Is the NFL doing the right thing????

[Pats726]

I highly doubt that what Vick is alleged to have done is all that widespread... I am not defending the practice, but there's miles of difference between a guy who goes to 2-3 fights per year compared to the egregious offenses Vick is accused of.

There is a LARGE difference, that is absolutely true...but how widespread is the practice of this? How many guys in the NFL have dogs and go to these events? Is it 20-30? Over 100? 200?? What is their involvement with it? How large of a subculture in the NFL is it?? There is no doubt in my mind that what Vick has allegedly done, from raising dogs, training and fighting them and then killing them, is NOT what many if any other NFL players have done. If that is how you took what I said, that is incorrect and that is not what I meant. That this is a subculture that is practiced and goes on in the underground is more the case. Vick may be more the egregious offender and purveyer of these barbaric things, but the whole thing is totally wrong and anyone connected to it, whether as deeply involved as Vick allegedly was or just going once or twice, should be dealt with strongly by the league. Yes, there's quite a difference between the two, but both are wrong...and I would not say miles difference..because I think anyone attending these events is only a few steps away, if even that, morally.

 

[OhExaulted1]

Vick said he feels dog tired

Maybe he should be electrocuted and put out of his misery, but only after we let a couple of his abused dogs chew on him for awhile.

 

[Tunescribe]

Stupd Emmitt Smith defending Vick. STUPID STUPID STUPID!

http://cbs.sportsline.com/nfl/story/10264644/rss

That's right Emmitt, you moron. Make a public statement to the national media without reading the indictment. Stupid idiot. Why was this even reported???

Smith: Feds squeezing Vick in order to catch bigger offenders

July 21, 2007
CBS SportsLine.com wire reports
SOUTH BEND, Ind. -- Emmitt Smith thinks federal investigators targeted Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick to get to others involved in an alleged dogfighting operation.
"He's the biggest fish in the whole doggone pond right now so they're putting the squeeze on him to get to everyone else," Smith said Saturday.
Vick and three associates are accused of competitive dogfighting, procuring and training pit bulls for fighting, and conducting the enterprise across state lines. Vick is scheduled to be arraigned Thursday in federal court in Richmond, Va.
Smith, who was enshrined in the College Football Hall of Fame on Saturday along with 19 others, was asked what he thought about the Vick situation. He said he believes federal investigators are trying to pressure Vick to turn on the others.
"Now, granted he might have been to a dogfight a time or two, maybe five times, maybe 20 times, may have bet some money, but he's not the one you're after. He's not the one you're after, he's just the one whose going to take the fall -- publicly."
But Smith also placed some blame on Vick, saying athletes need to realize they have to break ties with some people from their past "because where we're going, it's not for everybody to come with us. You have to learn to cut some of those guys loose. Because the things that they do, we cannot do no more."
Smith, the NFL's career leading rusher, said young athletes have to make decisions about who they associate with because it could harm their careers.
"From an athletic standpoint, from an endorsement standpoint, from an investment standpoint, from a business standpoint, those doors are opening. The question is now, do you want to do the same old junk you've been doing for 18 or 20-something years, or do you want to step into the real world of business and handle your business like you're supposed to handle it?"

 

[PatsFaninAZ]

Is there a possibility that he's either innocent or much less involved than people think right now? Sure there is. Not a huge possibility, but not entirely negligible.

So the question comes down to this. Which is worse: (1) You suspend him and take him away from his livelihood but it turns out you were hasty. (2) You don't suspend him and it turns out he's guilty as dirt.

My view? 1 is worse. There will always be time to drop the hammer on him hard if number 2 turns out to be the case. Just too many instances of rushes to judgment in our nation's recent history for me to view the sin of number 2 as worse than the sin of number 1. It's also not the kind of situation where letting him play creates an ongoing danger to any other people or animals. (So, it's not like a teacher accused of doing bad things, where you have the decision to make that allowing him to continue to teach while the charges are pending could put others in harm's way.)

Now, don't get me wrong, I think he's guilty. But I'm honest enough to admit it's just a hunch at this point. At the end of the day, grand jury testimony is not public, and I really don't know what the evidence is. If in a couple of months it turns out that there is solid evidence more than hearsay, then yeah, nail him, even without a conviction. But right now, just based on an indictment? Not enough for me yet.

I'm also not really moved by the 95 percent number that gets misleadingly thrown around in the press. Yes, most federal indictments result in convictions, but that's only because most federal indictments -- probaby the vast vast majority -- are for easy to prove crimes where the guy is poor and busted dead to rights. Drug possession with intent to distribute and illegal rentry into the country after deportation occuply the vast majority of every federal court's criminal docket. When you start talking about less frequently indicted federal crimes -- mail and wire fraud; securities violations; the statute under which Vick is indicted; civil rights violations -- the numbers are not 95 percent. Also, most federal indictments lead to pleas. This one will likely not. The rate for non-drug cases that actually get tried is nothing like the numbers in the press.

It's kind of like the debate about whether it's better to have a legal system that occasionally allows an guilty man to go free or one that occasionally allows an innocent man to go to jail.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Re: Stupd Emmitt Smith defending Vick. STUPID STUPID STUPID!

http://cbs.sportsline.com/nfl/story/10264644/rss

SOUTH BEND, Ind. -- Emmitt Smith thinks federal investigators targeted Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick to get to others involved in an alleged dogfighting operation.
"He's the biggest fish in the whole doggone pond right now so they're putting the squeeze on him to get to everyone else," Smith said Saturday.

PWP - Say what? The feds go for the big fish, NOT the little fish. Hello!

Vick and three associates are accused of competitive dogfighting, procuring and training pit bulls for fighting, and conducting the enterprise across state lines. Vick is scheduled to be arraigned Thursday in federal court in Richmond, Va.
Smith, who was enshrined in the College Football Hall of Fame on Saturday along with 19 others, was asked what he thought about the Vick situation. He said he believes federal investigators are trying to pressure Vick to turn on the others.
"Now, granted he might have been to a dogfight a time or two, maybe five times, maybe 20 times, may have bet some money, but he's not the one you're after. He's not the one you're after, he's just the one whose going to take the fall -- publicly."
But Smith also placed some blame on Vick, saying athletes need to realize they have to break ties with some people from their past "because where we're going, it's not for everybody to come with us. You have to learn to cut some of those guys loose. Because the things that they do, we cannot do no more."
Smith, the NFL's career leading rusher, said young athletes have to make decisions about who they associate with because it could harm their careers.
"From an athletic standpoint, from an endorsement standpoint, from an investment standpoint, from a business standpoint, those doors are opening. The question is now, do you want to do the same old junk you've been doing for 18 or 20-something years, or do you want to step into the real world of business and handle your business like you're supposed to handle it?"

Smith does give good advice to athletes to avoid questionable past associates. However, his motivation is purely self-serving for monetary gain reasons. Sadly, not because those things "we cannot do no more" might be, like, unlawful and possibly hurt others.

 

[Tunescribe]

Is there a possibility that he's either innocent or much less involved than people think right now? Sure there is. Not a huge possibility, but not entirely negligible.

So the question comes down to this. Which is worse: (1) You suspend him and take him away from his livelihood but it turns out you were hasty. (2) You don't suspend him and it turns out he's guilty as dirt.

My view? 1 is worse. There will always be time to drop the hammer on him hard if number 2 turns out to be the case. Just too many instances of rushes to judgment in our nation's recent history for me to view the sin of number 2 as worse than the sin of number 1. It's also not the kind of situation where letting him play creates an ongoing danger to any other people or animals. (So, it's not like a teacher accused of doing bad things, where you have the decision to make that allowing him to continue to teach while the charges are pending could put others in harm's way.)

Now, don't get me wrong, I think he's guilty. But I'm honest enough to admit it's just a hunch at this point. At the end of the day, grand jury testimony is not public, and I really don't know what the evidence is. If in a couple of months it turns out that there is solid evidence more than hearsay, then yeah, nail him, even without a conviction. But right now, just based on an indictment? Not enough for me yet.

I'm also not really moved by the 95 percent number that gets misleadingly thrown around in the press. Yes, most federal indictments result in convictions, but that's only because most federal indictments -- probaby the vast vast majority -- are for easy to prove crimes where the guy is poor and busted dead to rights. Drug possession with intent to distribute and illegal rentry into the country after deportation occuply the vast majority of every federal court's criminal docket. When you start talking about less frequently indicted federal crimes -- mail and wire fraud; securities violations; the statute under which Vick is indicted; civil rights violations -- the numbers are not 95 percent. Also, most federal indictments lead to pleas. This one will likely not. The rate for non-drug cases that actually get tried is nothing like the numbers in the press.

It's kind of like the debate about whether it's better to have a legal system that occasionally allows an guilty man to go free or one that occasionally allows an innocent man to go to jail.

You forgot option 3, which is to suspend him with pay. The best of all worlds would be for Vick to suspend himself without pay and make a statement to the world that he's out to clear his name. But he won't do that, BECAUSE THE SCUMBAG IS GUILTY!

 

[Patsfanin Philly]

You forgot option 3, which is to suspend him with pay. The best of all worlds would be for Vick to suspend himself without pay and make a statement to the world that he's out to clear his name. But he won't do that, BECAUSE THE SCUMBAG IS GUILTY!

The only problem with option #3 is that Vick would have to agree to it as a result of the T. Owens arbitration several years ago and the resulting NFLPA agreement. you can't simply suspend a guy with pay or simply tell him to stay home and pay him (not a bad gig if you can get it).
My gut tells me that Mr. Vick doesn't grasp the gravity of the situation and that this will play out like the Imus situation. When the sponsors throw their weight around and threaten to cancel, then things will happen , whether a voluntary leave of absence/paid suspension or stepping away to 'avoid being a distraction to the team."
Just my $0.02,

 

[Tunescribe]

My gut tells me that Mr. Vick doesn't grasp the gravity of the situation ...

Ya think? The guy (A). to begin with did not grow up in the real world of action/consequence, (B). obviously lacks sufficient social/moral conscience to understand what he did was wrong, and (C). probably is surrounded by handlers and supporters giving him a false sense of security.

He also might believe he can buy himself out of whatever trouble he's in.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Re: Stupd Emmitt Smith defending Vick. STUPID STUPID STUPID!

http://cbs.sportsline.com/nfl/story/10264644/rss

That's right Emmitt, you moron. Make a public statement to the national media without reading the indictment. Stupid idiot. Why was this even reported???

Smith: Feds squeezing Vick in order to catch bigger offenders

July 21, 2007
CBS SportsLine.com wire reports
SOUTH BEND, Ind. -- Emmitt Smith thinks federal investigators targeted Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick to get to others involved in an alleged dogfighting operation.
"He's the biggest fish in the whole doggone pond right now so they're putting the squeeze on him to get to everyone else," Smith said Saturday.
Vick and three associates are accused of competitive dogfighting, procuring and training pit bulls for fighting, and conducting the enterprise across state lines. Vick is scheduled to be arraigned Thursday in federal court in Richmond, Va.
Smith, who was enshrined in the College Football Hall of Fame on Saturday along with 19 others, was asked what he thought about the Vick situation. He said he believes federal investigators are trying to pressure Vick to turn on the others.
"Now, granted he might have been to a dogfight a time or two, maybe five times, maybe 20 times, may have bet some money, but he's not the one you're after. He's not the one you're after, he's just the one whose going to take the fall -- publicly."
But Smith also placed some blame on Vick, saying athletes need to realize they have to break ties with some people from their past "because where we're going, it's not for everybody to come with us. You have to learn to cut some of those guys loose. Because the things that they do, we cannot do no more."
Smith, the NFL's career leading rusher, said young athletes have to make decisions about who they associate with because it could harm their careers.
"From an athletic standpoint, from an endorsement standpoint, from an investment standpoint, from a business standpoint, those doors are opening. The question is now, do you want to do the same old junk you've been doing for 18 or 20-something years, or do you want to step into the real world of business and handle your business like you're supposed to handle it?"

I'm really disappointed in Emmet. He could run and he can dance, but he's not nearly as bright as I thought he was. It doesn't do any good to keep repeating the message that when you ascend to the ranks of NFL millionaire it's time to cut ties with the guys you grew up with who are likely headed down the road your momma fought to keep you from taking. That's one of the reasons the cycle of poverty is so tough to break in this age of excess. Especially when you so matter of factly dismiss what Vick has been accused of as an attempt to just squeeze the poor high profile brother who wasn't smart enough or selfish enough to. The problem here isn't poor choice of friends, old or new, it's financing and masterminding a criminal enterprise and facilitating his friends natural inclination to do the same with your financial backing. If anything, Vick has dragged his old friends even further down.

This attitude among high profile black athletes just reinforces the liklihood that the coming generations won't learn a damn thing unless some government entity or employer takes it upon themselves to teach them a life lesson the hard way. Take a freakin' stand and be a leader Emmit. Dont tell them to turn their backs on their past, don't absolve all their shortcomings as the hood inevitable pulling them down, tell them to do something with their millions to raise others up out of it with them. And you don't do that by underwriting criminal endeavors or giving them free rein to crash on one of your properties while they peddle drugs or behaving like a millionaire gangsta.

When Pedro's brother Ramon retired from MLB, rather than go home and count his millions under a mango tree he started a construction business in So. Florida that not only makes him more money but allows him to help fellow Dominicans and members of his own extended family who want to come here and learn a skill and work in a trade that they can eventually take home with them to help improve their own little nation. Pedro uses his own money to build schools and hospitals and chuches in his native country and funds programs to help get the next generation educated and keep them off the streets. Vick has the means to do that more than ten fold for the young people of Bad Newz VA, but he'd rather spread herpes and smoke dope and hang with his homies and be some closet gangsta dog fighter.

And they wonder why he could never master reading defenses. It's not so much he's stupid as he's ignorant. He never really wanted to because too many told him he didn't need to - he just needed to be Mike. So perhaps those who came before him like Emmit bear some of the blame for that ignorance being allowed to perpetuate unabated because they have been so reluctant to be critical because deep down inside they are afraid that if they are too critical of the high profile brother they'll loose cred in their own old neighborhoods or among the young hip hop generation.

Poor Michael Vick has been alternately coddled and misled by one group of enablers after another, black and white, since the first day picked up a football. Shame on all of them. You created a monster whose now made you all look like chumps, and you still can't quite bear to admit it. It must be somebody else's fault or poor judgement at worst.

We really need that makes me want to puke icon.

 

[fair catch fryar]

Re: Stupd Emmitt Smith defending Vick. STUPID STUPID STUPID!

I'm really disappointed in Emmet. He could run and he can dance, but he's not nearly as bright as I thought he was. It doesn't do any good to keep repeating the message that when you ascend to the ranks of NFL millionaire it's time to cut ties with the guys you grew up with who are likely headed down the road your momma fought to keep you from taking. That's one of the reasons the cycle of poverty is so tough to break in this age of excess. Especially when you so matter of factly dismiss what Vick has been accused of as an attempt to just squeeze the poor high profile brother who wasn't smart enough or selfish enough to. The problem here isn't poor choice of friends, old or new, it's financing and masterminding a criminal enterprise and facilitating his friends natural inclination to do the same with your financial backing. If anything, Vick has dragged his old friends even further down.

This attitude among high profile black athletes just reinforces the liklihood that the coming generations won't learn a damn thing unless some government entity or employer takes it upon themselves to teach them a life lesson the hard way. Take a freakin' stand and be a leader Emmit. Dont tell them to turn their backs on their past, don't absolve all their shortcomings as the hood inevitable pulling them down, tell them to do something with their millions to raise others up out of it with them. And you don't do that by underwriting criminal endeavors or giving them free rein to crash on one of your properties while they peddle drugs or behaving like a millionaire gangsta.

When Pedro's brother Ramon retired from MLB, rather than go home and count his millions under a mango tree he started a construction business in So. Florida that not only makes him more money but allows him to help fellow Dominicans and members of his own extended family who want to come here and learn a skill and work in a trade that they can eventually take home with them to help improve their own little nation. Pedro uses his own money to build schools and hospitals and chuches in his native country and funds programs to help get the next generation educated and keep them off the streets. Vick has the means to do that more than ten fold for the young people of Bad Newz VA, but he'd rather spread herpes and smoke dope and hang with his homies and be some closet gangsta dog fighter.

And they wonder why he could never master reading defenses. It's not so much he's stupid as he's ignorant. He never really wanted to because too many told him he didn't need to - he just needed to be Mike. So perhaps those who came before him like Emmit bear some of the blame for that ignorance being allowed to perpetuate unabated because they have been so reluctant to be critical because deep down inside they are afraid that if they are too critical of the high profile brother they'll loose cred in their own old neighborhoods or among the young hip hop generation.

Poor Michael Vick has been alternately coddled and misled by one group of enablers after another, black and white, since the first day picked up a football. Shame on all of them. You created a monster whose now made you all look like chumps, and you still can't quite bear to admit it. It must be somebody else's fault or poor judgement at worst.

We really need that makes me want to puke icon.[/QUOTE/] Well put!

 

[PatsFaninAZ]

Re: Stupd Emmitt Smith defending Vick. STUPID STUPID STUPID!

I'm really disappointed in Emmet.

Not being smart is a forgivable to me. In fact, I think we need to give our limited friends extra room and generosity.

What's not forgivable is being limited and not knowing it, and in fact, spouting off as though you are smart when you are not.

Maybe Mr. Smith got trapped in a situation where he was too dumb not to give a comment. Sometimes it happens. Reporters take advantage of dumb athletes all the time. (See Hardaway, Tim.) But this doesn't sound like that. What a weenie.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

Regardless of whether Mo is 100% accurate on Emmitt's take ( I think he is more likely right than wrong on that), Mo is also referring to the larger picture scenario that many of us think of, but few of us come out and mention, in this ultra politically correct world....a good post which will probably generate some heat.

The truth always hurts.

Edit: I misread the prior post and thought PatsinAZ was disputing what Mo said about Emmitt, now I see he wasn't. Don't quite know why I read it different the first time......anyway the truth always hurts and it is one thing that people tend to shy away from when it comes to these situations, which is basically what Emmitt seems to be doing. I haven't seen his comments myself.

 

[Patsfanin Philly]

Ya think? The guy (A). to begin with did not grow up in the real world of action/consequence, (B). obviously lacks sufficient social/moral conscience to understand what he did was wrong, and (C). probably is surrounded by handlers and supporters giving him a false sense of security.

He also might believe he can buy himself out of whatever trouble he's in.

Bingo, we have bingo. What do they say about power corrupting and absolute power corrupting absolutely? He's got an owner who pushes Vick around in his wheelchair (who's in charge??) and he's (Vick) in for a potentially very rude awakening...should he be convicted.