Is it possible Bill can save his job by benching Mac Jones and blaming the season on him?

[Wozzy]

Mac is the single biggest reason this team has two wins. That's not an excuse.

BB drafted Mac. I'm not sure that's a fireable offense.

Draft another one... a much better one... and don't miss.

 

[upstater1]

Bills fans want McDermott fired and Belichick hired.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Damn the “QB isn’t everything” crowd is now the “QB is only thing” crowd. #TeamBill

 

[BennyBledsoe]

Given he drafted Mac? No.

 

[Boomer B]

If the team coalesces with Mac on the bench and the offense somehow looks more productive then I could see this leading to Bill keeping his job, but it depends on how we got here in the first place.

If Bill was forced by Kraft to set things up for Mac and hold Mac’s hand and give him the longest leash possible until it was clear he was just not good, then Kraft may privately be able to say “you were right Bill, the kid just is not good enough”.

Conversely if it was Bill’s plan to do all of the above then Mac being terrible is really just his fault so he shouldn’t get any kind of pass.

People will say “Bill drafted him so it’s his fault” - he was a mid 1st rounder and the fifth QB, **** happens. If Bill was out on him after 2 years but Kraft wouldn’t let him move on and Bill was proven correct then I can sort of see the argument for letting Bill stick around and close the book on things.

A lot of it probably rests on if things just look like more of the same after the bye, or if the team has a marked change after dumping Mac.

What about how bad our WR’s are, how bad the line has looked much of the season, how bad special teams has looked, Patricia/Judge, the horrible drafts, ….

This isn’t all about Mac.

 

[NFL Mystique]

Mac is the single biggest reason this team has two wins. That's not an excuse.

BB drafted Mac. I'm not sure that's a fireable offense.

Draft another one... a much better one... and don't miss.

I don't think Mac is this bad though.

Is he a top tier QB? No.

But I think most QB's would have been messed up having a DC as OC and no legit WR's.

If prime Brady/current Mahomes were on this team, they don't make the postseason imo.

 

[BennyBledsoe]

Given he drafted Mac? No.

 

[Jlaff]

Elliot wasn't open. Being open after the QB has a player coming down on him is not open. I posted the screen shot. When Jones had to get the ball out, Elliot had his back to the ball and hadn't made his cut yet. That isn't open.

Here is the screen shot again. Mac's is ready to throw, the defender is almost on him. Zeke is not looking back for the ball. Therefore, he isn't open.

I think your problem is you don't know how to watch film.




And as for the one O'Brien was pissed about, it is probably one of the ones where someone is legitimately open and Mac didn't throw to him. Evan Lazar pointed out three of those plays in this game.

**** me, I'm glad @Ring 6 took you to task for the ******** you're trying to sell on this play.

JJSS was wide open, Gesicki (?) caught the linebacker flat footed on the seam and Reagor is about to be available for at least a difficult tight throw 10 yards down field from Mac for a ball that could be thrown away from the defender.

Here's where the ball should be out. He doesn't even need to take a real hit on the throw, the defender just caught his foot.



And here's a split second later when JJSS turns his head, which would have been plenty of time before the ball got there. NFL receivers, even JJSS, are capable of catching a ball that's thrown before they turn their head:



As Ring6 said, is Mac the only QB in the league we're not allowed to expect to know what routes his receivers are running?

To pretend Mac had nothing available is nonsense. Are we not allowed to expect Mac to make an "undeniable, starting caliber NFL QB" (to quote your assessment of Mac earlier this season) play once in awhile?

Here's the video of the play you posted earlier:

 

[lancerman]

**** me, I'm glad @Ring 6 took you to task for the ******** you're trying to sell on this play.

JJSS was wide open, Gesicki (?) caught the linebacker flat footed on the seam and Reagor is about to be available for at least a difficult tight throw 10 yards down field from Mac for a ball that could be thrown away from the defender.

Here's where the ball should be out. He doesn't even need to take a real hit on the throw, the defender just caught his foot.



And here's a split second later when JJSS turns his head, which would have been plenty of time before the ball got there. NFL receivers, even JJSS, are capable of catching a ball that's thrown before they turn their head:



As Ring6 said, is Mac the only QB in the league we're not allowed to expect to know what routes his receivers are running?

To pretend Mac had nothing available is nonsense. Are we not allowed to expect Mac to make an "undeniable, starting caliber NFL QB" play once in awhile?

Here's the video of the play you posted earlier:

This is just using still images to be misleading. You can start the video and stop it before it hits two seconds and the rusher is literally a foot in front of Mac. Most QB's aren't making that throw and acting like we should expect that from most guys is ridiculous. Mahomes and Rodgers for instance are bailing on the pocket as soon as they see that guy break through. Manning takes that same sack.

That was one of the more blatant examples of the line completely collapsing and blowing up a play. Brady at his peak "sometimes" will make that throw. But this idea that QB's are consistently expected to thrive in thats situation is ridiculous. The fault in the play was the line completely broke down.

If that's the example you need to use, it's not a particularly compelling one and is actually one of the handful of plays in the game where no reasonable analyst is blaming the QB. The line completely folded before the play developed and the rusher was already in his face. Most QB's either take the sack or bail.

I mean just numbers wise, the average time to release in the NFL is longer than the time it took for Mac to get touched by the defender.

This is what people mean when they say a lot of the critcism on Mac is a reach and ultimately unfair. You can't expect a QB to succeed when those are the type of plays that people are trying to act like were on him. Like the obvious play to complain about Mac is clearly the interception. That you can't blame on anyone else. But this is just a giant reach to place more blame on him.

 

[lancerman]

Damn the “QB isn’t everything” crowd is now the “QB is only thing” crowd. #TeamBill

It's a conveniance thing.

Brady leaves the Patriots. "The QB isn't everything. The system will prevail"

The Patriots as a whole suck. "The QB is everything, it's holding the system back"

Easier for some of the homers to cope with than accepting the depths of the issues on the team

 

[Jlaff]

This is just using still images to be misleading. You can start the video and stop it before it hits two seconds and the rusher is literally a foot in front of Mac. Most QB's aren't making that throw and acting like we should expect that from most guys is ridiculous. Mahomes and Rodgers for instance are bailing on the pocket as soon as they see that guy break through. Manning takes that same sack.

That was one of the more blatant examples of the line completely collapsing and blowing up a play. Brady at his peak "sometimes" will make that throw. But this idea that QB's are consistently expected to thrive in thats situation is ridiculous. The fault in the play was the line completely broke down.

If that's the example you need to use, it's not a particularly compelling one and is actually one of the handful of plays in the game where no reasonable analyst is blaming the QB. The line completely folded before the play developed and the rusher was already in his face. Most QB's either take the sack or bail.

I mean just numbers wise, the average time to release in the NFL is longer than the time it took for Mac to get touched by the defender.

This is what people mean when they say a lot of the critcism on Mac is a reach and ultimately unfair. You can't expect a QB to succeed when those are the type of plays that people are trying to act like were on him.

Nobody said it would have been an easy play. I certainly didn't say that. That's why I asked (paraphrasing) if it was too much to ask for Mac to go out and do something impressive for once.

You can start the video and stop it before it hits two seconds and the rusher is literally a foot in front of Mac.

The video doesn't start at the snap. At 0 seconds into the video Mac is already well into his drop. And he's still only about to be touched by the 2 second mark in the video.





Rob's premise was an impossible play. The reality is Mac was put into a difficult situation where he was forced to make a quick decision and failed again. NFL QBs make throws knowing they'll get hit. Mac chose not to.

This is just using still images to be misleading.

As far as still images to mislead, I'm countering a single still image with multiple still images but actually adding the video to the same post. Rob posted one picture after posting the video earlier and essentially went with "See? Not possible".

If that's the example you need to use, it's not a particularly compelling one

I didn't choose or "need" to use this play as an example, I responded to this play being used as a defence of Mac.

 

[Ross12]

What about how bad our WR’s are, how bad the line has looked much of the season, how bad special teams has looked, Patricia/Judge, the horrible drafts, ….

This isn’t all about Mac.

The point being (at least a very simplified version of the point) that if the team shows a lot of improvement after Mac is benched then there is a case that it actually is all about him, or at least mostly about him. If that happens, then it’s a question of why we set everything up for a guy who was the main problem in the first place. The answer to that question is something only Bill and Kraft know, and it could lead to Bill being absolved of some responsibility. All theoretical at this point though.

 

[RIpats88]

Maybe I am misreading posts, but I don't see anyone defending the poor guy.

For some reason there's this line in the sand that's been drawn on this board where it's either Mac is 100% of the problem or you must be defending him.

Reality is this team would be better than 2-8 with competent QB play. But at the same time the roster is garbage

What about how bad our WR’s are, how bad the line has looked much of the season, how bad special teams has looked, Patricia/Judge, the horrible drafts, ….

This isn’t all about Mac.

Shhh. No blame can be placed on Bill!

This is a Superbowl roster that is a QB away! Maybe the pats are a .500 team with better play. But that's not the flex most posters defending bill seem to think it is.

Even when the media thought Mac would be decent we heard how the receiver core was worst in the NFL and the OL was a mess.

Giardi got ran through the ringers for saying "stink stank stunk" about our receivers. The consensus was a 6-7 win season given strength of a schedule and our overall lack of talent.

Would we be 2-8 bad with better QB play? Probably not. But continuing to field average rosters going sub .500 for years on end isn't what we should be rooting for and defending...

The 2022 draft looks like a total bust, Patricia/judge were a disaster, juju over Meyers, refusing to entertain Hopkins deal because of "money". But all is well because of we had better play we would beat a few garbage teams and be .500 at best

 

[Steve102]

Reality is this team would be better than 2-8 with competent QB play. But at the same time the roster is garbage

Yeah, I will cosign this opinion.

 

[Rob0729]

**** me, I'm glad @Ring 6 took you to task for the ******** you're trying to sell on this play.

JJSS was wide open, Gesicki (?) caught the linebacker flat footed on the seam and Reagor is about to be available for at least a difficult tight throw 10 yards down field from Mac for a ball that could be thrown away from the defender.

Here's where the ball should be out. He doesn't even need to take a real hit on the throw, the defender just caught his foot.



And here's a split second later when JJSS turns his head, which would have been plenty of time before the ball got there. NFL receivers, even JJSS, are capable of catching a ball that's thrown before they turn their head:



As Ring6 said, is Mac the only QB in the league we're not allowed to expect to know what routes his receivers are running?

To pretend Mac had nothing available is nonsense. Are we not allowed to expect Mac to make an "undeniable, starting caliber NFL QB" (to quote your assessment of Mac earlier this season) play once in awhile?

Here's the video of the play you posted earlier:

First of all, Ring6 and I argued about Zeke Elliot being open or not, not JuJu Smith-Schuster. Funny how nowhere in your post did you address whether Zeke was open.

Second, when a defender unblocked is right on top of you is a difficult to impossible throw. Where you took the screenshot, Mac only could have released the ball with a back foot off balance throw because he couldn't step into the ball. And you would have killed him for that if he didn't make the completion.

Third, you are doing exactly what I said before. You are taking footage AFTER the window to throw is closed to show that people are open. A receiver getting open after the window is closed is not open. I showed the still frame at the point Mac would have had to get rid of the ball. JuJu wasn't open at that point and the over the top defender was looking at the ball and in the area. Yes, Mac might have been able to make the throw, but it wasn't like he was open. And Gesicki wasn't open at that point either.

Fourth, whether Mac could make the throw or not, that play was on the offensive line. The defender got through virtually unblocked. Brady has taken plenty of sacks in that situation. Could Mac have bailed out the o-line? Maybe. But this isn't a case of the offensive line not being an issue and just can't be "100% perfect on every play" as Ring6 suggests. This is a case of the offensive line causing a sack with piss poor blocking.

 

[Rob0729]

The point being (at least a very simplified version of the point) that if the team shows a lot of improvement after Mac is benched then there is a case that it actually is all about him, or at least mostly about him. If that happens, then it’s a question of why we set everything up for a guy who was the main problem in the first place. The answer to that question is something only Bill and Kraft know, and it could lead to Bill being absolved of some responsibility. All theoretical at this point though.

Well it depends on why they got marketedly better. If it is because O'Brien commits to the run and only has Zappe throw in ideal situations and over manages him, I don't know if that means it is all on Mac. If they run the same offense and the o-line still blocks the way they have for most of the season and the receivers run the same routes, it is mostly on Mac.

Mac was definitely a big part of the problem at least from the Cowboys game on. But other than a couple of games, the o-line hasn't been able to block for crap, Stevenson has been awful except for the last two games, and we have seen footage of the crap routes and drops by receivers. To put it all on Mac is insane. Mac should be benched for his play of late, but so should most of the offense.

One thing that will help Zappe or whoever is starting after the bye though is that the o-line should be healthy in two weeks assuming Brown isn't too injured. And with Stevenson starting to play like he did last year, the heat will be off the QB and the Pats can be that power run team they wanted to be from the start of the season.

 

[Hyped]

All roads lead back to Belichick. No amount of playing the blame game will change that.

That is what Belichick would tell you himself.

 

[Rob0729]

All roads lead back to Belichick. No amount of playing the blame game will change that.

Ultimately the Pats are in the position they are in because of Belichick. He has been horrible at drafting players and developing them. He continues to shop in the bargain basement for free agencies. He still puts way too much resources in special teams and even then the special teams are crap. If he didn't believe in Mac, he didn't surround him with talent to minimize his liability nor did he bring in a veteran back up just in case Mac fell apart like he has.

I still think Belichick is the best coach of all time, but the game seems to have passed him bye.

 

[Ring 6]

It's a conveniance thing.

Brady leaves the Patriots. "The QB isn't everything. The system will prevail"

The Patriots as a whole suck. "The QB is everything, it's holding the system back"

Easier for some of the homers to cope with than accepting the depths of the issues on the team

The QB isn’t everything, good or bad. But the QB has the biggest impact of any player. Brady elevated his teams success with his play, 10 holds back the team with his play.

Try understanding every statement is not made in absolutes, in fact, almost none are. You will be less confused.

 

[Ring 6]

First of all, Ring6 and I argued about Zeke Elliot being open or not, not JuJu Smith-Schuster. Funny how nowhere in your post did you address whether Zeke was open.

Second, when a defender unblocked is right on top of you is a difficult to impossible throw. Where you took the screenshot, Mac only could have released the ball with a back foot off balance throw because he couldn't step into the ball. And you would have killed him for that if he didn't make the completion.

Third, you are doing exactly what I said before. You are taking footage AFTER the window to throw is closed to show that people are open. A receiver getting open after the window is closed is not open. I showed the still frame at the point Mac would have had to get rid of the ball. JuJu wasn't open at that point and the over the top defender was looking at the ball and in the area. Yes, Mac might have been able to make the throw, but it wasn't like he was open. And Gesicki wasn't open at that point either.

Fourth, whether Mac could make the throw or not, that play was on the offensive line. The defender got through virtually unblocked. Brady has taken plenty of sacks in that situation. Could Mac have bailed out the o-line? Maybe. But this isn't a case of the offensive line not being an issue and just can't be "100% perfect on every play" as Ring6 suggests. This is a case of the offensive line causing a sack with piss poor blocking.

Wrong I pointed out that juju was wide open.

He could have made the throw to Elliot before the danger of the guy laying in the ground that he tripped over.
He also could have moved in any direction other than directly into the defender laying in the ground.
He is supposed to make plays, not get excuses because everything wasn’t perfect.

Before any danger Elliot had 3+ yards of cushion on a defender playing inside leverage and was running an out. That’s an easy throw 99% of QBs make if they feel the rush, unless they read the coverage and know juju is WIDE open, in which case they slide away from the defender on the ground to buy the millisecond they need to hit juju.
10 literally does everything wrong and you are using his mistakes for excuses of why his mistakes aren’t mistakes.