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Jones = Chad Pennington 2002?


I'm happy Mac is here but we should be able to have an honest convo about him. I've been sharing my thoughts for months from actually watching game film and projecting him. So sorry if that offends people that just heard his name 3 months and watch highlights on YT. He's a fine prospect and it's ok to talk about concerns or flaws. He came from an offense that helped him immensely in regards to screens-passes behind the los, RPO/PA, living yac. That's not to say he can't do something but it's a lot different than what NE has been running for 20 years what most are familiar with. That a lot different from what we've seen. Again doesn't mean he can't it's just something you can't ignore and is relevant in terms of making him as comfortable as possible early on.
Apologies, Mac Jones = Tom Brady.


Screenshot_2021-05-10-15-45-53.png



 
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You didn't explain anything. That's a laugh. You explain nothing and offer 0 insight. It's been posted before it's PFF genius.

I disagree with a lot of people and have np. I'm dragging you bc you're a loser who likes to spam threads with misinformation. You also have 0 original thought. Nobody comes here to read you or that nonsense.

I'd find another hobby tbh. You've been posting on a football site for over 10 years but have insight on the game. You provide and contribute nothing. Just a waste of time.

Oh look, it's someone who spends a ton of time on the draft and is wrong a lot and doesn't know how to interpret data but gatekeeps opinions.
Awesome! :)
 


hilarious, again someone who doesn't know how to interpret information. Not all data is created equal. Trey Lance played in an offense that ran the ball 70% of the time and he only averaged 160 yards passing per game and was rated as the worst-accuracy QB by multiple analysts among the 5 QB's. Everyone please be aware BGC loves Trey and hates Mac Jones. And is dead wrong. It's one thing to spend a lot of time on something and everyone golf claps, then he gets a massive head/ego and tries to gatekeep opinions. Nope. Not for this forum. You're not right nor have a better opinion than others especially when I see you repeatedly take data/info and take the exact wrong conclusion.

.
 
I'm happy Mac is here but we should be able to have an honest convo about him. I've been sharing my thoughts for months from actually watching game film and projecting him. So sorry if that offends people that just heard his name 3 months and watch highlights on YT. He's a fine prospect and it's ok to talk about concerns or flaws. He came from an offense that helped him immensely in regards to screens-passes behind the los, RPO/PA, living yac. That's not to say he can't do something but it's a lot different than what NE has been running for 20 years what most are familiar with. That a lot different from what we've seen. Again doesn't mean he can't it's just something you can't ignore and is relevant in terms of making him as comfortable as possible early on.
Apologies, Mac Jones = Tom Brady.


View attachment 32836





Who wrote those NFL.com weakness, because several seem to run counter what I have seen, heard, read about Jones (poise issues in pocket, only average release, locking in on target)? Sounds like Cam!

As for those PFF stats, I choose to interpret them this way: He and Lawrence are outliers because they were the best two quarterbacks in the draft. :)
 
Who wrote those NFL.com weakness, because several seem to run counter what I have seen, heard, read about Jones (poise issues in pocket, only average release, locking in on target)? Sounds like Cam!

As for those PFF stats, I choose to interpret them this way: He and Lawrence are outliers because they were the best two quarterbacks in the draft. :)
Lance Zierlein, he's about as respected as it gets.
 
PFF (@PFF) Tweeted:
Patriots QB Mac Jones: 28 PASS TDs off play action since 2019

Most among QBs in the 2021 Draft class https://t.co/zePkDuWfzs

Nick Penticoff (@NickPenticoff) Tweeted:
I am sure a lot of people are wondering if Mac Jones is a product of the talent around him, myself included, before taking a look. Thread below. https://t.co/dxZTj7lZPv


Here’s what a Jones-run offense might look like in 2021 if the rookie ends up taking over for Newton sooner than expected.
Here’s what a Jones-run offense might look like in 2021 if the rookie ends up taking over for Newton sooner than expected.
The Patriots might run more RPOs than they did a year ago.
Wait…what do you mean more RPOs? Mac Jones isn’t an RPO quarterback!
Actually, yes he is. Just ask his offensive coordinator Steve Sarkisian: “When you think about Alabama, this is who we are. This is what we do,” he said last year of his use of RPOs in the Crimson Tide offense.
Benjamin Solak of The Draft Network estimates 19 percent of Jones’s pass attempts (around 76 attempts in total) last year were of the RPO variety — one of the highest numbers in the 2021 draft class.

By contrast, Newton ran just 13 RPOs in 2020, which was good for 31st in the league according to Pro Football Reference. Jones almost had that many RPO attempts in Alabama’s semi-final game against Notre Dame alone.
 
Lance Zierlein, he's about as respected as it gets.
Zierlein on Mitchy T:

"Trubisky is a high-end quarterback prospect who possesses NFL size, a big arm and the ability to throw with accuracy from the pocket or on the move," NFL Network's Lance Zierlein wrote in his scouting report. "Despite playing in a spread-based offense, he's a full-field reader who does a very good job of getting an early read on the safeties before crafting his course of action. Trubisky will have to become much more pocket aware and do a better job of recognizing and attacking blitzes to back NFL defensive coordinators off. He hasn't put all the pieces together yet, but the puzzle is all right in front. Trubisky projects as a good starting quarterback with a high floor and the potential to be great. NFL Comparison: Matthew Stafford."

Zierlein on Herbert

Weaknesses
  • Disappointing impact as passer over final four games
  • Play is more mechanical than maestro
  • Scouts say he leads by example but is not a commanding presence
  • Has issues finding touch on his tool belt
  • Flat throws found linebackers with interceptions/deflections
  • Toggles between caution and worry attacking first two levels
  • Uneasy challenging zone corners on high/low combos
  • Needs to trust his eyes and let it go in rhythm
  • Ball placement to lead receivers can be better
  • Deep shots and fades need more air under the ball
  • Struggles to escape sudden pressure
My point isn’t to bash Zierlein. I’m just pointing out that all draft experts are wrong as much as they right about the top QBs. I’m holding out judgement until I see Jones play, while hoping for the best and choosing to be optimistic about his potential in the Pats offense.

PS. Negative stats in college are also often not predictive:
 
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Injuries really took their toll on him, but I liked Chad. He was a very good player... and the QB of the two teams who kept the Pats out of the playoffs in 2002 and 2008.

Ahhhh, the two times we needed Brett Favre to save us and and he failed.
 
Zierlein on Mitchy T:

"Trubisky is a high-end quarterback prospect who possesses NFL size, a big arm and the ability to throw with accuracy from the pocket or on the move," NFL Network's Lance Zierlein wrote in his scouting report. "Despite playing in a spread-based offense, he's a full-field reader who does a very good job of getting an early read on the safeties before crafting his course of action. Trubisky will have to become much more pocket aware and do a better job of recognizing and attacking blitzes to back NFL defensive coordinators off. He hasn't put all the pieces together yet, but the puzzle is all right in front. Trubisky projects as a good starting quarterback with a high floor and the potential to be great. NFL Comparison: Matthew Stafford."

Zierlein on Herbert

Weaknesses
  • Disappointing impact as passer over final four games
  • Play is more mechanical than maestro
  • Scouts say he leads by example but is not a commanding presence
  • Has issues finding touch on his tool belt
  • Flat throws found linebackers with interceptions/deflections
  • Toggles between caution and worry attacking first two levels
  • Uneasy challenging zone corners on high/low combos
  • Needs to trust his eyes and let it go in rhythm
  • Ball placement to lead receivers can be better
  • Deep shots and fades need more air under the ball
  • Struggles to escape sudden pressure
My point isn’t to bash Zierlein. I’m just pointing out that all draft experts are wrong as much as they right about the top QBs. I’m holding out judgement until I see Jones play, while hoping for the best and choosing to be optimistic about his potential in the Pats offense.

PS. Negative stats in college are also often not predictive:

None of those have any bearing on how I grade or even look at a prospect. I'm not the one flipping out or even paying that stuff any mind. I've literally said for years they're not that important. It's just something, information, to consider and think about. Just like I did with Jones with that PFF 2nd & 3rd read tweet. It doesn't mean that much at all.

Almost like it's a case of "what you're asked to do" as opposed to "what you can do"

Appreciate it though. I thought PFF was the gospel.

*edit* I'm not sure where LZ was really off regarding Herbert.
 
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Great article from Mark. If you listen to Bacon you've known this for months. Do you guys go to the best restaurants and fight with the *****chefs?
 
Great article from Mark. If you listen to Bacon you've known this for months. Do you guys go to the best restaurants and fight with the *****chefs?

Ben is 21 and leading the charge ahead of Mark and Evan (kind of late to the party lol) on the stuff Bacon has been telling you for months. Again if you've been reading my post you already knew a lot of this. At the end of reading remember "what you're asked to do" isn't the same as "what can you. Bill has already shown he's flexible. The RPO should be here to stay though. Let Mac pulp the trigger on some deep(er) stuff. Am I crazy for thinking Bourne is going to be a great fit, WR1/2? Not target but I think he has a low key shot at stepping right in and taking off. He's very adapt at working the MOF. Finding space, working leverage routes and you know he'll fight for a few yards. Mac was probably top 3-5 working MOF last year. This could be a fun offense with competent QB play. And don't get me started to the defense. Bill is going to terrorize QB's this year.



 
Ben is 21 and leading the charge ahead of Mark and Evan (kind of late to the party lol) on the stuff Bacon has been telling you for months. Again if you've been reading my post you already knew a lot of this. At the end of reading remember "what you're asked to do" isn't the same as "what can you. Bill has already shown he's flexible. The RPO should be here to stay though. Let Mac pulp the trigger on some deep(er) stuff. Am I crazy for thinking Bourne is going to be a great fit, WR1/2? Not target but I think he has a low key shot at stepping right in and taking off. He's very adapt at working the MOF. Finding space, working leverage routes and you know he'll fight for a few yards. Mac was probably top 3-5 working MOF last year. This could be a fun offense with competent QB play. And don't get me started to the defense. Bill is going to terrorize QB's this year.





Lazar's article is very good and has a much more balanced take on Jones' strengths and weaknesses. I actually took exception to a couple of points in the Solak article, however, particularly ball placement. I trust my eyes, plus what I've seen from his coaches, more than Solak's traking. Mac is very good at putting the ball where only his receiver has a chance at making the catch. He's good at not leading players into collisions, too. The traits -- remember, you often preach translatable traits with a prospect, not just what he was asked to do in school -- are a super easy projection. I don't think we're going to see any issues at all. He's the clearest fit I've seen in a few years for the typical McDaniel's playcalling.

There's a big difference between "the Patriots don't run the exact offense concepts that Alabama did," and "he's a bad fit for what the Patriots want to do on offense." That's where I think Solak tries to get too cute, and ignores how the offense has morphed and changed over the years.

Sanchez may have had an up and down career, but he's a good host for this show:



Also this discussion is interesting:

 
Lazar's article is very good and has a much more balanced take on Jones' strengths and weaknesses. I actually took exception to a couple of points in the Solak article, however, particularly ball placement. I trust my eyes, plus what I've seen from his coaches, more than Solak's traking. Mac is very good at putting the ball where only his receiver has a chance at making the catch. He's good at not leading players into collisions, too.
Tbh I only skimmed Ben's. I didn't even know about it until I read Mark's which just cam out. Tried to give Lazar a click or I did but the piece wouldn't fully come up.

So the only problem I have with Mac is vs some pressure and in terms of placement or w/e is when he's off-platform, forced to manipulate - off his spot. He can absolutely anticipate and move - work a pocket but has trouble against certain types of pressure imo. His anticipation is really good but I'd like to see vs real NFL pressure to really seal the deal. Specifically with linear speed, coming right at him and maneuvering around bodies at his feet, grabbing at him. Might seem like nitpicking but I believe they're legit concerns. I don't see any deal breakers and he could absolutely improve in these areas. I wrote more than a few times I expect him get stronger, transform his body. So that'll only help there.

I didn't read Ben's charting tbh, not sure if that was his contextualized piece but you know me I'm in my own bacon bubble.

Mac has fine placement. It's not "elite" imo but it doesn't have to be. I didn't see it touched on but I believe he has a little upside in the arm. I'm not an expert on mechanics and most QB's won't even think about touching them unless they have to but I believe he could tweak up top and possible unleash some real velocity.

Anyway his anticipation is almost top notch or w/e you want to call it. He makes up for a lot with his awareness & decision making.
The traits -- remember, you often preach translatable traits with a prospect, not just what he was asked to do in school -- are a super easy projection. I don't think we're going to see any issues at all. He's the clearest fit I've seen in a few years for the typical McDaniel's playcalling.

There's a big difference between "the Patriots don't run the exact offense concepts that Alabama did," and "he's a bad fit for what the Patriots want to do on offense." That's where I think Solak tries to get too cute, and ignores how the offense has morphed and changed over the years.

Sanchez may have had an up and down career, but he's a good host for this show:



Also this discussion is interesting:


That why I cautioned readers with "what you're asked to do" vs "what can you do". I agree I don't see a problem. Bill has already shown to be flexible on both sides. We saw Cam running zone read, toss etc last year, Bill, Josh & co aren't perfect but they're great at what they do. The game plan will be tailor made to his strengths.

This is why I've been writing, not so much "hoping" bc I believe the RPO is here to stay with either QB but believe it's important. Particularly for a young QB coming out. All these kids love it, it's part of their game now, all of them for the most part or PA. Gets them in rhythm, gives them options, it translates. Second level - read defenders hate it (RPO).

I also believe Mac is a little more naturally aggressive or w/e you want to call it so I hope we let him pull the trigger and expand our strike zone so to speak a little. He's shown he's capable and able and again he got a little way about him. I hope that confidence and moxy is the same moving forward.

There's a lot to be excited about though. This OL has tremendous potential, I'm as excited as I've ever been there. If we stay healthy, can add someone else into mix for creative, depth purposes we're golden and have a top 5-10 OL imo. So much athleticism there.

And our targets are really going underrated here. I mentioned it a bunch but it's perfectly set up for someone who likes to work the MOF -Inside/Outside. Take shots off PA. Seam (Henry, Smith), boundary (Bourne, NA), shallow-MOF (White, Meyers, Bourne). A little luck, Harris stays healthy with our line and I could see having a very different, a lot more efficient, dangerous offense with competent QB play.
 
Tbh I only skimmed Ben's. I didn't even know about it until I read Mark's which just cam out. Tried to give Lazar a click or I did but the piece wouldn't fully come up.

So the only problem I have with Mac is vs some pressure and in terms of placement or w/e is when he's off-platform, forced to manipulate - off his spot. He can absolutely anticipate and move - work a pocket but has trouble against certain types of pressure imo. His anticipation is really good but I'd like to see vs real NFL pressure to really seal the deal. Specifically with linear speed, coming right at him and maneuvering around bodies at his feet, grabbing at him. Might seem like nitpicking but I believe they're legit concerns. I don't see any deal breakers and he could absolutely improve in these areas. I wrote more than a few times I expect him get stronger, transform his body. So that'll only help there.

I didn't read Ben's charting tbh, not sure if that was his contextualized piece but you know me I'm in my own bacon bubble.

Mac has fine placement. It's not "elite" imo but it doesn't have to be. I didn't see it touched on but I believe he has a little upside in the arm. I'm not an expert on mechanics and most QB's won't even think about touching them unless they have to but I believe he could tweak up top and possible unleash some real velocity.

Anyway his anticipation is almost top notch or w/e you want to call it. He makes up for a lot with his awareness & decision making.

That why I cautioned readers with "what you're asked to do" vs "what can you do". I agree I don't see a problem. Bill has already shown to be flexible on both sides. We saw Cam running zone read, toss etc last year, Bill, Josh & co aren't perfect but they're great at what they do. The game plan will be tailor made to his strengths.

This is why I've been writing, not so much "hoping" bc I believe the RPO is here to stay with either QB but believe it's important. Particularly for a young QB coming out. All these kids love it, it's part of their game now, all of them for the most part or PA. Gets them in rhythm, gives them options, it translates. Second level - read defenders hate it (RPO).

I also believe Mac is a little more naturally aggressive or w/e you want to call it so I hope we let him pull the trigger and expand our strike zone so to speak a little. He's shown he's capable and able and again he got a little way about him. I hope that confidence and moxy is the same moving forward.

There's a lot to be excited about though. This OL has tremendous potential, I'm as excited as I've ever been there. If we stay healthy, can add someone else into mix for creative, depth purposes we're golden and have a top 5-10 OL imo. So much athleticism there.

And our targets are really going underrated here. I mentioned it a bunch but it's perfectly set up for someone who likes to work the MOF -Inside/Outside. Take shots off PA. Seam (Henry, Smith), boundary (Bourne, NA), shallow-MOF (White, Meyers, Bourne). A little luck, Harris stays healthy with our line and I could see having a very different, a lot more efficient, dangerous offense with competent QB play.

One of the things that surprised me was the coach discussing that on a sack Jones took, they didn't have a hot route built into the design. They fixed it and added a running back option, and later in the game against the same blitz, Jones hit his back downfield just before the pressure could get to him. It was a good example of quick adjustment, but it also reminded me that what looked like a lack of poise under pressure was actually a mixup in the play call, and once it was fixed, he had the "answer" for the pressure that he dealt with. Kinda neat, and gives me a lot of hope for how he'll do with McDaniels drawing up plays.
 
One of the things that surprised me was the coach discussing that on a sack Jones took, they didn't have a hot route built into the design. They fixed it and added a running back option, and later in the game against the same blitz, Jones hit his back downfield just before the pressure could get to him. It was a good example of quick adjustment, but it also reminded me that what looked like a lack of poise under pressure was actually a mixup in the play call, and once it was fixed, he had the "answer" for the pressure that he dealt with. Kinda neat, and gives me a lot of hope for how he'll do with McDaniels drawing up plays.
Those two should hit it off. Mac needs Josh and Josh has to want to put his stamp on young QB, help build post-Brady.

Pats fan have a reason to be excited, at least short term.
 
Ben is 21 and leading the charge ahead of Mark and Evan (kind of late to the party lol) on the stuff Bacon has been telling you for months. Again if you've been reading my post you already knew a lot of this. At the end of reading remember "what you're asked to do" isn't the same as "what can you. Bill has already shown he's flexible. The RPO should be here to stay though. Let Mac pulp the trigger on some deep(er) stuff. Am I crazy for thinking Bourne is going to be a great fit, WR1/2? Not target but I think he has a low key shot at stepping right in and taking off. He's very adapt at working the MOF. Finding space, working leverage routes and you know he'll fight for a few yards. Mac was probably top 3-5 working MOF last year. This could be a fun offense with competent QB play. And don't get me started to the defense. Bill is going to terrorize QB's this year.




The fact that Mr. Solak boils down Mac Jones and Tom Brady as "White pocket passers" is insulting and racist. The color of your skin has nothing to do with how well you play the quarterback position and is an obvious slur and denigrating description to imply lack of athleticism based on race. Mr. Solak's conclusion is that Mac Jones and Brady are white pocket passers, of course they can't run or do anything athletic! You'd think in this day and age people would automatically take race out of evaluations, but obviously that's still not the case even in 2021. He also gives the 'genius' hot take conclusion that 'intelligence and competitiveness' don't matter at the QB position. What a crock of ****. I don't mind the other criticisms, but the fact his conclusions appear primarily race based and thus inherently biased make me distrust the entire analysis.

Here's the quote:
"But the idea that Jones—a white pocket passer lauded for his competitiveness and intelligence—is comparable to Brady—another white pocket passer lauded for his competitiveness and intelligence—is one that barely scratches the surface of what we understand about football. On the brambly, thorny path that a quarterback walks from college to the pros, buzzwords and archetype comparisons are like team-branded shooting sleeves. They might look good, but they don’t actually help or matter."
 
BaconGrundleCandy said:
Lance Zierlein, he's about as respected as it gets.
Zierlein on Trubisky:
"Trubisky is a high-end quarterback prospect who possesses NFL size, a big arm and the ability to throw with accuracy from the pocket or on the move," NFL Network's Lance Zierlein wrote in his scouting report. "Despite playing in a spread-based offense, he's a full-field reader who does a very good job of getting an early read on the safeties before crafting his course of action. Trubisky will have to become much more pocket aware and do a better job of recognizing and attacking blitzes to back NFL defensive coordinators off. He hasn't put all the pieces together yet, but the puzzle is all right in front. Trubisky projects as a good starting quarterback with a high floor and the potential to be great. NFL Comparison: Matthew Stafford."

Zierlein on Herbert

Weaknesses
  • Disappointing impact as passer over final four games
  • Play is more mechanical than maestro
  • Scouts say he leads by example but is not a commanding presence
  • Has issues finding touch on his tool belt
  • Flat throws found linebackers with interceptions/deflections
  • Toggles between caution and worry attacking first two levels
  • Uneasy challenging zone corners on high/low combos
  • Needs to trust his eyes and let it go in rhythm
  • Ball placement to lead receivers can be better
  • Deep shots and fades need more air under the ball
  • Struggles to escape sudden pressure


This is absolute comedy gold.
 
Anyone but "noodle arms"....
 
Lazar's article is very good and has a much more balanced take on Jones' strengths and weaknesses. I actually took exception to a couple of points in the Solak article, however, particularly ball placement. I trust my eyes, plus what I've seen from his coaches, more than Solak's traking. Mac is very good at putting the ball where only his receiver has a chance at making the catch. He's good at not leading players into collisions, too. The traits -- remember, you often preach translatable traits with a prospect, not just what he was asked to do in school -- are a super easy projection. I don't think we're going to see any issues at all. He's the clearest fit I've seen in a few years for the typical McDaniel's playcalling.

There's a big difference between "the Patriots don't run the exact offense concepts that Alabama did," and "he's a bad fit for what the Patriots want to do on offense." That's where I think Solak tries to get too cute, and ignores how the offense has morphed and changed over the years.

Sanchez may have had an up and down career, but he's a good host for this show:



Also this discussion is interesting:



One good tidbit from Sarkisian is since he was the Falcons OC for 2 years before Alabama, Mac was exposed to a lot of pro concepts in college. Should hopefully bode well for his NFL transition.
 


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