Is McDaniels The BB reincarnate?

[Ring 6]

I think if supports the opinion that he was surronded by better talent in Denver like, he hasn't had anything close to Brandon Marshal in Chicago, also as previously mentioned, Chicago's OLINE can't protect him at all, part of that is the idiotic scheme Martz implemented.

1) He didnt win in Denver either
2) If its only about weapons why is #1?
3) Martz system has worked very well with many QBs

Maybe someday he will win, but I've never been one to consider losing while placing the blame on someone else to be anywhere in the vicinity of winning.

 

[Ring 6]

In a vacuum.... maybe.

But it goes on a list with:

- Trading away Peyton Hillis to get a QB who hasn't seen the field for the Broncos yet.
- Trading away a bonafide #1 WR for a 2nd.
- Drafting Tim Tebow in the 1st round.
- Trading up for Alphonso Smith

And let's not forget that McDaniels was instrumental in the Patriots' drafting both Chad Jackson and Laurence Maroney.

How is Hillis looking now?
Marshall blasted his way out of town and admits it wasn't McD.
Well, Tebow has them in the playoffs for the first time in 6 years, after taking them over at 1-4. Its way too early to judge that draft choice, and without knowing what McDaniels had planned as a use for him, we may never know.

Oh, here we go again. Urban Meyer was the key to Jackson, and MCDaniel passed along a recommendation from his brother that was added to the predraft evaluation about Maroney. Lets not try to make it like McD druggede BB and made the pick himself.

 

[IcyPatriot]

With threads like this the game cannot come soon enough ... good grief. :bricks:

 

[drew4008]

I will agree whole-heartedly with AndyJohnson on this one. Cutler was and is terrible, and he was even more terrible for that franchise with the way he was acting. It took balls for Josh to do what he did there and it was definitely the right move.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

In a vacuum.... maybe.

But it goes on a list with:

- Trading away Peyton Hillis to get a QB who hasn't seen the field for the Broncos yet.
- Trading away a bonafide #1 WR for a 2nd.
- Drafting Tim Tebow in the 1st round.
- Trading up for Alphonso Smith

Brandon Marshall had already decided he didn't want to be there. Perhaps you can blame him for not managing to get Marshall to buy in, but I find it hard to blame McDaniels for trading Marshall away when it was clear he was a lockerroom cancer.

 

[tobias funke]

- Jay Cutler went 10-5 in 2010 while being sacked a league-leading 52 times. His team lost in the NFC championship game. Are we really going to say he doesn't have what it takes to be a 'winner'? Are you only a winner if you go to the Super Bowl? What's the criteria?

- 2008 Denver Broncos Roster - NFL - ESPN Here's the 2008 Broncos roster. Which players are we calling a part of the "plethora of weapons"? Let's keep in mind that Mike Shanahan was fired at the end of the season.

- Lists of NFL starting quarterbacks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Here's the list of current NFL starting QBs. A few of them are obviously injury replacements, so we can assume the original starter for the purposes of the discussion. How many of these QBs should be considered "better" than Cutler?

 

[tobias funke]

Well, Tebow has them in the playoffs for the first time in 6 years, after taking them over at 1-4. Its way too early to judge that draft choice, and without knowing what McDaniels had planned as a use for him, we may never know.

Tim Tebow can't throw a football. Let's not delude ourselves. He's "led" his team to 14 points over the past two games heading into the playoffs.

Is he a better QB than Cutler?

 

[Ring 6]

- Jay Cutler went 10-5 in 2010 while being sacked a league-leading 52 times. His team lost in the NFC championship game. Are we really going to say he doesn't have what it takes to be a 'winner'? Are you only a winner if you go to the Super Bowl? What's the criteria?

That was the only winning season of his career.
It came with a defense ranked 4th in points and 9th in yards and an offense ranked 21st in points and 30th in yards.
The defense allowed 17 points of less 9 times and lost 3 of those games.

No, if those are the circumstances surrounding a QBs only winning season, I certainly wouldn't say he meets my criteria of a winner.

- 2008 Denver Broncos Roster - NFL - ESPN Here's the 2008 Broncos roster. Which players are we calling a part of the "plethora of weapons"? Let's keep in mind that Mike Shanahan was fired at the end of the season.

Kidding right?
Brandon Marshall
Eddie Royal
Tony Schefter
Daniel Graham
Brandon stokely
Peyton Hillis
Selwyn Young (both average 5 ypc)

That team was loaded with weapons.

- Lists of NFL starting quarterbacks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Here's the list of current NFL starting QBs. A few of them are obviously injury replacements, so we can assume the original starter for the purposes of the discussion. How many of these QBs should be considered "better" than Cutler?

Not sure what you are getting here. You really can only include established QBs to compare to other established QBs because you do not know what the young ones will be yet.
There are many established QBs I would rate ahead of Cutler.
Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Manning, Manning, Rivers, Rothlisberger, Ryan, Hasselbeck (aside from age), Schaub, Romo, Vick, Stafford would all go ahead of him.
Flacco, Palmer would be in the same group as him.
Grossman, Fitzpatrick, Smith, Cassell/Orton would be behind.
Jets, Fins, Bengals, Browns, Jags, Brocnos, Vikings, Panthers, Bucs, Rams, Seahawks, Cards do not have established QBs.
That would put him in a group from 14-16 out of 20 established QBs, with 12 teams not having an established QB that would be a reasonable comparison.

Do you disagree?

 

[Ring 6]

Tim Tebow can't throw a football. Let's not delude ourselves. He's "led" his team to 14 points over the past two games heading into the playoffs.

Is he a better QB than Cutler?

Tebow is not better than any QB right now, but it is clearly too early to judge him.
The point is that a team that hadn't made the playoffs in 6 years (3 of those with cutler at QB) was 1-4, inserted him into the lineup and is in the playoffs, yet you are trashing the draft choice. Its too early to judge, but you can't ignore he has been the impetus to the most success the team has had in years.
By the way, your original argument was about McDaniels personell decisions, so taking the path you just did would lead to crediting the defense and OL, much of which was assembled by McDaniels.

 

[tobias funke]

There are many established QBs I would rate ahead of Cutler.
Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Manning, Manning, Rivers, Rothlisberger, Ryan, Hasselbeck (aside from age), Schaub, Romo, Vick, Stafford would all go ahead of him.
Flacco, Palmer would be in the same group as him.
Grossman, Fitzpatrick, Smith, Cassell/Orton would be behind.
Jets, Fins, Bengals, Browns, Jags, Brocnos, Vikings, Panthers, Bucs, Rams, Seahawks, Cards do not have established QBs.
That would put him in a group from 14-16 out of 20 established QBs, with 12 teams not having an established QB that would be a reasonable comparison.

My "original argument" is that I took issue with the statement that McDaniels was "right about Cutler".

And here you are listing the QBs McDaniels wanted ahead of Cutler as lesser players (Cassell, Orton).

It seems to me that as bad of a QB you think Cutler is, you still consider him an average league starter. You also believe he had a "plethora of weapons" in Denver, and believe he no longer has said plethora now, which certainly doesn't make him any less of a quality player.

As far as I can tell, we agree that Denver doesn't have a QB on the roster as good as Cutler. So how exactly does that make their ex-HC "right" about him? That's the statement I took issue with, and no offense, but you haven't posted anything that could possibly change my mind.

Anyways, I noticed that this exact same discussion is going on in the other McDaniels thread, so I'm going to leave it at this: I don't think McDaniels has shown the ability to consistently evaluate talent or make intelligent personnel decisions. I don't think he should have been given final say in Denver, and I doubt I'm even close to alone in this assessment. He's an excellent offensive mind (completely reworking the Patriots offense between 2006 and 2007 to take advantage of Welker and Moss is evidence of that), and with more experience, could be ready to take over a team again one day as a head coach.

 

[supafly]

Is JMcD the BB reincarnate?

No...but then again, who is?

 

[DarrylS]

There may never be another BB, but have always thought that Josh was the heir apparent to him.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Belichick won Superbowl rings as a coordinator with the Giants.
Belichick took Cleveland to the playoffs before his owner left him hanging as a lame duck while moving to Baltimore.

Not completely similar situations. The only thing similar is a coach left and may come back to his old coach.

BB has said on numerous occasions that while in CLE, there are things that he would have done differently (press, dealing with the fans, ownership, etc.) but one thing he has never apologized for is how he built that CLE team from a pre-salary cap 3-13 doormat devoid of talent to a draft-built 11-5 team 3 yrs later that in 1994 had the NFL's #1 defense.

BB had little to no financial flexibility as Modell was heavily leveraged via his other investments, stadium issues, etc.

Check out the book, “Fumble,” written by Michael G. Poplar. You'll gain a better appreciation of what BB did and what little he had to work with in CLE.

When you combine a great coach, HoF QB and an owner with deep pockets, you get what we've had the last 10 years

 

[patsfan-1982]

BB is a great coach who is good at handleing the Media in a big market and is a pretty good GM but he also got lucky in comeing to a team with Great ownership a good core of defensive player and Drafting the GOAT at QB in the 6th round did not hurt,

Robert Kraft bulit this team Brady and BB took it to the next level, now can McDaniels fall into that type of situation i Dont know

 

[Rob0729]

Gonna have to agree to disagree.

He was playing behind a terrible O-line with mediocre receivers (outside of Forte) this season, and after a rough start, was making excellent plays and showing remarkable toughness. Anyone who watched the games he played in could see that.

All you have to do is look at what happened to the Bears season once Cutler and Forte went down. The guy can play, period.

Your starting QB and one of the league's best RBs went down and you are saying it is proof that Cutler is good. I think it may have to do with the fact that Caleb Hanie is a bad back up who the Bears stupidly gambled on being a solid back up based on half a NFC Championship game where he was wildly inconsistent but did score two TDs.

I think Mark Sanchez is mediocre, But if he went down week one and Mark Brunnell was the Jets starting QB, the Jets would have been lucky to have won 2 games this season. Does that mean Sanchez is a great QB.

Sorry, but I never thought Cutler was anything special when he was in Denver. He was always a guy who came up small when it counted. He played a huge role in giving the Chargers the division one year because he snatched defeat from the jaws of victory in the final minute of a head to head match up by throwing a costly pick in the red zone.

Culter was always a guy with a $100 million arm and a ten cent head. He is living off the reputation of the 2008 season where the Broncos were constantly down and he threw a lot to get over 4,500 yards. But even then, if you watched the season he made a lot of costly mistakes like the one I mentioned above.

 

[JoeSixPat]

The way BB left Parcells...somewhat failed. Went back with Parcells..saw some success. Then gained success on his own? Maybe future head coach of pats? But with another personal man.

You might be getting a little bit ahead of yourself, but there's no question that McDaniels, like any coach, has gotten better through his experiences.

For now, McDaniels' biggest attribute is that he's exceptionally familiar with Brady, the offense, and Belichick and hits the ground running.

Although I questioned his playcalling in 2007 but there's clearly no better candidate - by far - than McDaniels for this team at this time.

Bringing him back would be a tremendous boost to this team in my opinion. He'd probably also help in the development of Ryan Mallett.

 

[Ring 6]

My "original argument" is that I took issue with the statement that McDaniels was "right about Cutler".

And here you are listing the QBs McDaniels wanted ahead of Cutler as lesser players (Cassell, Orton).

It seems to me that as bad of a QB you think Cutler is, you still consider him an average league starter. You also believe he had a "plethora of weapons" in Denver, and believe he no longer has said plethora now, which certainly doesn't make him any less of a quality player.

As far as I can tell, we agree that Denver doesn't have a QB on the roster as good as Cutler. So how exactly does that make their ex-HC "right" about him? That's the statement I took issue with, and no offense, but you haven't posted anything that could possibly change my mind.

Anyways, I noticed that this exact same discussion is going on in the other McDaniels thread, so I'm going to leave it at this: I don't think McDaniels has shown the ability to consistently evaluate talent or make intelligent personnel decisions. I don't think he should have been given final say in Denver, and I doubt I'm even close to alone in this assessment. He's an excellent offensive mind (completely reworking the Patriots offense between 2006 and 2007 to take advantage of Welker and Moss is evidence of that), and with more experience, could be ready to take over a team again one day as a head coach.

McDaniels didnt choose Orton over Cutler. He got Orton plus a number of draft picks after Cutler's mouth and attitude shot its way out of town.
Being ranked 15-17 out of 20 is hardly proof of value. Just because the transactions that followed didn't produce a good NFL QB does not mean keeping Cutler would have been the right thing to do.
Are you really saying that after Cutlers immature antics, any coach or owner should have kept him around?
Orton has played as well or better than Cutler since the trade, so the fact that I put Cutler a little bit ahead doesn't mean trading a lousy attitude guy you were never going to win with and getting mulitple picks including 2 1s is wrong.
Cassell really should have been in the not yet established category, but I lumped the 2 together since they are on the same team.

Finally, no one is close to alone in the assessment that ANYONE stinks as a talent evaluator, because those making such criticisms have silly expectations, as evidenced by the common postings here that Bill Belichick can't evaluate talent. The best talent evaluator misses a lot. Isolating a few examples about a guy who spent a grand total of 2 years in authority (along with trying to call decisions like Cutler and Marshall where players were traded as much for attitude as talent in that) is far short of a compelling argument.