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JC Jackson has the best passer rating allowed in the NFL

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Sure, but first of all that draft value chart is just something somebody pulled out of thin air without any empirical data or benefit of modern analytics, and second, your method and conclusions both seem a bit convoluted to me.

ETA: would you swap the 30th pick in each round, plus an extra second round pick you happened to have, for the 23rd pick in each round? I probably wouldn’t.

No it wasn’t just “somebody”. It was Jimmy Johnson, a wildly successful coach.

And it wasn’t pulled out of “thin air”, it was done with consideration for How draft picks tended to succeed. JJ used this to evaluate his draft and make trades. You think he’d have done that and been so successful if he had pulled it out of thin air?
 
No it wasn’t just “somebody”. It was Jimmy Johnson, a wildly successful coach.

And it wasn’t pulled out of “thin air”, it was done with consideration for How draft picks tended to succeed. JJ used this to evaluate his draft and make trades. You think he’d have done that and been so successful if he had pulled it out of thin air?

Yeah but 1. JJ did that decades ago, the draft, salary cap, and league are all in completely different paradigms since then 2. Regardless of how successful he was as a coach, any NFL data nerd could construct something much better by looking at how player success correlates with draft position. Any set of numbers that JJ made up are wildly arbitrary, and woefully inadequate to prove the point you’re trying to make (which isn’t a bad point, don’t get me wrong, just don’t try to quantify it using draft value charts).
 
 
Yeah but 1. JJ did that decades ago, the draft, salary cap, and league are all in completely different paradigms since then 2. Regardless of how successful he was as a coach, any NFL data nerd could construct something much better by looking at how player success correlates with draft position. Any set of numbers that JJ made up are wildly arbitrary, and woefully inadequate to prove the point you’re trying to make (which isn’t a bad point, don’t get me wrong, just don’t try to quantify it using draft value charts).

It's just meant to be an illustration. Another poster didn't think the Patriots were at a drafting disadvantage picking late in every round, year after year. The draft value chart simply gives an idea of what the disadvantage can look like. Of course the numbers aren't exact and every team places actually different values on each pick. The point is valid, however.
 
It's just meant to be an illustration. Another poster didn't think the Patriots were at a drafting disadvantage picking late in every round, year after year. The draft value chart simply gives an idea of what the disadvantage can look like. Of course the numbers aren't exact and every team places actually different values on each pick. The point is valid, however.

I actually think the question of “would you give up a 2nd round pick to trade up from 30 to 23 in each round” is a good one.

Of course, “thread hijack” definitely applies given that JC Jackson was undrafted.
 
So when we talk about the Pats' relative draft success or failure, understand that BB routinely operates from a massive massive massive draft disadvantage. That HAS to be factored into the equation.

I've seen a number of different sets of valuations, but this also helps to explain his wheeling and dealing in the draft.

As Grantland put it, using their valuation (very different than the Jimmy Johnson chart), "it’s like [Belichick]’s been handed the 99th overall pick in each of his 15 drafts just for showing up and saying yes to overanxious teams."
 
Could, yeah. IIRC - with his signing bonus, Langi had pretty much the same AAV as a 7th-rounder. With a 2nd-round RFA tender after three years, he could have ended up making more over the 4years than a 7th-rounder. I guess Butler actually did that.

A quick point: Langi didn't actually get a large signing bonus; the CBA limits UDFA signing bonuses pretty severely (he got $15K). What he actually got was a large salary guarantee, which the CBA doesn't limit. [As an example, after La'el Collins went undrafted, the Cowboys guaranteed his entire contract.]
 
You're using a draft chart to try & prove Bill is at a disadvantage, correct?

No. I'm using to ILLUSTRATE the OBVIOUS fact that because the Patriots draft at the end of every round basically every year, he's at a major draft disadvantage, and that needs to be considered when evaluating how he actually does drafting. I'm not trying to "prove" anything. Do you see the difference?
 
I actually think the question of “would you give up a 2nd round pick to trade up from 30 to 23 in each round” is a good one.

Of course, “thread hijack” definitely applies given that JC Jackson was undrafted.

I might not give that up, but someone else might. All depends on what they're looking for.

Would you give up $1.50 for a bottle of Coke? Many times you wouldn't. Sometimes you would. But that's basically what a bottle of Coke is worth in a convenience store, whether you'd make that deal or not.
 
A quick point: Langi didn't actually get a large signing bonus; the CBA limits UDFA signing bonuses pretty severely (he got $15K). What he actually got was a large salary guarantee, which the CBA doesn't limit. [As an example, after La'el Collins went undrafted, the Cowboys guaranteed his entire contract.]

IIRC, UDFA signing bonuses are a limited "pool", to be distributed as teams see fit. AFAIK, hypothetically at least, a team could choose - "legally" - to give all of it to one UDFA.
 
Great find with these UDFA CB's one question though did James Jones tail off?? That said with Duke Dawson in the fold I hope BB stays clear of the position. And I don't care if the next Dion Sanders drops in the Draft.
 
Sure, but first of all that draft value chart is just something somebody pulled out of thin air without any empirical data or benefit of modern analytics

Not even remotely true.

Back in 1989, Jimmy Johnson was looking for a way to gain an advantage in trade transactions involving draft picks (similar to the advantages he'd enjoyed at Miami in recruiting top HS prospects). He had a couple stat geeks in the Cowboys front office compile a history of all picks-for-picks transactions, and then quantify the value exchanged, in relation to what part of a given round was involved. Obviously, a late-2nd is closer in value to an early-3rd than it is to an early-2nd - but nobody had ever bothered to try to calculate the potential value difference before.

Where actual past transactions didn't exist for specific draft picks or ranges of picks, the geeks extrapolated values and adjusted them until all the historical transactions balanced, more or less.

Johnson kept this chart exclusively in-house, and then used it for the rest of his tenure in Dallas to wrangle more pick value out of trades than going purely by back-of-the-envelope history would support. IOW, he was more able to negotiate good deals than his trading partners could.

Contrary to Chase Stuart's claim, the chart was never intended to place a value on the prospect selected at a certain spot. How could it, when those selections hadn't happened yet? The chart was intended solely to reflect how teams had historically valued various places in the "buffet line."

I'm not making this up. This is pretty much what Jimmy Johnson himself has said about the development and intent of the chart.

When Johnson left Dallas at the end of 1993, he took a copy of the chart with him. Even before that, though, scouts and other front office personnel who left the Cowboys for other teams had taken copies with them. So, by the time Johnson became the HC of the 'Fins in 1996, his draft chart had been widely adopted, and had become (informally) a "standard" reference tool for many teams. Because it worked. Even now, although many teams have made their own slight customized adjustments to the values, Johnson's original chart is still the basis for most pick-trade transactions.

A few years back, inspired by AdamJT's work in maintaining a record of such transactions, I reviewed ALL pick-trade transactions back to 1995, transposing the selection numbers into chart values to see how close each transaction came to "balancing".

As it turns out, trades involving top-5 picks have often deviated wildly from chart values (no surprise) - but in both directions - especially before the rookie wage scale was imposed. Deviations have been a bit less frequently "wild" since, but teams holding top picks sometimes still charge a "premium" above chart values, and also sometimes will "sell at discount". For picks #6-#10, the deviations from chart values typically have been much smaller, usually less than 10% "out of balance".

Furthermore, working down from about pick #11 through the rest of the draft, more than 90% of all picks-for-picks transactions come within 4% of actual chart values, with many coming within 2% of balancing exactly.

IOW, the "common wisdom" that the chart is arbitrary and doesn't reflect reality is completely incorrect.
 
No. I'm using to ILLUSTRATE the OBVIOUS fact that because the Patriots draft at the end of every round basically every year, he's at a major draft disadvantage, and that needs to be considered when evaluating how he actually does drafting. I'm not trying to "prove" anything. Do you see the difference?

I agree with the point you're trying to make.

It's also worth noting that you're arguing from a perspective of quantifiable values, and other are not.

However, you're unlikely to be able to prove your hypothesis mathematically, and no one is likely to be able to disprove your hypothesis mathematically ..... until someone decides to undertake the daunting task of going back through every one of BB's drafts since the initial Pats SB win, charting every trade he's made that involved a draft pick (even pick-for-player trades), totaling the Standard Chart Value spent, and then comparing that number to the total Player AV derived - in order to determine an ROI estimate.

And then perform the same analysis for every other team in the league.

I started in on this myself several years ago, but simply didn't have the time to continue. I deliberately did not go back to the Brady draft so as not to skew the resuts in BB's favor.

I got as far as doing three Pats drafts, and then the same for (IIRC) the Packers, Lions, Browns and Steelers. I did NOT including pick-for-player trades or UDFA signings, although I did follow the picks-for-picks trades, and had begun to calculate how much BB had gotten in return from trading a Pats player for a pick.

The total Player AV for the Pats was better than that of the Lions and Browns, and slightly worse than for the Packers and Steelers. No shocker there. However, BB's ROI was significantly superior than everyone else's. Small sample size relative to doing the whole thing, of course, but I'd still hypothesize that BB's ROI is notably higher than that for most other teams.
 
I agree with the point you're trying to make.

It's also worth noting that you're arguing from a perspective of quantifiable values, and other are not.

However, you're unlikely to be able to prove your hypothesis mathematically, and no one is likely to be able to disprove your hypothesis mathematically ..... until someone decides to undertake the daunting task of going back through every one of BB's drafts since the initial Pats SB win, charting every trade he's made that involved a draft pick (even pick-for-player trades), totaling the Standard Chart Value spent, and then comparing that number to the total Player AV derived - in order to determine an ROI estimate.

And then perform the same analysis for every other team in the league.

I started in on this myself several years ago, but simply didn't have the time to continue. I deliberately did not go back to the Brady draft so as not to skew the resuts in BB's favor.

I got as far as doing three Pats drafts, and then the same for (IIRC) the Packers, Lions, Browns and Steelers. I did NOT including pick-for-player trades or UDFA signings, although I did follow the picks-for-picks trades, and had begun to calculate how much BB had gotten in return from trading a Pats player for a pick.

The total Player AV for the Pats was better than that of the Lions and Browns, and slightly worse than for the Packers and Steelers. No shocker there. However, BB's ROI was significantly superior than everyone else's. Small sample size relative to doing the whole thing, of course, but I'd still hypothesize that BB's ROI is notably higher than that for most other teams.

Yeah and even that wouldn't necessarily give us a true "how does this guy do drafting players" measure, because one guy who is a good fit in one system may not be a good fit in another, and some teams are better at player development than others, so you could draft a "worse" guy and end up turning him into someone better. There's just so many factors.

Moreover, when it comes to trades, sometimes teams trade picks for established players. So when the Pats traded a fourth round pick for Randy Moss, they got ZERO out of that "pick" because they gave away the pick. What they acquired, however, was an absolute monster of a player. So do you factor in Moss' AV with the Pats during his tenure with them as what that fourth round pick netted? I mean it was a great use of a fourth round pick, but it was a big fat zero in terms of actually *drafting* a player with that pick.

There's just so much that goes into it. I just think it's objectively and obviously true that if you draft at the end of each round of the draft, year in and year out, you're at a drafting disadvantage over other franchises because every round they're getting to pick before you.

So I'm just using the draft value chart as one way to illustrate this point. Pretty clearly, BB has been pretty good at drafting and finding UDFAs - it's just not possible to maintain this level of dominance, in a league that is designed to prevent exactly this kind of dominance, without drafting and finding good young players. You cannot continually build your team around more expensive veterans - that can last a little while but not 18 freaking years.
 
Great find with these UDFA CB's one question though did James Jones tail off?? That said with Duke Dawson in the fold I hope BB stays clear of the position. And I don't care if the next Dion Sanders drops in the Draft.
Well if it's a upgrade from Jackson or Gilmore you have to pull that trigger I find that incredibly unlikely.
You need to go D line D line Linebacker Linebacker rinse and repeat
 
No. I'm using to ILLUSTRATE the OBVIOUS fact that because the Patriots draft at the end of every round basically every year, he's at a major draft disadvantage, and that needs to be considered when evaluating how he actually does drafting. I'm not trying to "prove" anything. Do you see the difference?
So exactly like I said, you're trying to use the trade chart to prove Bill is at a disadvantage bc he picks lower.

Letting countless good/great players pass at the end of 1 & so on has absolutely nothing to do w the trade chart. It's missing on players.
 
Yeah and even that wouldn't necessarily give us a true "how does this guy do drafting players" measure, because one guy who is a good fit in one system may not be a good fit in another, and some teams are better at player development than others, so you could draft a "worse" guy and end up turning him into someone better. There's just so many factors.

Moreover, when it comes to trades, sometimes teams trade picks for established players. So when the Pats traded a fourth round pick for Randy Moss, they got ZERO out of that "pick" because they gave away the pick. What they acquired, however, was an absolute monster of a player. So do you factor in Moss' AV with the Pats during his tenure with them as what that fourth round pick netted? I mean it was a great use of a fourth round pick, but it was a big fat zero in terms of actually *drafting* a player with that pick.

There's just so much that goes into it. I just think it's objectively and obviously true that if you draft at the end of each round of the draft, year in and year out, you're at a drafting disadvantage over other franchises because every round they're getting to pick before you.

So I'm just using the draft value chart as one way to illustrate this point. Pretty clearly, BB has been pretty good at drafting and finding UDFAs - it's just not possible to maintain this level of dominance, in a league that is designed to prevent exactly this kind of dominance, without drafting and finding good young players. You cannot continually build your team around more expensive veterans - that can last a little while but not 18 freaking years.
This is false. It's your opinion, which is wrong. Again we've let a lot of players pass us by in RD1, 2 etc That has nithnot to do with the trade chart & everything to do with missing on players/being wrong on prospects.

It's not my opinion. Its a fact.

Again using the trade chart to prove we're selecting lesser prospects is incredibly dumb on so many levels.
 
So exactly like I said, you're trying to use the trade chart to prove Bill is at a disadvantage bc he picks lower.

No, not exactly like you said. "Illustrating a point" is not the same thing as trying to "prove" a point.

The fact that the Patriots routinely draft at the end of each round (barring trades) means it's objectively true that they're at a drafting disadvantage compared to other teams. IT'S HOW THE DRAFT IS DESIGNED TO WORK. You give worse teams a drafting ADVANTAGE by letting them pick higher in each round.

That anyone is arguing this point is just beyond my comprehension. It's literally how the system is designed to work.

Letting countless good/great players pass at the end of 1 & so on has absolutely nothing to do w the trade chart. It's missing on players.

Every team makes mistakes, including the Patriots. Nobody is arguing otherwise.
 
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