Kraft acknowledges drafting woes, says approach is changing

[moosekill]

Then why such disdain (not you) for folks pointing out his mistakes?

Look, the Brady vs Belichick discussion will go on for years, even after they both retire. NFLN will make a documentary about it. It's truly odd that everyone in the Country wants to talk about it except for the football forum where they have been the main topic for 20 years.

Why do you think that is?

Everyone on the football board doesn't want to talk about it in every thread. The Bill haters, like you come on and add nothing relevant to the current thread and the discussion quickly degrades. Unfortunately, most of us, except for Biffins, wish the mods would police the threads a bit more to keep them on topic.

 

[venecol]

Everyone on the football board doesn't want to talk about it in every thread. The Bill haters, like you come on and add nothing relevant to the current thread and the discussion quickly degrades. Unfortunately, most of us, except for Biffins, wish the mods would police the threads a bit more to keep them on topic.

Lol, this is on topic. Kraft said that because of drafting woes, approach is changing. He also said the record breaking spending in FAcy was to address the drafting woes. All of this is related to GM decisions that resulted in the team going 7-9 last season. Just a year ago, the biggest GM decision in 20 years, resulted in the Goat walking into FAcy, which also resulted in team going 7-9.

This is all tied together and completely relevant to this thread. It's only been a year since the decision not 10, or 5, or even 2. It's still fresh information and has nothing to do with "hating" anyone. You just don't want to hear that Bill's decisions have put the team in the position that it's in. This is relevant to all pats fans. I'm willing to wait another year (2022) to see what he can do, but that doesn't mean I need to STFU because ball washers like you don't want to hear it. Get a grip man, this is a football forum not your group therapy session.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

I'll put it this way: Brady was declining, in pure physical attributes. Still is. He's just created ways to compete, ways to maximize his physical tools despite a finite physical upside, and ways to maximize those around him -- the leadership aspect -- because it's a team game and his own individual jollies come from the team winning.

It is so good for Brady that early in his career he was the QB who was told "just don't lose the game," and that he was the one who won games, and Manning was the stat whore. He never got a taste for tabulating different pages in the record books and talking about how he SHOULD be considered the greatest ever even though he never won anything.

So yeah he declined all the way to needing a stacked offense to win the SB at age 43. You could do worse.

 

[amfootball]

I'll put it this way: Brady was declining, in pure physical attributes. Still is. He's just created ways to compete, ways to maximize his physical tools despite a finite physical upside, and ways to maximize those around him -- the leadership aspect -- because it's a team game and his own individual jollies come from the team winning.

It is so good for Brady that early in his career he was the QB who was told "just don't lose the game," and that he was the one who won games, and Manning was the stat whore. He never got a taste for tabulating different pages in the record books and talking about how he SHOULD be considered the greatest ever even though he never won anything.

So yeah he declined all the way to needing a stacked offense to win the SB at age 43. You could do worse.

LOL. 40 TDs is declining? 10 TDs in the post-season, the most by any QB is declining? SB MVP is declining?

 

[Love The Drake]

R

LOL. 40 TDs is declining? 10 TDs in the post-season, the most by any QB is declining? SB MVP is declining?

I think in time we Will see the TB 12 vitamins on the banned substance list.
Tom’s found some ingredients that are keeping him in peek shape and it’s not natural. It’s got a bad smell to it though. I truly believe this is why Bill wanted Guerrero away from the rest of the team.

 

[Wozzy]

QB’s barely get touched anymore, it’s not avocado ice cream.

 

[venecol]

R

I think in time we Will see the TB 12 vitamins on the banned substance list.
Tom’s found some ingredients that are keeping him in peek shape and it’s not natural. It’s got a bad smell to it though. I truly believe this is why Bill wanted Guerrero away from the rest of the team.

This guy already knows the secret ingredient. It's already out dude. Keep up. Lmao

 

[moosekill]

Regardless of what anyone thinks, at some point Tom is going to retire. If he had stayed with the Patriots last year they would not have won the superbowl. If he had stayed through this year, we would still have had money to make the team better in free agency, but no where near as much, so we would probably have been a marginal playoff team again. Would he have happily stayed with the team for 3 more years if they weren't in the playoffs all three years? At some point you have to rip the bandaid off. It sucks, it happened, move on. He probably would have already retired if he was stuck with the rebuilding patriots.

 

[venecol]

Regardless of what anyone thinks, at some point Tom is going to retire.

This is a well thought out and logical statement. How can anyone disagree?

 

[Betterthanmost]

R

I think in time we Will see the TB 12 vitamins on the banned substance list.
Tom’s found some ingredients that are keeping him in peek shape and it’s not natural. It’s got a bad smell to it though. I truly believe this is why Bill wanted Guerrero away from the rest of the team.

This is some dangerous territory you are entering buddy. In saying that, I have never voiced or written out that I suspect BB may harbor such sentiments as well, but should such a scenario occur, everybody's legacy will be destroyed and the Patriot's achievements will all be reduced to nothing. Because of this, I don't want it to happen and want Brady to retire before he becomes the next Lance. When Jules got popped, I feared the worse.

 

[Calhoun44]

Then why such disdain (not you) for folks pointing out his mistakes?

Look, the Brady vs Belichick discussion will go on for years, even after they both retire. NFLN will make a documentary about it. It's truly odd that everyone in the Country wants to talk about it except for the football forum where they have been the main topic for 20 years.

Why do you think that is?

I don't know why others don't want to talk about it, but for me, I feel like it is a really silly discussion, because I don't think there ever will be an answer based on fact. It is all opinion and it seems to me that most people have already expressed their opinions and there is not really much else to say. Yet, here I am talking about it. Haha

I will re-state my opinion of it: Both BB and Brady had the two most important roles in helping the Patriots win all their SB's. I think they are both the GOAT's at their jobs and I am 100% stoked that they both did it together with my favorite football team for 20 years. I have no interest in blaming Brady for not winning a SB every year because of some mistake he made, or BB for a decision he made, to show that one of them was more important than the other. It just doesn't do anything for me. I will defend them both against criticism that is aimed at showing that they were not as important as the other.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Wasn't' there a guy that was great against the run and when he came out of college couldn't cover for beans; ended up going somewhere else...terrible should've never been drafted right?

(wait, that guy was one Patrick Chung - still think we should've just cut bait and never brought back the S that could only excel in run support as a young player?)

The patience and understand of player growth arc round here - literally amazing.

I'm not sure if you remember Chung's scouting report out of Oregon. I do. He was billed as a versatile swiss army knife box safety. Dugger is not like Chung. I think Dugger wasn't great against defending TE routes. I hope he can improve. We need an elite starting SS with Chung retired.

 

[Betterthanmost]

I don't know why others don't want to talk about it, but for me, I feel like it is a really silly discussion, because I don't think there ever will be an answer based on fact. It is all opinion and it seems to me that most people have already expressed their opinions and there is not really much else to say. Yet, here I am talking about it. Haha

I will re-state my opinion of it: Both BB and Brady had the two most important roles in helping the Patriots win all their SB's. I think they are both the GOAT's at their jobs and I am 100% stoked that they both did it together with my favorite football team for 20 years. I have no interest in blaming Brady for not winning a SB every year because of some mistake he made, or BB for a decision he made, to show that one of them was more important than the other. It just doesn't do anything for me. I will defend them both against criticism that is aimed at showing that they were not as important as the other.

I like and respect your approach. I wish I was the same but I am too entrenched in team BB to care or want to change. I have asked myself the why and the simple answer was that I never really liked Brady that much. It is ungrateful of me but I can't shake it off.

 

[PScottman]

I'm not sure if you remember Chung's scouting report out of Oregon. I do.

Obviously you missed the point entirely if you're quoting the scouting report from college.

Apparently players never improve, add skillsets, or otherwise once drafted - everything must be judged based on college scouting, draft and draft position alone without any ability to examine players that are not fully developed coming out of college but do develop over their first couple years in the NFL into solid pros over time.

Chung was NOT an accomplished cover DB in his first couple years after college, he was, in fact, let go to seek employ elsewhere (a rare pulled the plug too early vice too late in development mistake by this staff) because he was not. Since his return, he's improved as a cover guy not so much due to athleticism and speed, but instead physicality at the line changing routes and timing, using the defensive scheme, and other veteran and mental understanding skills he simply DID NOT HAVE coming out of college to be a better player later in his career. For many around here Duggar is the same "terrible draft pick" that cant cover (and in their minds never will because that supports their narrow world view) and that's that.

No context, no understanding of a variety of player types: peaking early, late bloomers, never wills, etc. Just "Get rid of the bum and the guy that drafted him too so I can say the same thing about the next guys."

 

[TheRainMaker]

Your understanding of team dynamics and how all players influence the others in their ability to perform is...interesting.

You expect every player to be a five tool superstar or they are a bust. It doesn't work that way. Great teams rely on several two and three tool role players to maximize those few five tool stars each team has. Most teams are starting probably 15-18 role players for every "star" including the ones that won multiple Patriots Super Bowls.

Free agency didn't REPLACE all those players you named - it added to them. You're an ends of the spectrum guy "Awesome - Sucks" - there is no in-between, no middle class, and no role players contributing.

If Judon is the five tool star the paperwork and past performance says don't you think that makes those other players "show much" when he's the one game planned for and they can just play? You also myopically discount rotation, situation, and injury all critical factors in building an entire team. A third and long with High, Judon, Wino and Uche all on the field isn't concerning to an opposing offensive line?

I'm not saying they're all superstars, but they're definitively not Jordan Richards either. As was said earlier, a couple starters per draft is good expectation management and they don't have to be super starters either. I'd take a Lawrence Guy type starter every draft if every second or third year the team hit on a five-tool star somewhere in the draft or free agency process. I don't get the same vibe from you - it's all or nuthin' I think from your perspective.

Here are the facts: aside from Jake Bailey and Gunner, Bill has not drafted ONE Pro Bowl/All Pro player since Jamie Collins in 2013. That’s really bad and there’s no way getting around that.

Teams build through the draft because of how cost effective the players are. FA is for signing a couple blue chip talents to put your team over the top - not to build it.

If Uche, Jennings, Winovich had a standout year, why would Bill throw out $14M per year on another player at that position?

If the rookie TE’s were worth a damn, he doesn’t go after the two best TE’s on the market.

If Harry was worth a damn, they don’t over pay for Agohlor.

The usual argument against my criticism is that I expect every pick to be a “Pro Bowler”’. What I expect are competent to solid starters who might not be elite and an occasional elite Pro Bowl/All Pro talent which isn’t too much to ask.

Yes, they pick late. But we’ve seen countless times Bill pass up talent for guys drafted earlier than expected and then the “hindsight” card is thrown out as the next excuse.

Chris Simms said what many of complain about, too much value is put into character and brains rather than pure talent. In his his short time with the Pats, he thought it was alarming the type of guys Bill brought in. If he was thinking that, you can bet your a** Tom thought that.

And I already know the next excuse that they went to 10 Super Bowls wining 6. That main cog in that machine is gone now.

 

[Deus Irae]

I'll put it this way: Brady was declining, in pure physical attributes. Still is.

What physical attributes showed decline?

1. His arm is still clearly strong. Are you saying it's lost something, despite last year seeming (just saying seeming, not clearly or anything definitive) to refute that notion?
2. His pocket mobility is still clearly as good as anyone in the league. Are you saying it's down a bit?
3. His out of the pocket running has always sucked. Are you saying it's even worse?
4. Is it another, unlisted physical attribute? Is so, what's the decline?

I ask because last year, post-bye week, sure made it seem as if reports of decline were inaccurate. Last year, post-bye week and through the playoffs, Brady was probably the best quarterback in the NFL, so I'm curious as to what you saw that indicated the lessening.

 

[cmasspatsfan]

I'm not sure why some keep harping on this but even if we kept Brady we don't win the super bowl, he did because he had a strong team around him that just needed a good leader and good QB. The TB vs BB debate gets old too, it was the synergy of the two of them together that won 6 super bowls and went to nine. If you want to put percentages on it maybe you could say 60-40 or whatever but they both needed each other to do what they did. He's gone its time to look forward, I hope he wins another one as long as its not against us.

 

[Lansdowne]

Here are the facts: aside from Jake Bailey and Gunner, Bill has not drafted ONE Pro Bowl/All Pro player since Jamie Collins in 2013. That’s really bad and there’s no way getting around that.

Teams build through the draft because of how cost effective the players are. FA is for signing a couple blue chip talents to put your team over the top - not to build it.

If Uche, Jennings, Winovich had a standout year, why would Bill throw out $14M per year on another player at that position?

If the rookie TE’s were worth a damn, he doesn’t go after the two best TE’s on the market.

If Harry was worth a damn, they don’t over pay for Agohlor.

The usual argument against my criticism is that I expect every pick to be a “Pro Bowler”’. What I expect are competent to solid starters who might not be elite and an occasional elite Pro Bowl/All Pro talent which isn’t too much to ask.

Yes, they pick late. But we’ve seen countless times Bill pass up talent for guys drafted earlier than expected and then the “hindsight” card is thrown out as the next excuse.

Chris Simms said what many of complain about, too much value is put into character and brains rather than pure talent. In his his short time with the Pats, he thought it was alarming the type of guys Bill brought in. If he was thinking that, you can bet your a** Tom thought that.

And I already know the next excuse that they went to 10 Super Bowls wining 6. That main cog in that machine is gone now.

FYI I agree with just about all of this, just wanted to add that Joe Thuney was drafted in 2016 and made second-team All-Pro in 2019.

 

[KDPPatsfan85]

 

[50-yard-line]

If you choose to read it that way, sure.

Someone could just as easily read it as: "the financial investment required to keep Brady would've put the team in a tight spot financially and rendered them unable to get talent around him".

That sounds about right - 2020 would have been 2020 in any case (with a team WORSE than the one that finished 2019), and the Pats would have had $50 million less to do the rebuild we saw this year - although they could have done the finagling Tampa just did with "void years" to handle it all.

My opinion when all is said and done: Kraft, BB, etc., did the wrong thing. After the 2018 SB (if not before), they should have gone to Brady and asked him what he wanted. If he said, I want to play to 45, they should have given him the contract he wanted to make it happen. This isn't hindsight - I thought he'd decline a lot more than he has.

But he earned that trust from the organization. Also, even if the last couple of years with Brady sucked, like the end of last year, it wouldn't have caused the baloney that's happened with the fan base after the worst-case (for the Patriot's organization) scenario of 2020. Patriot fans would have been much more patient with a rebuild had Brady retired here.