Its early but Patriots will regret not taking Ladd Mcconkey

[Wozzy]

Those "tiny toddler mitts" caught plenty of passes in College. And drops haven't been his main issue.

5th in the Big Twelve… I’m holding out hope for TT one more season. Hopefully he stays healthy which has been his biggest problem next to not having a QB who could throw deep.

 

[Force Zero Boomer]

Those "tiny toddler mitts" caught plenty of passes in College. And drops haven't been his main issue.

“In college” is the key phrase. In the NFL there will be many more situations in which he can’t get his hands exactly where he wants them. And DBs will try to rake the ball with tighter coverage. And then there’s ball security during the run after. That’s where the bigger mitts come in.

 

[Force Zero Boomer]

Hand size and correlation to catching balls… is there one?

I don’t recall a preponderance of drops by Tyquan in college or his limited time here. I remember one drop as egregious, but watching a single tweet on loop isn’t the same as a reoccurring problem.

I bet there is a correlation, but there’s more than the initial catch. Surviving the rake by the DB and ball security during the run after. I mean, there’s a reason they measure it.

And as I said in another comment, in college often does not translate to the NFL. Coverage is tighter. Players are stronger.

 

[DaBruinz]

Separation in college does not guarantee separation in the NFL. The NFL has bigger, stronger, quicker, faster and more talented players. Polk ran a pedestrian 4.52s 40 and declined to participate in the 7 cone and shuttle (very telling).

During OTAs he looked slow to me, but I am not an NFL evaluator. Still, I have not seen a quote from any NFL commentator (former scout, player, or coach) saying that Polk was getting good separation during OTAs or minicamp. If you have some, I would like to see them, because I looked and found none.

What was Edelman's 40? What about Welker's? Jerry Rice's? Anquan Boldin's? David Givens?

Many of the top College WRs declined to run in the 3-cone and Short Shuttle. Including the likes of MHJ, Nabers, Thomas, Mitchell, Coleman, Worthy, Legette, and Burton. Corley and Walker only ran the 3-cone.

So, how is it "very telling" when so many of the top WRs chose not to do it?

 

[Wozzy]

I bet there is a correlation, but there’s more than the initial catch. Surviving the rake by the DB and ball security during the run after. I mean, there’s a reason they measure it.

And as I said in another comment, in college often does not translate to the NFL. Coverage is tighter. Players are stronger.

Tyreek is the size of a smurf, Brandon Cooks is also tiny… I question it.

 

[DaBruinz]

“In college” is the key phrase. In the NFL there will be many more situations in which he can’t get his hands exactly where he wants them. And DBs will try to rake the ball with tighter coverage. And then there’s ball security during the run after. That’s where the bigger mitts come in.

Actually, it's not. But you keep on thinking that there is..

Ball Security? 0 Fumbles in the limited number of touches to this point.

 

[Force Zero Boomer]

What was Edelman's 40? What about Welker's? Jerry Rice's? Anquan Boldin's? David Givens?

Many of the top College WRs declined to run in the 3-cone and Short Shuttle. Including the likes of MHJ, Nabers, Thomas, Mitchell, Coleman, Worthy, Legette, and Burton. Corley and Walker only ran the 3-cone.

So, how is it "very telling" when so many of the top WRs chose not to do it?

I never said that measurables were the determining factors, and as you know the weight given to stats differ based on position. Quickness is generally considered essential for slot receivers, for example. Edelman’s straight line speed was average but his 3 cone was elite.

One can always cite examples of players who succeeded despite not having a great stat for some objective measurable compared with his peers. I’m not denying that can happen, but other traits that aren’t objectively measurable come into play even more. We will see if Polk has them. N’Keal Harry didn’t.

 

[Force Zero Boomer]

Actually, it's not. But you keep on thinking that there is..

Ball Security? 0 Fumbles in the limited number of touches to this point.

There is long list of great college players who could not make it in the NFL. The reasons for failure are varied and sometimes multidimensional, but there is zero doubt physical characteristics play a role.

Small hands can be overcome, but really, Thorton’s hands are off the charts small, especially for a guy expected to play outside. Name one outside receiver with hands smaller than 8.5” who has had a good career. I couldn’t find one.

 

[DaBruinz]

Tyreek is the size of a smurf, Brandon Cooks is also tiny… I question it.

Hand Sizes for different receivers:

Tyreek Hill - 8in
Brandon Cooks - 9 5/8
Devonta Smith - 9 1/4
Jaxon Smith-Njigba - 9
Amon-ra St. Brown - 9 1/8
Davante Adams - 9
N'Keal Harry - 9 1/2
Zay Jones - 9
Christian Kirk - 9 7/8
Justin Jefferson - 9 1/8
Tank Dell 8 5/8

 

[DaBruinz]

I never said that measurables were the determining factors, and as you know the weight given to stats differ based on position. Quickness is generally considered essential for slot receivers, for example. Edelman’s straight line speed was average but his 3 cone was elite.

One can always cite examples of players who succeeded despite not having a great stat for some objective measurable compared with his peers. I’m not denying that can happen, but other traits that aren’t objectively measurable come into play even more. We will see if Polk has them. N’Keal Harry didn’t.

No. You never said that measurables were the determining factors. But measurements was the first thing you went to with the claim that Polk's 40 time was Pedestrian. f

It's always a hoot when people like yourself make statements and then immediately start back-tracking with excuses when plenty of examples are brought out that question the statement made.

40 time is not game speed. It isn't necessarily a predictor of game speed either. Jakobi Meyers is a perfect example of this.

What's also hilarious is that you questioned Polk's integrity because he didn't run the SS and 3-cone, yet I haven't seen you do so for the other WRs mentioned. Guys like Legette, MHJ, Nabers, etc. Why is that? Why is it telling for POLK but not for those guys?

 

[DaBruinz]

There is long list of great college players who could not make it in the NFL. The reasons for failure are varied and sometimes multidimensional, but there is zero doubt physical characteristics play a role.

Small hands can be overcome, but really, Thorton’s hands are off the charts small, especially for a guy expected to play outside. Name one outside receiver with hands smaller than 8.5” who has had a good career. I couldn’t find one.

Just stop. Tyreek Hill was already pointed out to you, And you keep digging that hole you're in.

 

[Wozzy]

No. You never said that measurables were the determining factors. But measurements was the first thing you went to with the claim that Polk's 40 time was Pedestrian. f

It's always a hoot when people like yourself make statements and then immediately start back-tracking with excuses when plenty of examples are brought out that question the statement made.

40 time is not game speed. It isn't necessarily a predictor of game speed either. Jakobi Meyers is a perfect example of this.

What's also hilarious is that you questioned Polk's integrity because he didn't run the SS and 3-cone, yet I haven't seen you do so for the other WRs mentioned. Guys like Legette, MHJ, Nabers, etc. Why is that? Why is it telling for POLK but not for those guys?

Agility/mobility or separation is plainly visible in shuttle and cone drills, if someone doesn’t participate in them.. it’s just guessing to suggest they don’t have mobility.

Polk and Baler were really successful in college, had a lot of production. We’ll see how it translates to the pros but they look shifty and mobile based on college results. We’ll see, there’s an element of mystery there.

 

[The Gr8est]

What was Edelman's 40? What about Welker's? Jerry Rice's? Anquan Boldin's? David Givens?

Many of the top College WRs declined to run in the 3-cone and Short Shuttle. Including the likes of MHJ, Nabers, Thomas, Mitchell, Coleman, Worthy, Legette, and Burton. Corley and Walker only ran the 3-cone.

So, how is it "very telling" when so many of the top WRs chose not to do it?

Edelman not only participated in the 3-cone, he was elite.

I don’t know if his time was ever bested.

 

[BadMoFo]

It's amazing how every team's rookies in non-contact, non-padded training camps look like a first-ballot HOFer.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Tyquan Thornton and Boutte (another terrible name) have clean slates. Then you have newly drafted rookies Baker and Polk. If 1or 2 guys show something in camp, Bourne and Osborne are going to sweat.

Bourne was mostly a slot/passing down guy in SF and Douglas has that position taken care of. So now he fighting the outside guys.

 

[FredFromDartmouth]

maybe Pats thought his name sounds too much like Mac’s name

Many guys with feminine sounding names turn into tough guys since they got in so many fights when they were young. No so many fights when older--remember how the Fonz said that someone picked a fight with him once...and never again.

Take Claire Claire Chenault of the Flying Tigers for instance. Would you tease this guy about his name?




Then there is Marion Robert Morrison:


And Lee Marvin, etc.

 

[Force Zero Boomer]

No. You never said that measurables were the determining factors. But measurements was the first thing you went to with the claim that Polk's 40 time was Pedestrian. f

It’s actually below average, slightly. I was being generous. Pedestrian is an apt descriptor. Not sure why that’s an issue.

It's always a hoot when people like yourself make statements and then immediately start back-tracking with excuses when plenty of examples are brought out that question the statement made.

I haven’t back tracked on a single thing or made one excuse.

40 time is not game speed. It isn't necessarily a predictor of game speed either. Jakobi Meyers is a perfect example of this.

I never said it was.

What's also hilarious is that you questioned Polk's integrity because he didn't run the SS and 3-cone, yet I haven't seen you do so for the other WRs mentioned. Guys like Legette, MHJ, Nabers, etc. Why is that? Why is it telling for POLK but not for those guys?

I didn’t question his integrity. If he’s likely to underperform in those drills relative to his peers, it makes sense for him to skip them. If I was his agent, I would tell him to skip them, and let teams decide on other criteria. Aside from injury, why else would he skip them? If he’s slow on those drills, it can only hurt his draft position, and skipping them entirely probably hurts him less.

Word of advice: using straw men is bad form. I take care not to put words in people’s mouths, and so should you, otherwise we stray from the discussion. I’m not looking to “win”, and I enjoy hearing the opinions of others offered in good faith, even if I don’t agree.

 

[Force Zero Boomer]

Just stop. Tyreek Hill was already pointed out to you, And you keep digging that hole you're in.

There is no hole. There are always exceptions and outliers, and those don’t prove that measurables don’t matter. They do.

 

[Wozzy]

Edelman not only participated in the 3-cone, he was elite.

I don’t know if his time was ever bested.

Does Belichick care or pay attention to measurables? Enough to rattle of a player's shuttle time 14 years later...

“It’s hard to really compare anybody to Branch,” Belichick said Sunday morning before practice. “Branch had a rare quickness. I mean, what’d he run, like a three-seven short-shuttle? You just don’t see that. Deion was very, very quick and very smart. I’m not saying there aren’t other smart receivers, but Deion was really a smart receiver and very, very quick. We’ve had quick guys like Troy Brown, and Julian Edelman, and Wes Welker, guys like that. But it wasn’t Deion, they didn’t have Deion’s kind of quickness.” - BB

www.boston.com/sports/new-england-patriots/2016/08/10/bill-belichick-no-patriots-receiver-was-as-quick-as-deion-branch

People arguing against measurables are similar to flat earthers, they’re arguing against science. It's absurd... and even the players who buck the trend and make it despite being average (Malcolm Butler), they still don't have bad measurables.

 

[Sicilian]

For the first time in his short career Thornton has a QB who can throw a deep ball... let's see when the pads come on.

Thornton's problems have been as much about KEEPING those pads on, as they have been what he does when they are. Definitely give him a chance in a new system with a competent deep ball QB, but he already missed time in mini-camp, so he's got to consistently get on the field for most of training camp first.