, when that backfired Goodell and his minions were backed into a corner and needed a scapegoat... Brady was the next best thing.

Kraft doing something really stupid now has nothing to do with Deflategate.... James Orthwein anyone???

I would like to know exactly what Kraft could have done? Owners aren't really in a position to hold up two middle fingers to the league and tell them to stick it where the sun don't shine. The league, with the Wells report, was obviously hellbent on hitting the Patriots. Kraft flailing his arms wasn't going to stop that.

 

[neuronet]

I would like to know exactly what Kraft could have done? Owners aren't really in a position to hold up two middle fingers to the league and tell them to stick it where the sun don't shine. The league, with the Wells report, was obviously hellbent on hitting the Patriots. Kraft flailing his arms wasn't going to stop that.

It would have been nice if he had supported Brady from the start, but ultimately he showed pretty strong support once he realized Brady was getting screwed.

 

[Antdawg]

It would have been nice if he had supported Brady from the start, but ultimately he showed pretty strong support once he realized Brady was getting screwed.

So, he was supposed to support Brady without waiting for some of the facts to come out?

 

[Ring 6]

I would like to know exactly what Kraft could have done? Owners aren't really in a position to hold up two middle fingers to the league and tell them to stick it where the sun don't shine. The league, with the Wells report, was obviously hellbent on hitting the Patriots. Kraft flailing his arms wasn't going to stop that.

We have been through this many times. Kraft had many options other than accepting what is best for the 32.

 

[Simpelton]

We have been through this many times. Kraft had many options other than accepting what is best for the 32.

And every one of those options would have felt good, accomplished nothing, and risked hurting either the Patriots franchise or Kraft personally in some way or another. I'm not surprised he made a calm assessment of those options and chose not to bother.

 

[Ring 6]

And every one of those options would have felt good, accomplished nothing, and risked hurting either the Patriots franchise or Kraft personally in some way or another. I'm not surprised he made a calm assessment of those options and chose not to bother.

You don’t know that.

He had options at his disposal that were his right to explore. Tacit admission wasn’t the best choice for anyone, except Goodell.

 

[Simpelton]

You don’t know that.

Of course I don't know that, neither did he, neither do you. The fact is that you're speculating, and if you'd like to pass your speculation off as knowledge, that's your perogative but it's just as stupid as if I tried to do it.

The fact is this whole facet of the conversation is speculation based on a what-if. "You don't know that" is kinda intrinsically interwoven into the whole exercise, making it the single lamest possible rebuttal.

You speculate, without knowledge, that there were other options Kraft might have tried to defend Brady.

I speculate that Kraft would decide that "options" that accomplish nothing and risk injury to his team or himself are not options, and that the only remaining plausible actions on his part were this sort of "option," not seriously worth exploring.

Neither of us knows anything. There's nothing to know. The fact is that all of this might as well be a creative writing exercise. Get your Bob Kraft fanfics everyone! Let's waste some serious time! It's the offseason anyway, like we really have anything better to do.

If you want to argue that my speculation is somehow invalid, I'd at least like you to name one SPECIFIC option Kraft could have tried, that is not an "option" under the terms I laid out above.

 

[Ring 6]

Of course I don't know that, neither did he, neither do you. The fact is that you're speculating, and if you'd like to pass your speculation off as knowledge, that's your perogative but it's just as stupid as if I tried to do it.

No I am not speculating at all. There were many things he could have pursued and he did not.
It’s like saying when you are down 28-3 you should give up because you are only speculating that you could come back.

The fact is this whole facet of the conversation is speculation based on a what-if. "You don't know that" is kinda intrinsically interwoven into the whole exercise, making it the single lamest possible rebuttal.

I am not concluding that what he could do would work, I am concluding that he had options and imo a responsibility to pursue them.
A few examples:
File an appeal
Present a rebutttl to the bogus wells report (at a time when it mattered in the process of objecting to the findings, not a rhetorical bs publicity stunt)
Testify for Brady
Not say “we expect all players that deserve to be on the field to be there” when asked if Brady will be.
Not publicly hug Goodell

You speculate, without knowledge, that there were other options Kraft might have tried to defend Brady.

I just named 3 that are not speculation.

I speculate that Kraft would decide that "options" that accomplish nothing and risk injury to his team or himself are not options, and that the only remaining plausible actions on his part were this sort of "option," not seriously worth exploring.

Yet there is no reasonable basis for that speculation.

Neither of us knows anything. There's nothing to know.

Literally astatement of genius

The fact is that all of this might as well be a creative writing exercise. Get your Bob Kraft fanfics everyone! Let's waste some serious time! It's the offseason anyway, like we really have anything better to do.

What? So any opinion anyone has on anything is a waste of time? Why are you here?

If you want to argue that my speculation is somehow invalid, I'd at least like you to name one SPECIFIC option Kraft could have tried, that is not an "option" under the terms I laid out above.

That’s exactly what I did. Just a few examples. There are more.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

 

[Simpelton]

I am not concluding that what he could do would work, I am concluding that he had options and imo a responsibility to pursue them.
A few examples:
File an appeal

He did that. Fun Fact: The case was settled in the US Court of Appeals.

He didn't pursue it to the SC, but there's no guarantee the SC would have granted certiorari anyway. Appeals courts don't have to take every case sent their way, and the Supreme Court is particularly selective, perferring decisions that might set or change major Constitutional precedents. Since there was no pressing precedential issue worth the Supreme Court's time, the odds that the SC would even take the case extremely low. He probably talked to his lawyers about a Supreme Court appeal and they talked him out of it.

See here's the difference between you and me. I assume that a rich man with a legal team and months to work with probably explored his options and made an informed choice on how far to push his part of the fight -- remembering that he has to be able to deal with the league after it's all over.

Pursuing the case as far as the Federal Court of Appeals is a pretty rigorous defense all things considered anyway IMHO.

Present a rebutttl to the bogus wells report (at a time when it mattered in the process of objecting to the findings, not a rhetorical bs publicity stunt)

He actually did that. He even demanded an apology.

Testify for Brady

Testify about what? The legal case at hand really didn't revolve around anything the owner would be qualified to testify about. The most he could do is say under oath that he wasn't aware of any tampering with the footballs, and there are people much closer to the ground who could say that far more authoritatively.

Not say “we expect all players that deserve to be on the field to be there” when asked if Brady will be.

I see. Not a fan of veiled shots at the league. You want a roaring rampage of revenge. I can respect that, but if you can't tell that he's saying Brady deserves to be on the field I don't know what to say.

Not publicly hug Goodell

Like it or not, owners have to work with the commissioner. This is one of the "options" I was discussing above -- feels good, accomplishes nothing, possibly does damage to his ability to represent his team.

I just named 3 that are not speculation.

Not only were they all speculation, 2 of them were revisionist history.

 

[Antdawg]

He did that. Fun Fact: The case was settled in the US Court of Appeals.

He didn't pursue it to the SC, but there's no guarantee the SC would have granted certiorari anyway. Appeals courts don't have to take every case sent their way, and the Supreme Court is particularly selective, perferring decisions that might set or change major Constitutional precedents. Since there was no pressing precedential issue worth the Supreme Court's time, the odds that the SC would even take the case extremely low. He probably talked to his lawyers about a Supreme Court appeal and they talked him out of it.

See here's the difference between you and me. I assume that a rich man with a legal team and months to work with probably explored his options and made an informed choice on how far to push his part of the fight -- remembering that he has to be able to deal with the league after it's all over.

Pursuing the case as far as the Federal Court of Appeals is a pretty rigorous defense all things considered anyway IMHO.



He actually did that. He even demanded an apology.





Testify about what? The legal case at hand really didn't revolve around anything the owner would be qualified to testify about. The most he could do is say under oath that he wasn't aware of any tampering with the footballs, and there are people much closer to the ground who could say that far more authoritatively.



I see. Not a fan of veiled shots at the league. You want a roaring rampage of revenge. I can respect that, but if you can't tell that he's saying Brady deserves to be on the field I don't know what to say.



Like it or not, owners have to work with the commissioner. This is one of the "options" I was discussing above -- feels good, accomplishes nothing, possibly does damage to his ability to represent his team.



Not only were they all speculation, 2 of them were revisionist history.

I could not have said it any better. And there were reports of Brady hugging Kraft the day after this story about the massage parlor broke. So, in other words, if TB12 can get over it, we should be able to. Nothing Kraft could have done better regarding Deflategate. Once the league dropped $2.5 million on the Wells Report, the die was cast.

 

[Ring 6]

He did that. Fun Fact: The case was settled in the US Court of Appeals.

Kraft didn’t file an appeal. You are talking about the NFLPA going to court.

He didn't pursue it to the SC, but there's no guarantee the SC would have granted certiorari anyway. Appeals courts don't have to take every case sent their way, and the Supreme Court is particularly selective, perferring decisions that might set or change major Constitutional precedents. Since there was no pressing precedential issue worth the Supreme Court's time, the odds that the SC would even take the case extremely low. He probably talked to his lawyers about a Supreme Court appeal and they talked him out of it.

You need to get your facts straight. Kraft filed nothing, nor even a letter of disagreement with Goodells findings.

See here's the difference between you and me. I assume that a rich man with a legal team and months to work with probably explored his options and made an informed choice on how far to push his part of the fight -- remembering that he has to be able to deal with the league after it's all over.

He publicly announced that the team would not contest the findings or penalties within days or even hours of them being given.

Pursuing the case as far as the Federal Court of Appeals is a pretty rigorous defense all things considered anyway IMHO.

I agree. But kraft didn’t do that.
In fact he declined to testify in the case Brady took that far.

He actually did that. He even demanded an apology.

He accepted the penalties without appeal.

Testify about what? The legal case at hand really didn't revolve around anything the owner would be qualified to testify about. The most he could do is say under oath that he wasn't aware of any tampering with the footballs, and there are people much closer to the ground who could say that far more authoritatively.

Brady’s legal team after many months of preparation asked him to. As you said above that means something.

I see. Not a fan of veiled shots at the league. You want a roaring rampage of revenge. I can respect that, but if you can't tell that he's saying Brady deserves to be on the field I don't know what to say.

That was the opposite. They asked if brady would be on the field. He didn’t say yes, he said the players that deserve to be will be, implying a question as to whether Brady deserved to.

Like it or not, owners have to work with the commissioner. This is one of the "options" I was discussing above -- feels good, accomplishes nothing, possibly does damage to his ability to represent his team.

Bend over Bob saying thank you for the shafting. Yeah that’s really gonna help the franchise.
Goodell needed to manufacture a victim that people would support him against. He targeted Tom Brady and kraft said thank you, let’s hug it out.

Not only were they all speculation, 2 of them were revisionist history.

Nothing was revisionist except you thinking kraft filed Brady’s lawsuit.
There is no speculation whatsoever in those real actions he could have taken.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

I agree...for me too that was the only reason...Pat Patriot was allready "out" when Kraft became the owner

All these decades as a Pats fan and it never once occurred to me that Pat Patriot was gay

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT:

EVERYONE HERE WHO HAS EVER BEEN TO A STRIP CLUB NEEDS TO GO TO THEIR LOCAL POLICE DEPARTMEMT AND TURN THEMSELF IN FOR SEX TRAFFICKING. PLEAS OF INNOCENCE WILL NOT BE TOLERATED OR ACCEPTED.

OK, I'm toast.
And now lots of the NE Patriots at least from past years are goners too. A certain RI strip club was very popular with Patriots players after Smithfield, RI practices.

 

[Huckleberry1]

OK, I'm toast.
And now lots of the NE Patriots at least from past years are goners too. A certain RI strip club was very popular with Patriots players after Smithfield, RI practices.

Same here, looking at years of incarceration.