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Jerod Mayo suffers knee injury

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Have heard Jonathan Kraft speak about his belief that if you paying all these guys dress all these guys, so if we dressed 53 it would avoid some of the wear and tear on the Special Teams...

This would probably not impact the Mayo or Ridley injuries, but it may lessen the wear and tear on our regulars...

I also think that if they were able to activate 53 then they if someone had a four week injury it would not necessitate a quick decision to IR that player.. there is currently only one short term IR for each team. More than one short term IR per team may be beneficial as well...

You would definitely need to change the IR rules if you were to make all 53 players active, because the reason for that 8-player buffer is so that teams aren't penalized even more for having injured players on their rosters. If you're going to go with 53 active players, then I still think you'd need a buffer of some kind, and in the end all you'd really accomplish is making it easier to stash players on your own roster and harder to 'steal' bottom-of-the-roster talent from other teams (see: Casey Walker, Chris Jones, etc.)

I get the thinking behind what you're going for, but I'm not sure if I agree due to the ramifications of it. Maybe if it came with a disabled list like what you see in baseball, where you have a limited number of players who can be exempt week-to-week due to injury (although this would just encourage reporting fake injuries for developmental players, and would probably require some oversight as a result), a couple more four-game IR spots, and maybe unlimited 6-8 week IR spots? I dunno, seems like a situation where the solution may introduce more problems than the initial problem. Although if nothing else I do think that there should be more than one short-term IR spot available for teams to use.
 
The NFL has changed drastically since 2004. That's part of what Patsfans.com posters seem to ignore all too often. Defenses can't win the same way they used to, because the rules have changed, and 3 down players are more valuable then ever. Offenses can bring more weapons to the table but, at the same time, need more weapons to compete. Free agency is no longer a place where wily teams can find gold year after year.

When you add in the already too-thin LB corps, Guregian's article makes a whole lot of sense.

I agree, and I especially agree that having a LB corps as thin as this one is outright negligent roster management. I've been saying that every chance I get since week 1, long before Mayo, Hightower, and Collins all suffered injuries that caused them to miss games.

But in the post that I quoted, you were citing 2006-2009 to prove your point, and that requires a similar disclaimer. Besides, the Pats were within 1 play of winning the SB in 2011, and that was with Edelman at CB, one of the worst safety rotations I've ever seen, and Gronk pretty much out. You can win a SB with a roster that's lost a couple of key contributors; if the 2011 Pats aren't proof in how close they got, then just look at the 2010 Packers. They won after losing Nick Barnett, Jermichael Finley, Ryan Grant, and Johnny Jolly. Losing Ridley and Mayo ramps up the degree of difficulty significantly (and definitely decreases your chances of winning it all), but it doesn't end your season. It'll take a few more injuries to key contributors to do that.
 
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I agree, and I especially agree that having a LB corps as thin as this one is outright negligent roster management. I've been saying that every chance I get since week 1, long before Mayo, Hightower, and Collins all suffered injuries that caused them to miss games.

But in the post that I quoted, you were citing 2006-2009 to prove your point, and that requires a similar disclaimer. Besides, the Pats were within 1 play of winning the SB in 2011, and that was with Edelman at CB, one of the worst safety rotations I've ever seen, and Gronk pretty much out. You can win a SB with a roster that's lost a couple of key contributors; if the 2011 Pats aren't proof in how close they got, then just look at the 2010 Packers. They won after losing Nick Barnett, Jermichael Finley, Ryan Grant, and Johnny Jolly. Losing a guy like Mayo ramps up the degree of difficulty significantly, but it doesn't end your season. It'll take a few more injuries to key contributors to do that.

But here's where people over-reading and/or ascribing the title to the author comes in, and people take words such as "likely" or lines like "It’s just hard seeing them overcome this obstacle and achieve the ultimate goal.", and assume that the authors are saying that there's a 0% chance. The reality is that winning the SB is tough to start with, the Patriots were not the clear favorite even at the start, the Patriots have failed to finish the job since 2004, largely because of injury/illness (I think we can all agree that the year 2005 never actually happened), and the Patriots didn't have any LB depth to start with (I believe we were both pretty 'vocal' about that issue). As Karen makes clear, this is not about the season. It's about the post-season. And, as we've seen repeatedly, even one key injury can ruin your post-season. Will Mayo's be that one "key" injury? It's obviously too soon to tell, but we've seen single injuries derail this train before.

History has certainly shown us that your "only Brady" theory doesn't hold water when you're including the playoffs in the discussion, which is what Karen was doing.
 
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I agree, and I especially agree that having a LB corps as thin as this one is outright negligent roster management.


pretty strong words.

i guess that leads to two questions.

1.)Which linebackers do you think the patriots should have signed in the offseason

And

2.)Who on the current roster are you cutting to make room for those extra linebackers?

You can't have unlimited depth at every position

11 offensive starters plus backups puts you at 22 players
11 defensive players plus backups puts you at 44 players
Kicker/Punter with no backup puts you at 46 players

That gives you 7 free roster spots to add depth where you need it from a list of 21 positions(Qb only needs the starter and the backup)

It's real easy to say its negligent roster management in hindsight, but all things considered If the team was to completely collapse because we lost one lb, there are more issues on the team then LB depth.
 
But here's where people over-reading and/or ascribing the title to the author comes in, and people take words such as "likely" or lines like "It’s just hard seeing them overcome this obstacle and achieve the ultimate goal.", and assume that the authors are saying that there's a 0% chance. The reality is that winning the SB is tough to start with, the Patriots were not the clear favorite even at the start, the Patriots have failed to finish the job since 2004, largely because of injury/illness (I think we can all agree that the year 2005 never actually happened), and the Patriots didn't have any LB depth to start with. As Karen makes clear, this is not about the season. It's about the post-season. And, as we've seen repeatedly, even one key injury can ruin your post-season. Will Mayo's be that one "key" injury? It's obviously too soon to tell, but we've seen single injuries derail this train before.

History has certainly shown us that your "only Brady" theory doesn't hold water when you're including the playoffs in the discussion, which is what Karen was doing.

I think that's where we differ. I feel pretty comfortable saying that, as good as Mayo is, if we don't suffer any major injuries from here on out and still don't win the SB, then injuries won't be the reason why we didn't win. Because every team in the league is going to lose a major contributor--if not on par with Mayo, then very close to it--at some point. IMO, the only players whose injuries would effectively end our SB aspirations by themselves are Brady, Gronk, and Revis. And I don't mean 0% chance, I mean small enough chance that it warrants writing the kind of stuff that Guregian wrote in that article.
 
Every team has injuries. Blaming the Patriots not winning a SB since 2004 on injuries is naive, uninformed and wrong.
 
pretty strong words.

i guess that leads to two questions.

1.)Which linebackers do you think the patriots should have signed in the offseason

And

2.)Who on the current roster are you cutting to make room for those extra linebackers?

You can't have unlimited depth at every position

11 offensive starters plus backups puts you at 22 players
11 defensive players plus backups puts you at 44 players
Kicker/Punter with no backup puts you at 46 players

That gives you 7 free roster spots to add depth where you need it from a list of 21 positions(Qb only needs the starter and the backup)

It's real easy to say its negligent roster management in hindsight, but all things considered If the team was to completely collapse because we lost one lb, there are more issues on the team then LB depth.

You're right, you can't have unlimited depth. But there's a pretty wide gap between "unlimited depth" and "three starters followed immediately by practice squad-caliber players". In other words, the inability to have unlimited depth isn't an excuse to have no depth.

In your own evaluation, you accounted for all 11 positions having a backup. Well, who was the backup for Mayo, Collins, and Hightower? It was Deontae Skinner, an UDFA rookie who we signed off of our practice squad and immediately became a starter. There's your problem. I'm not suggesting that they should've had multiple backups all waiting in the wings in case Jerod Mayo specifically got hurt. I'm suggesting that they should've had at least one depth linebacker on the roster who had played a meaningful snap in the NFL. Instead, the Patriots chose to construct a roster where an injury to any one of their three starting LBs meant they would have to start a practice squad player who had never played a meaningful NFL snap. Those three linebacker positions are nearly a third of the starting defense, and the Pats didn't have a game-tested backup for any of them. It was incredibly easy to predict that that would backfire at some point, but even I figured that the Pats would have all three starting LBs healthy for more than the one game that they ended up getting.

As for the other part: who would I have signed? Well, technically they didn't have to make any additional signings. They could've simply not cut James Anderson. Cutting him was what moved the needle, for me, from "they're taking an understandable calculated risk" to "this makes no sense". Another alternative would be signing Woodyard this past offseason, although for the money that he ended up getting I can understand why they didn't. Neither Woodyard nor Anderson would've replaced Mayo, but they would have created some roster flexibility to move players around so that you aren't stuck relying on someone like Deontae Skinner to be a capable starting NFL LB right away.

And Skinner may end up being good. I'm rooting for it, certainly, and it's not like it would be unprecedented. Maybe he ends up being a revelation for us on par with Danny Trevathan for the Broncos last year. But it's foolish to bank on that at three different positions without any alternative to hedge against the likely outcome that he sucks. There's value in having young guys with the potential to grow, but there's also value in having guys who have proven that they can play, and there's no reason not to have both elements at work in your LB corps. This is the 2011 safety rotation all over again.
 
Mayo is one of the best LB's in the AFC and in the league. His loss is going to be tough to overcome, but it's not an absolute back-breaker. It's something the team should be able to weather as the season goes on. The back-breaking injury losses for the defense are Wilfork, Jones, Revis, and possibly McCourty. For the offense, Brady and Gronk. Don't get me wrong, as most people know my feelings about Mayo. He'll be a tough, if not impossible one to replace, but I don't see his loss being the final straw. As long as the other guys I just named stay healthy, this team should still be able to contend by the end of the season.
 
Mayo is one of the best LB's in the AFC and in the league. His loss is going to be tough to overcome, but it's not an absolute back-breaker. It's something the team should be able to weather as the season goes on. The back-breaking injury losses for the defense are Wilfork, Jones, Revis, and possibly McCourty. For the offense, Brady and Gronk. Don't get me wrong, as most people know my feelings about Mayo. He'll be a tough, if not impossible one to replace, but I don't see his loss being the final straw. As long as the other guys I just named stay healthy, this team should still be able to contend by the end of the season.

Here's the thing:

Mayo could stay on the field for all 3 downs and wasn't a liability in any area
Collins can't tackle
Hightower can't cover
The rest of the LBs are practice squad talents

I'd be much harsher towards Guregian's worrying about the loss of just one linebacker if there were an adequate replacement for him.
 
Here's the thing:

Mayo could stay on the field for all 3 downs and wasn't a liability in any area
Collins can't tackle
Hightower can't cover
The rest of the LBs are practice squad talents

I'd be much harsher towards Guregian's worrying about the loss of just one linebacker if there were an adequate replacement for him.
Oh, I don't think there is an adequate replacement for Mayo on the roster. I'm just saying the team will have an easier time weathering his loss than they would the other guys I mentioned on the defensive side of the ball. It hurts a lot but I don't think it's the straw that breaks the camel's back.
 
Oh, I don't think there is an adequate replacement for Mayo on the roster. I'm just saying the team will have an easier time weathering his loss than they would the other guys I mentioned on the defensive side of the ball. It hurts a lot but I don't think it's the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Gronk
Edelman (?) - depends on what Amendola could do in relief
Brady
Gronk
Revis
Wilfork
Mayo

To me, those are the big cogs on this topic, and McCourty might well be another one. Brady is the only 100% 'must', but all the rest are huge losses, any one (or combination) of which could end up being a fatal loss, depending upon circumstances, because we're talking about games at the high end (playoffs against top opponents). I think 2006-2013 has demonstrated that pretty clearly to us.

I'm apparently in the minority on this, though. So be it. I'll leave it there unless someone wants to continue on the subject.
 
For whatever reason, whether it is just bad luck or poor strategy in the past few years we have let reasonably priced players walk in UFA only to have the player tasked with replacing them or taking on more responsibility suffer a substantial injury.

- Welker signed with Denver and he was replaced by Amendola who suffered a groin injury in week 1 of 2013. Welker had a very good 2013 season.

- Woodhead signed with San Diego and more responsibility was given to Vereen who suffered a broken wrist in week 1 of 2013. Woodhead had a breakout season in 2013.

- Blount signed with Pittsburg making Ridley the undisputed #1 until he suffered a torn ACL and MCL in week 6 of 2014. Blount has been solid in 2014.

- Spikes/Fletcher signed with Buffalo/Tampa and Mayo was moved inside to replace him at MLB until he suffered a knee injury in week 6 of 2014. Spikes has been very productive leading the Bills in tackles during 2014. Fletcher has 22 tackles and 0.5 sacks as the #4 LB with Tampa.

- Kelly asked for his release due to financial concerns in the preseason, this request was granted, Siliga was given more responsibility until he suffered a leg injury in week 3. Kelly is starting and has been productive with Arizona.
 
For whatever reason, whether it is just bad luck or poor strategy in the past few years we have let reasonably priced players walk in UFA only to have the player tasked with replacing them or taking on more responsibility suffer a substantial injury.

- Welker signed with Denver and he was replaced by Amendola who suffered a groin injury in week 1 of 2013. Welker had a very good 2013 season.

- Woodhead signed with San Diego and more responsibility was given to Vereen who suffered a broken wrist in week 1 of 2013. Woodhead had a breakout season in 2013.

- Blount signed with Pittsburg making Ridley the undisputed #1 until he suffered a torn ACL and MCL in week 6 of 2014. Blount has been solid in 2014.

- Spikes/Fletcher signed with Buffalo/Tampa and Mayo was moved inside to replace him at MLB until he suffered a knee injury in week 6 of 2014. Spikes has been very productive leading the Bills in tackles during 2014. Fletcher has 22 tackles and 0.5 sacks as the #4 LB with Tampa.

- Kelly asked for his release due to financial concerns in the preseason, this request was granted, Siliga was given more responsibility until he suffered a leg injury in week 3. Kelly is starting and has been productive with Arizona.

That's bad luck. There is no way you could have told anyone all players replacing the ones that left would be injured.
 
That's bad luck. There is no way you could have told anyone all players replacing the ones that left would be injured.
I agree, however I do think we will put a higher value on retaining are own UFA in upcoming offseason.
 
I agree, however I do think we will put a higher value on retaining are own UFA in upcoming offseason.

I think so. But man that is so much to go wrong it's almost bizarre
 
Why are Mayo and Ridler still on 53 man roster? Is there any advantage to not IR-ing them?
 
Every team has injuries. Blaming the Patriots not winning a SB since 2004 on injuries is naive, uninformed and wrong.

Couldn't agree more.

And lets inverse this logic.

How good has been the GMing of the teams that HAVE won Superbowls since 2006?

Giants?

Steelers?

Ravens?

Packers?

Saints?

Colts?

Every single one of these recent Superbowl winning teams has had seasons that would make Belichick's critics heads explode in micromanaging angst if we mimicked some of the seasons they've had.

Deus called Belichick a lousy GM earlier today in a thread, no surprise there, but I personally don't think Belichick is a lousy GM at all.

I think his critics are micro-gm-managers without any ability to give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to moves they wouldn't have done personally.

I think they expect perfection and not one of them have gone over the GMing of these "better" GMs with anything approaching the same kind of hypercritical second guessing as they do Belichick.
 
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Couldn't agree more.

And lets inverse this logic.

How good has been the GMing of the teams that HAVE won Superbowls since 2006?

Giants?

Steelers?

Ravens?

Packers?

Saints?

Colts?

Deus called Belichick a lousy GM earlier today in a thread, no surprise there, but I personally don't think Belichick is a lousy GM at all.

I think his critics are micro-managers without the ability to give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to moves they wouldn't have done personally.

I think they expect perfection and not one of them go over the GMing of these "better" GMs with anything approaching the same kind of hypercritical second guessing as they do Belichick.
That Packers SB team had what something like 17 players on injured reserve? That was impressive.
 
For whatever reason, whether it is just bad luck or poor strategy in the past few years we have let reasonably priced players walk in UFA only to have the player tasked with replacing them or taking on more responsibility suffer a substantial injury.


1. I'm not going to derail this thread by getting into what led to Welker signing with Denver; that's been discussed multiple times and there is another thread for that topic.

2. Woodhead signed with San Diego because he could see the writing on the wall: the time had come where Vereen would take his place. Signing with the Chargers gave him the opportunity at more playing time and more job security. The game one injury to Vereen was unforeseen, and was exacerbated by the also unforeseen loss of AH. Unless the Patriots were to fully guarantee Woodhead's two-year contract, that it made sense for him to sign elsewhere - and at the time it didn't make sense for the Patriots to do that.

3. Blount had some issues with ball security (3 fumbles) and the Patriots used a fourth-round pick on his replacement. With Ridley and Vereen hitting free agency next year, the decision to draft a RB was understandable - but doing that probably meant letting Blount walk. Perhaps the Patriots should have kept him and let Bolden go, and erred on what another team would offer him. Perhaps they had a verbal agreement that the Pats could match another team's offer but that didn't happen. We'll probably never know.

4. It made perfect sense to let Spikes walk as a free agent, given his skill set and liabilities in pass coverage. He was most definitely not worth $3,250,000.

Fletcher was in a situation where he would have a legitimate opportunity to start at the beginning of the season with another team, something that was not going to happen with the Patriots. That made him more valuable to the other team, and results in a better contract ($1,200,000 guaranteed) than the value and corresponding contract with his former team.

5. As far as Tommy Kelly goes, I agree the situation was mishandled by the Patriots. Without a suitable replacement behind him - and with the uncertainty at the time regarding Vince Wilfork's recovery - his contract should have been left alone, which eventually led to his asking to be released.
 
As for the other part: who would I have signed? Well, technically they didn't have to make any additional signings. They could've simply not cut James Anderson. Cutting him was what moved the needle, for me, from "they're taking an understandable calculated risk" to "this makes no sense". Another alternative would be signing Woodyard this past offseason, although for the money that he ended up getting I can understand why they didn't. Neither Woodyard nor Anderson would've replaced Mayo, but they would have created some roster flexibility to move players around so that you aren't stuck relying on someone like Deontae Skinner to be a capable starting NFL LB right away.

So you would have been happy if BB kept the player he deemed to be not as good as the one he kept?
 
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