Is the NFL doing the right thing????

[Pats726]

[QUOTE he lied to the commish also HAS to be taken into account.

I keep seeing this statement. How can you say he lied to the commish if he hasn't actually been convicted yet? Maybe he actually was telling the truth. I personally don't believe he is but this is still America and he should not be tried in the court of public opinion. Give him his day in court and if he is convicted then he deserves everything he gets. If he is found not guilty then everyone who had him set to hang needs to apologize and get off his back.[/QUOTE] Firstly...what I think of Vick and MOST of America does not ride with a convitction or not..he's lowlife scum at best...if anyone needs to apologize it is Vick himself...maybe there is a tooth fairy as well..PLEASE!!! Jow about Vick and an apology for all teh dead dogs found on his property??? The fact of an indictment and a cloud over him is bringing MUCH tarnish to the game, to football and to the Falcons. That is a fact!! But there ARE facts in this case that are indefensable..the live and dead dogs on his property as is the blood found all over the place and the many dog fighjting paraphanalia found. Have you read the indictment?? Or do you just wish to apologize for a creep like him and make excuses. The standard for impacting the game and suspending him is much lower than a conviction..and he should be gone from the game until after his court dates. What statement has Micheal Vick made about what was found on his property?? If he ha dnothing to do with it, why isn't he outraged and cooperating with police?? If you can't answer those questions..you are just another apolgist..I hope he is convicted and does his time..but unless there is evidence of his innocence in this I will think the same of him.

 

[Pats726]

Heard on ESPN that the Falcons, Goodell and the NFLPA are working to collaborate a way for Vick to take a leave of abscence. I think it needs to be done..reasonable and the best way to deal with it all. I am pleased that they are doing it and preventing the circus and the stain from the NFL which WILL happen if something is not done.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Heard on ESPN that the Falcons, Goodell and the NFLPA are working to collaborate a way for Vick to take a leave of abscence. I think it needs to be done..reasonable and the best way to deal with it all. I am pleased that they are doing it and preventing the circus and the stain from the NFL which WILL happen if something is not done.

All somehow removing Vick will do at this juncture is placate a hysterical segment of the fan base that possibly believes Vick is the lone culprit in the NFL and if he's out of sight it won't be an NFL fans problem anymore. There is a longstanding subculture of dogfighting in the league, and the powers that be have been well aware of it for some time - because players spoke openly about it amongst themselves with little fear of reprisal. Some guesstimate as many as 10-20% of NFL players, many of whom come from rural areas, have participated as spectators (and bettors) or owners of fighting dogs for some time now. I hope those estimates are way high, but once upon a time I assumed estimates that half of the athletes in MLB and the NFL were on some form of steroids was insane.

I think the league and the Feds are hoping that this prosecution will go a long way towards erradicating that subculture among all professional athletes, not because they suddenly develop remorse or moral fiber, but because they genuinely fear any further involvement could jeopardize their career. It would take bringing down a $130M superstar like Vick under full media glare to even get their undivided attention as a group.

So while I want him punished I also don't want the underlying problem within the NFL, including a culture that has tolerated the existance of that very subculture for many years, somehow temporarily swept under the rug. I am much more concerned about seeing him convicted, and based on that as well as the gambling undertones and hopefully yet facing state prosecution on animal cruelty charges and being a pathological liar to boot, suspended for good. I am less concerned about what happens to or with him between now and then. In fact having to deal with his mess daily, not to mention watching him stumble through yet another offense, could make his example even more instructive as his peers (and 31 other NFL owners who contemplate making exceptions to good judgement based on talent) get to watch what happens when Joe Horn decides he no longer can support his embattled and still erratic new QB...

Just understand the stain you worry about elimiminating existed in the NFL long before this particular indictment brought it to your attention. Michael may be the face of evil, but there are a lot of guys hiding just behind him in the shadows.

 

[Tunescribe]

There is a longstanding subculture of dogfighting in the league, and the powers that be have been well aware of it for some time - because players spoke openly about it amongst themselves with little fear of reprisal. Some guesstimate as many as 10-20% of NFL players, many of whom come from rural areas, have participated as spectators (and bettors) or owners of fighting dogs for some time now.

Where did you get this information, Mo?

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Where did you get this information, Mo?

Just listening and reading, Tune. It's out there. The Humane Sociaety has been tracking professional athlete involvement in it for some time. It's the reason guys like Portis and others without first thinking say they don't know what the big deal is. They know it's existed for a long time now and it's not been uncommon until now of course for players to openly talk about it or their penchant for it or involvement in it amongst themselves. Some guys fish, some hunt, some ride hogs, some date supermodels, while others head off to a good dog fight to unwind.

 

[Pats726]

Just listening and reading, Tune. It's out there. The Humane Sociaety has been tracking professional athlete involvement in it for some time.

What have you ben listening to reading?? Those are pretty serious charges, especially that the league is well aware of it. If what you say is true, one would think the league would do it's best to take care of anyone involved with it. It's almost criminal then that Tags and others knew about it and did nothing. I am sure dogfighting existed long before Ookie was involved, but how large and well known is this subculture? How many players are we talking about 10-15?? Or 100s?? I agree it all needs to be eradicted.

 

[Tunescribe]

Just listening and reading, Tune. It's out there. The Humane Sociaety has been tracking professional athlete involvement in it for some time. It's the reason guys like Portis and others without first thinking say they don't know what the big deal is. They know it's existed for a long time now and it's not been uncommon until now of course for players to openly talk about it or their penchant for it or involvement in it amongst themselves. Some guys fish, some hunt, some ride hogs, some date supermodels, while others head off to a good dog fight to unwind.

A couple points following up on this: Mentioning people like Portis (and Marcellus Wiley who said on NFLN that Vick's talent will enable him to "rise above" this situation), REALLY makes me wonder how such stupid, socially bereft people can play professional football. It almost suggests that the game is not as demanding as it's made out to be. Or, perhaps the coaches just know how to compensate for certain cretins with great physical talent (including Vick, of course).

My second observation, which may not be PC: Apparently this issue has a strong racial component, in that dogfighting insofar as NFL players are concerned appears associated with black hip-hop/gangsta culture. More and more, the off-field problems Goodell faces appear to involve criminal activity spun from that culture. I personally don't know enough about it, but intend to learn more.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Well ESPN's hooded informant claimed to have knowledge of 30 or so NFL players alone. I doubt he bumped into all of the participants.

There is a big difference between knowing something exists and being able to prove it to the extent you can discipline (or arrest or indict or convict) someone. It seems incomprehensible to think there could be hundreds of players involved even on some level, but a radio reporter in Atlanta claims he's been told there are upwards of 300 players somehow involved in the same ring Vick is being accused of masterminding... Could be an exaggeration, but then that's what we all said about Canseco's claims when they first came out...

Again, PETA and the Humane Society have "known" about this for some time but this is such a dangerous and secretive culture it's hard to infiltrate to the extent you can gather the kind of hard evidence that would lead directly to a prosecution. I read an article today by a former undercover investigator who infiltrated some of these rings and these are scary people with no conscience who are very careful when it comes to protecting themselves from overt detection when it comes to the actual fights. And in many cases they have the cooperation of local officials built in as part of the subculture.

 

[Pats726]

A couple points following up on this: Mentioning people like Portis (and Marcellus Wiley who said on NFLN that Vick's talent will enable him to "rise above" this situation), REALLY makes me wonder how such stupid, socially bereft people can play professional football. It almost suggests that the game is not as demanding as it's made out to be. Or, perhaps the coaches just know how to compensate for certain cretins with great physical talent (including Vick, of course).

My second observation, which may not be PC: Apparently this issue has a strong racial component, in that dogfighting insofar as NFL players are concerned appears associated with black hip-hop/gangsta culture. More and more, the off-field problems Goodell faces appear to involve criminal activity spun from that culture. I personally don't know enough about it, but intend to learn more.

I don't know enough about it either..whether it's REALLY related to the hip hop culture OR just a totally different subculture alltogether with many elements. Clearly, the mainstream public knows very little about this in many ways.

 

[Tunescribe]

I don't know enough about it either..whether it's REALLY related to the hip hop culture OR just a totally different subculture alltogether with many elements. Clearly, the mainstream public knows very little about this in many ways.

One mention I picked up recently is that some gangs have taken to fighting their dogs rather than each other to determine the outcome of turf battles. Perhaps Vick's operation was an extrapolation of that, culturally, with the added component of high-stakes gambling.

The don't call 'em "pit" bulls for nothing, apparently.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Well ESPN's hooded informant claimed to have knowledge of 30 or so NFL players alone. I doubt he bumped into all of the participants.

There is a big difference between knowing something exists and being able to prove it to the extent you can discipline (or arrest or indict or convict) someone. It seems incomprehensible to think there could be hundreds of players involved even on some level, but a radio reporter in Atlanta claims he's been told there are upwards of 300 players somehow involved in the same ring Vick is being accused of masterminding... Could be an exaggeration, but then that's what we all said about Canseco's claims when they first came out...

Again, PETA and the Humane Society have "known" about this for some time but this is such a dangerous and secretive culture it's hard to infiltrate to the extent you can gather the kind of hard evidence that would lead directly to a prosecution. I read an article today by a former undercover investigator who infiltrated some of these rings and these are scary people with no conscience who are very careful when it comes to protecting themselves from overt detection when it comes to the actual fights. And in many cases they have the cooperation of local officials built in as part of the subculture.

Pure unwarranted speculation, but I can't stop myself.
Maybe that's why the local DA slow rolled the investigation, defending Vick, and the Feds had to take over. Maybe via a phonecall from security in Goodell's office trying to nip this in the bud before it became further entrenched.

 

[Pats726]

Well ESPN's hooded informant claimed to have knowledge of 30 or so NFL players alone. I doubt he bumped into all of the participants.

There is a big difference between knowing something exists and being able to prove it to the extent you can discipline (or arrest or indict or convict) someone. It seems incomprehensible to think there could be hundreds of players involved even on some level, but a radio reporter in Atlanta claims he's been told there are upwards of 300 players somehow involved in the same ring Vick is being accused of masterminding... Could be an exaggeration, but then that's what we all said about Canseco's claims when they first came out...

Again, PETA and the Humane Society have "known" about this for some time but this is such a dangerous and secretive culture it's hard to infiltrate to the extent you can gather the kind of hard evidence that would lead directly to a prosecution. I read an article today by a former undercover investigator who infiltrated some of these rings and these are scary people with no conscience who are very careful when it comes to protecting themselves from overt detection when it comes to the actual fights. And in many cases they have the cooperation of local officials built in as part of the subculture.

Ther's no doubt that in a lot of small towns..a few dollars here and there go a long way..I am not at all surprised that THAt would be the case or that there is a LOT of difficulty getting deeper into it all. I think 200 is a way large number..an average of almost 10 per team?? THAt seems unreasonable..maybe including ex-players and hangers on..maybe..but THAT is rather sad.

 

[Tunescribe]

Watching the NFL Network. So, they phoned Joe Horn (now with the Falcons) to ask him how Vick is FEELING. How he is FEELING?! Are we supposed to be worried about how the scumbag is FEELING, like he's some sort of victim in all this? Un-freakin'-believable. Poor Michael Vick, animal murderer. He's been caught and can't understand why the big 'ol federal meanies are raining on his parade. Why do I keep getting surprised by this insanity? The only answer I can come up with is I must be getting old.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Vick said he feels dog tired

 

[Bella*chick]

Watching the NFL Network. So, they phoned Joe Horn (now with the Falcons) to ask him how Vick is FEELING. How he is FEELING?! Are we supposed to be worried about how the scumbag is FEELING, like he's some sort of victim in all this? Un-freakin'-believable. Poor Michael Vick, animal murderer. He's been caught and can't understand why the big 'ol federal meanies are raining on his parade. Why do I keep getting surprised by this insanity? The only answer I can come up with is I must be getting old.

That reminds me, I was listening to ESPN radio today and some Falcons player was going on about Vick and how he's a "changed man". How he's now the first one in, last to leave, hasn't missed a practice or a workout. LOL. The obvious implication, of course, is that he used to miss them all the time. Now he's getting pats on the back for DOING WHAT HE'S BEING PAID 100 MILLION DOLLARS TO DO. You just have to laugh, if bitterly. The blinders some people have on when it comes to this subhuman piece of garbage is beyond me.

 

[Tunescribe]

The blinders some people have on when it comes to this subhuman piece of garbage is beyond me.

I find it scary as hell, actually. People without a conscience ... people with no true sense of right and wrong ... people soulless enough to torture and kill other living beings for "fun" and then feel bad for themselves when caught. Yeah, I'm sure Vick is "a changed man," just like Ray Lewis "found the lord" after two men suspiciously died in his presence.

Pacman Jones, Rae Carruth, Ray Lewis, Michael Vick, O.J. Simpson ... I'm trying really, really hard to keep people like this and the things they've done from affecting the way I feel about the NFL. I wish I didn't have to. In fact, I kind of wish it was the NFL circa 1960s all over again.

 

[Ghost of Ben Dreith]

I haven't read all the posts in this thread...so I apologize if this has already been stated...

No...the NFL is not doing the right thing......

The NFL should should spread Cheez Whiz and roast beef, and maybe some turkey...all over this POS's balls/sack/pole along with any other sensitive areas of his body they can think of.....and then....I...will let the dogs out....and will forever be the answer to that all too familiar question.

This POS needs to go....

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Watching the NFL Network. So, they phoned Joe Horn (now with the Falcons) to ask him how Vick is FEELING. How he is FEELING?! Are we supposed to be worried about how the scumbag is FEELING, like he's some sort of victim in all this? Un-freakin'-believable. Poor Michael Vick, animal murderer. He's been caught and can't understand why the big 'ol federal meanies are raining on his parade. Why do I keep getting surprised by this insanity? The only answer I can come up with is I must be getting old.

I think Rod Woodson is feeling old too. Wiley still doesn't get it AT ALL- says Mike is better off surrounded by his friends and family (teamates, not the real family...) and this is no different than facing a hostile road crowd which players do all the time - Michael needs to show he can rise above it and perform. Woodson reminded him that it's not just about Mike. Some of his teamates may not be able to rise above the circus. His presence could tarnish the league. Today's players are way more self absorbed than the guys Rod came up with. Rod also has a problem with the concept of paying Vick to take a LOA to clear up business he failed to clear up earlier in his house (as he so aptly puts it). Says it sets a bad precedent. Vick should do the right thing for the team and the league and take an unpaid LOA. But I think Rod knows on some level he won't.

 

[Pats726]

Mo....Do you have any links to any articles or information about this subculture?? I am very interested in learning more about that and if it's as widespread as you have mentioned. If it's been going on for years under Tags, THAT is incredibly outrageous and clearly, the NFL under Goodell needs to really clean it all up. I'm actually believing it more and more and just wish to learn more about it, to see what really what existed before and what can be done now..if Vick is really more the top of the iceberg of a real cancer that has been hidden or more an isolated case. If you wish to send by PM rather than posting, I understand, but I am truly interested in finding out more about this and doing my part to help irradicate it.
I must say, oddly, last evening, I ran into a former NFL player and talked to him for about 10 minutes about this and he admitted that he thought it was quite widespread and that Tags did not do what was needed.

 

[QuiGon]

I must say, oddly, last evening, I ran into a former NFL player and talked to him for about 10 minutes about this and he admitted that he thought it was quite widespread and that Tags did not do what was needed.

I highly doubt that what Vick is alleged to have done is all that widespread... I am not defending the practice, but there's miles of difference between a guy who goes to 2-3 fights per year compared to the egregious offenses Vick is accused of.