Julius Peppers proponents...a Philadelphia story

[Rob0729]

Agree Cousin, but he is severely hurting the Panthers one way or the other by not signing his tender. He has bound their hands for the whole FA season. This appears on the onset, to be some type of F.O. vendetta he has cooking? He is punishing them and he is not helping himself if he wants out. Unless someone out there can figure out what he has to gain by this play? Any people with bizzare minds out there that can answer that?

The way to entice Peppers might be major incentives: Sacks, Interceptions, Pro Bowl selections, Playoffs and finally Super Bowl venues. Cut a realistic salary, and if he proves to the Pats, the world and himself that he can be a quality caliber OLB, his teammates here won't object to incentives because he has helped them reach their goals.

DW Toys

I think the signing the tender thing is overrated only because the league is going through the motions to not give the NFLPA any ammo to get rid of the franchise tag when the new CBA negotiations are started. I think Cassel may be the first free agent to ever sign the tender long before he was traded. Jared Allen didn't sign anything until he was traded to the Vikes last year. The Pats traded Tebucky Jones without him signing his tender.

The teams can't talk to each other until the franchised player signs their tender is like saying teams can't negotiate with free agents until midnight the first day of free agency. And all those dinners between GMs and agents at the combine are just social visits with no business being discussed.

 

[mayoclinic]

I think the signing the tender thing is overrated only because the league is going through the motions to not give the NFLPA any ammo to get rid of the franchise tag when the new CBA negotiations are started. I think Cassel may be the first free agent to ever sign the tender long before he was traded. Jared Allen didn't sign anything until he was traded to the Vikes last year. The Pats traded Tebucky Jones without him signing his tender.

The teams can't talk to each other until the franchised player signs their tender is like saying teams can't negotiate with free agents until midnight the first day of free agency. And all those dinners between GMs and agents at the combine are just social visits with no business being discussed.

Maybe, but BB addressed this in a press conference a month ago and made it clear that he isn't willing to play that way. He pretty much said that if Peppers wants to get traded he should sign the tender and let the FO's work out a deal.

 

[Wheelssps]

I could be wrong but I thought the problem was that the Pats refused to give Vinatieri a lot of guaranteed money because of their concerns about his age and his back which gave him problems his last year here. I thought the word was they offered to make him the highest paid kicker, but refused to guarantee much if any of the money (an about face from his previous contract where he was guaranteed every penny).

The amount of guaranteed money may very well have been a factor that I'm not remembering, but I do remember a BB comment to the effect that they couldn't break the rules of their salary structure for Adam (and as you point out the issue may have been some combination of guaranteed money and total salary), even though it represented a relatively small amount of money compared to salaries of other positions because then other players would all want their contracts done according to the "new rules".
Again you could be right that it was about guaranteed money, but BB still recognized that you can't deviate from your salary system in the short term and expect other guys to keep being happy with the "old rules".
It's kind of like the Prisioner's Dilemma, except this time it's getting players and agents to buy into the "Patriot's Way" of fair but generally undermarket deals. It only works if players and agents see everyone else being treated in the same way. The minute someone else is treated differently, other players and agents rightly say, "Hey! What about mine?"

 

[Rob0729]

Maybe, but BB addressed this in a press conference a month ago and made it clear that he isn't willing to play that way. He pretty much said that if Peppers wants to get traded he should sign the tender and let the FO's work out a deal.

Well, that is what he is saying publically. I think that is because there are marching orders from the league to not make it look like teams are violating the franchise tag rule which teams have been doing since it was implemented. In fact, many years it has been very blatantly done. I remember when the Bills traded Peerless Price to the Falcons, they didn't hide the fact that the two teams were negotiating a trade eventhough Price hadn't signed the tender. Price wanted to be traded though and wasn't going to file a grievance with the league.

Maybe Belichick was telling the truth when he spoke to WEEI or maybe he was just playing the game to make it look like he was going to follow the letter of the law. The only way we will know for sure is if the Pats and Panther work out a trade before Peppers signs his tender and he signs the tender on the day he is traded.

I admit I don't know if Belichick was telling the truth or playing the game. But based on virtually every other franchised player traded, signing the tender has never been a requirement to getting a trade done between two teams.

 

[Rob0729]

The amount of guaranteed money may very well have been a factor that I'm not remembering, but I do remember a BB comment to the effect that they couldn't break the rules of their salary structure for Adam (and as you point out the issue may have been some combination of guaranteed money and total salary), even though it represented a relatively small amount of money compared to salaries of other positions because then other players would all want their contracts done according to the "new rules".
Again you could be right that it was about guaranteed money, but BB still recognized that you can't deviate from your salary system in the short term and expect other guys to keep being happy with the "old rules".
It's kind of like the Prisioner's Dilemma, except this time it's getting players and agents to buy into the "Patriot's Way" of fair but generally undermarket deals. It only works if players and agents see everyone else being treated in the same way. The minute someone else is treated differently, other players and agents rightly say, "Hey! What about mine?"

This year deviating from the salary system would not be wise, but next year if there is no cap is another story. I personally have never advocated to break from the Pats system of salaries for Peppers. I maintain that he may not be as much about the money as people think and may be more about getting out of Carolina and switching to the 3-4.

 

[Synovia]

Nobody gets to be the highest paid player at his position, not even Brady or Seymour

Brady was the highest paid QB in the NFL for a time. Seymour, I'm pretty sure, IS the highest paid 3-4 DE in the NFL. Thomas probably was the highest paid 3-4 OLB until suggs got franchised and Harrison did his deal. Randy Moss surely breaks the salary structure.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

I could see it more if peppers was a proven 3-4 OLB......but he isn't

the pats can ill afford to back up the truck for peppers while wilfork,seymour,mankins are in a contract year..........regardless of a looming uncapped league.......belichik will still report back to kraft with a bottom line......

if he was OK with 8-9M per year, fine........but I will bet that he's looking to beat freeney $$$$

 

[Rob0729]

Brady was the highest paid QB in the NFL for a time. Seymour, I'm pretty sure, IS the highest paid 3-4 DE in the NFL. Thomas probably was the highest paid 3-4 OLB until suggs got franchised and Harrison did his deal. Randy Moss surely breaks the salary structure.

On a per year basis, Seymour was the highest paid defensive player in the NFL at the time he signed his contract. The Patriots hid the fact by averaging the final year of his existing contract (since he got part of a signing bonus that year although no increase in salary) into the figures bringing down the average per year.

 

[Zeus]

1. The Patriots won't break their salary structure for anyone. And they won't overpay in terms of valuable draft picks to compensate another team for a player.

2. If Peppers were solely concerned about money, he wouldn't be lobbying to switch from DE to OLB.

3. Peppers can flat out put the QB on his back.

It's a long shot but it's fun to talk about because NE hasn't had a pure pass rusher of this caliber arguably since Andre Tippett.

If Belichick likes the player and there's a deal to be had on his terms, he'll do it. If not, it's on to the next option.

 

[Bobs My Uncle]

I'm not sure why anyone would be concerned that BB would add someone at a ridiculous cost and thus upset the pat scale. That's simply not going to happen so the theme of the article is moot.

As for Peppers ..... he has turned a contract offer from Carolina that would have made him the highest paid defensive player in the league so, maybe "cashing in" isn't his # 1 priority as many seem to believe. Maybe, he justs wants to win a super bowl and maybe he just might take less $ in order to play on a team that gives him the best chance of doing so.

If Carolina wishes to trade Peppers and Peppers wishes to accept "less" $ to play for a top contender, and BB believes that adding Peppers at the cost to do so is warranted and doable cap wise, then I can't imagine why he wouldn't do so.

 

[Wheelssps]

This year deviating from the salary system would not be wise, but next year if there is no cap is another story. I personally have never advocated to break from the Pats system of salaries for Peppers. I maintain that he may not be as much about the money as people think and may be more about getting out of Carolina and switching to the 3-4.

You're right about the differences in deviating between this year and next. How the Pats and the rest of the league handle the possibility and impending prospect of an uncapped year will be very interesting. I'm guessing that some teams will make a mess of the situation while the Pats will have been planning for it and just will use the uncapped year to their advantage in the short and log term. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

 

[Wheelssps]

Pepper's situation of not signing the tender is an interesting one, and as many have pointed out perplexing.
IF Peppers was worried about missing the opportunity to be a free agent in an uncapped year and the possible bidding war that might entail, his not signing the tender might make sense.
EXCEPT that can't be it because as I understand it signing the tender means the Panthers can trade him, but his new team just takes on the one year franchise contract unless he's willing to renegotiate, which he wouldn't be obligated to.
So basically I can't figure out the reason.

 

[Synovia]

1. The Patriots won't break their salary structure for anyone. And they won't overpay in terms of valuable draft picks to compensate another team for a player.

Except, that they have, repeatedly. (with Seymour, Brady, Moss, Dillon,Thomas, etc)


I don't think that theres any chance Peppers is a patriots, but its not because of how it affects other player's opinions of their salaries.

 

[Pats726]

Except, that they have, repeatedly. (with Seymour, Brady, Moss, Dillon,Thomas, etc)


I don't think that theres any chance Peppers is a patriots, but its not because of how it affects other player's opinions of their salaries.

I am not exactly sure what you mean repeatedly...HOW much out of the norm were they paid?? I think that is the key..your suggestion is that these Patriots Seymour, Brady, Moss, Dillon, Thomas and others were being paid extraodinary amounts OUT OF LINE with the pay structure. That is clearly NOT the case. Get the facts to back that one up...please. And what Peppers reportedly is wanting per year is quite out of line with the structure that exists.

 

[Zeus]

Except, that they have, repeatedly. (with Seymour, Brady, Moss, Dillon,Thomas, etc)

It may be a semantic distinction, but I disagree.

As long as revenues (and therefrore the salary cap) grow, we'll see bigger contracts. No one can guarantee that they will not pay a new player more than other players on the roster - and it would be foolish to make such a claim.

What I'm saying is that the Patriots assign a value to a player and will not exceed that value. They don't fall in love with a player and then pay whatever it takes to get him. With Peppers (as with anyone), they'll make a measured decision that reflects their perception of the player's value on the field, their own financial circumstances (salary cap) and market considerations.

I tend to think that the Brady rule (no one gets paid more than Brady) is operative in the long run.

For Peppers, if they think he's a difference maker and he's willing to accept an Adalius Thomas type contract, then maybe there's something to talk about. If both of those conditions are not met, Belichick is not going to lose any sleep over it.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Are you really that naive...Nobody here makes more than Brady...it's written in the system manuel, as well it should be. And he's supposed to give up a couple of million to boot, and he always has. Nobody gets to be the highest paid player at his position, not even Brady or Seymour. He got his interim concession when he cried and finally got $10/per but only on a 3 year extension that could be prorated over 4 that included the last year of his rookie deal...so the average value of his deal dropped to $8 over 4 years.

We have an even more special circumstance here. It's called "the system". It's underpinnings are founded on sacrifice and discipline and a slotted salary scale. Players are asked to wait their turn, take a little less, respect the fact that we can't make exceptions for a players specialness because everyone who does his job is valued here...and in order to pay fair market value across a roster with sufficient talent and depth they can win championships with elite talent that talent is asked to lead by example.

Peppers wants to play a 3-4 OLB here. Well, that player tops out here at $8M. That player is asked to take a split signing/option bonus here (as are most who require $20M or more). Peppers wants to make the move predicated on increasing his sacks...not gonna happen here. It's not about his sacks, it's about doing what is asked of him - something he apparently bristled about in Carolina where they won't change their system or scheme to suit him. It's hard to compile the eye popping stats that land you pro bowl nods and put you on the HOF fast track here even as you appear in every other superbowl contested. Peppers didn't even play the want a ring card...because apparently self fulfillment is higher on his list of wants.

He had his best season in 2006, not 2008, and in 2007 people were questioning his value compared to other top tier DE. Imagine how he'd deal with the fanboy and mediot finger pointing if he struggled here. Think he could take a year of criticism while he was taught the system intracacies as AD was??? He was apparently disappointed that Carolina after winning it's division got bounced in the first round of the playoffs in a game where he was essentially MIA. He's been on the market for 3 months and no one has brought his agent the kind of deal he can wave in Carolina's face and say make this happen. There has to be a reason or two for that.

I'm sure Bill admires his talent. I'm sure Bill would be interested in at least exploring the possibility of bringing him here. But Peppers hasn't done anything over the last 3 months to facilitate even that happening. Everyone now says Carolina is hamstrung by his tag - no, they chose to hamstring themselves in March by tagging a player they had previously been unable to sign to a long term extension. They could do that because the guy they tagged last year when they couldn't get him extended (Gross) finally agreed to one himself. And for some reason they still want to retain a player who is the face of their franchise and the anchor of their defense even as he apparently doesn't want to be retained. Southern expansion team fan bases are a lot more forgiving than old school passionate NE sports fans... If he were pulling his just want a change crap here the same people who want him so desperately would be calling him a useless overpaid POS and pointing to his seasonal inconsistencies and calling for Bill to package his ass IN a trade.

The FA ship has sailed for 2009. There is little or nothing left to be gained by Carolina trading him now unless it's for a top 5 pick or similar value (like what Denver got for Cutler) that might enable them to replace his value on the roster over the next couple of seasons. He's not worth that to this franchise.

And as for Kraft, he didn't get where he is by opening up his wallet, he got there by making sound disciplined financial choices. He has a lot of players to deal with come the uncapped year. And a lot of long term impact decisions to factor in including negotiating for a new CBA. He's not going to morph into Dan Snyder for a season because he doesn't have his revenue stream and he knows the long term impact (on future negotiations here) would be impossible to manage. People forget he's the guy who said on national television on the very night we won our 3rd superbowl that while he hoped to get Brady extended it would NOT HAPPEN if he wanted Manning money...

People here need to remember that sometimes when things sound too good to be true (like Peppers on the cheap in contract and compensation) it's because they aren't true. While other times when reality sounds too difficult to be overcome, that's because as Bill would say it is what it is...

I agree with one exception. The CBA poison pills prevent Snyder from signing lots of OTHER TEAMS FAs. He can sign as many of his over paid and underperforming FAs as he wants. So can every other Team including the SB winner. It really only stops importing lots of outside FAs.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Brady was the highest paid QB in the NFL for a time. Seymour, I'm pretty sure, IS the highest paid 3-4 DE in the NFL. Thomas probably was the highest paid 3-4 OLB until suggs got franchised and Harrison did his deal. Randy Moss surely breaks the salary structure.

On the day he got his bonus check maybe but then they all are on that day and that's not the way you measure contract value. He's never been close by AAV and he's apparently barely clinging to top 5 by Shefter's calculations based on the so called gold standard of first 3 years. I can't be bothered to try hunting everyones details down, so here is what Adam had to say when Rodgers got his extension in 2007:

"Now that Aaron Rodgers‘ contract numbers have come in — a five-year extension that gives him six more years for $65 million, including $40.5 million in first three years of the contract — they can be compared.

And Rodgers’ contract now makes him, remarkably, the fourth highest paid quarterback in the game, behind only Peyton Manning, Carson Palmer and Ben Roethlisberger."

Manning saw $45M in the first 3 years of his deal. Tommy saw $37.5M. Manning saw $55M through the first 4 years. Tommy saw $45.5M through the first 4. Since both deals are in their back years and may ultimately play themselves out, Tommy's remains 6 years $60M while Mannings remains 7 years $98M through 2010.

Vick's paid more before he screwed himself out of the NFL entirely. Eli is reportedly next up with guesstimates at something in excess of Palmer's $118M deal. He's looking at a $15M AAV so likely a signing bonus and guarantees worth at least $45M.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I agree with one exception. The CBA poison pills prevent Snyder from signing lots of OTHER TEAMS FAs. He can sign as many of his over paid and underperforming FAs as he wants. So can every other Team including the SB winner. It really only stops importing lots of outside FAs.

Only if he's a final 8 or final 4 playoff contender with Campbell and an already lame duck HC (Shanny is on his radar for 2010) leading the team. Apparently even he doesn't anticipate that. Miss the playoffs entirely as he often does and it's free for all city and he can sign every FA on the market for all the good it will do him as his next HC starts over from scratch.

 

[Synovia]

As long as revenues (and therefrore the salary cap) grow, we'll see bigger contracts. No one can guarantee that they will not pay a new player more than other players on the roster - and it would be foolish to make such a claim..

Which is exactly my point. The patriots HAVE paid player at the top of their position, top money. THis idea that everyone takes a pay cut is ridiculous.

 

[Ring 6]

I never advocate way overpaying for a glamor FA. But if Belichick thinks Peppers is worth it, who are we to argue. I personally am hesitant to get Peppers because he would be switching positions, but he does have the POTENTIAL of being a stud OLB in the 3-4 (but potential is not always met and quite frequently not met).

As for Peppers taking a below market deal, don't be shocked if he does. I heard a Panthers' beat writer on Sirius NFL radio a month or so back and he said Peppers isn't all about the money and has turned down a lot of endorsement deals. Part of the reason Peppers wants to leave Carolina is not the money, but the fact he has spent his entire life in North Carolina and wants to experience life somewhere else.

I don't know if Belichick is going to trade for Peppers, but I still don't see the relevance of the two examples Box stated. The Colts have made many of their players the top paid players at their position and you rarely if ever hear about other players being upset with their deals. Granted I don't want Belichick to start making his team top heavy like the Colts unless there is an uncapped year.

The Colts pay THEIR OWN top dollar. That is the entire issue. Didnt you read the post? Goood players are getting upset when they produce for the team, and instead of getting a raise someone else is brought in from the outside and gets big money.