Inside the most dysfunctional Pats season under BB

[venecol]

You just compared the winningest coach in the history of the NFL to a first round bust. It strains credibility to think you're drawing parallels to N'keal Harry and Bill Belichick. That's a stretch of biblical proportions.

Lol, I wasn't comparing Harry to BB and you know that. I was comparing the posters that didn't believe in Harry and asked you if they were *****ing. Well, were they just *****ing or as fans pointing out the obvious? Answer that question because if you think that fans that make observations about players a/o coaches based on their performances is simply *****ing, then there's no reason to continue our discussion.

 

[Steve102]

Lol, I wasn't comparing Harry to BB and you know that. I was comparing the posters that didn't believe in Harry and asked you if they were *****ing. Well, were they just *****ing or as fans pointing out the obvious? Answer that question because if you think that fans that make observations about players a/o coaches based on their performances is simply *****ing, then there's no reason to continue our discussion.

a/o?

 

[venecol]

a/o?

and / or

 

[Steve102]

and / or

Oh duh.

Because you don't just observe that he sucks, it's endless complaining. That's the difference. You just continue to beat the drum.

Re: Harry comparison. It's not like there's another choice. There were other wideouts, but there's no other HC. Regardless, yeah we probably are at an impasse. Bill is who he is, he's not liable to change his system in his 48th year in the league. You're not going to be happy until he's gone.

 

[203Pat]

Jeff Fisher? Really? That seems a bit of a stretch. What did Jeff Fisher ever do to deserve to be used as a comp for BB? I remember just last year how so many people (maybe you were not one of those people) thought BB did one of his best coaching jobs with a rookie QB and the lack of overall talent on the roster, yet still making the playoffs. So now after one year where they just missed the playoffs despite the disaster on offense, all of a sudden, he is Jeff Fisher. I understand the frustration, I just think it is a year too early. If this trend continues next year, I'll be more understanding of this viewpoint. (Still will never compare him to Jeff Fisher though ).

Bill has made it to less super bowls than Jeff Fisher if you remove Tom Brady.

 

[Steve102]

Bill has made it to less super bowls than Jeff Fisher if you remove Tom Brady.

Oh fer fuxsake.

 

[203Pat]

Oh fer fuxsake.

Lol I couldn't help it. Sometimes I just like to be a jerk.

 

[Steve102]

 

[venecol]

What's the model you want to follow?

Idk exactly but it has to include bringing in elite talent. Whenever the Pats brought in talent via trades or FAcy it worked out pretty good (Moss, Revis, Cooks, Gilly). They all performed above expectations regardless of the mixed outcome. The model where you bring in avg players and expect to coach them up doesn't work any more. The coaching has been suspect for 3 straight seasons now (I've been through examples so won't rehash it). We shouldn't be shy about trading picks to bring in elite talent. We should've done that during the '22 FAcy. I doubt that happens during the '23 FAcy.

 

[Calhoun44]

Lol, I wasn't comparing Harry to BB and you know that. I was comparing the posters that didn't believe in Harry and asked you if they were *****ing. Well, were they just *****ing or as fans pointing out the obvious? Answer that question because if you think that fans that make observations about players a/o coaches based on their performances is simply *****ing, then there's no reason to continue our discussion.

Posters that didn't believe in Harry were fine to have doubts and likewise with BB. The question that needs to be answered is who can replace either of those two in the roles to help the franchise get back on track in their respective roles with the team. Replacing a WR that barely started any games is way different then complaining about the architect to the greatest dynasty the NFL has ever seen. So, you need to understand why there is resistance to people who have no forgiveness for the one season that didn't take a step forward in the rebuild. I think everyone (that I have read here) relates to the idea that last year was not ideal (some use the word disaster and others say it was mediocre) and no one wants to see this (results-wise) from the team. Even myself, who I would put right near the top of the list as a BB supporter, thinks this year should be a "**** or get off the pot" year. I haven't seen anyone (other than the facetious/overstated 0-1000 post, maybe I missed others?) saying BB is untouchable, so I think the discussion is mostly revolving around if people think he should still be the HC or not. IMO, fortunately Kraft is sticking with BB for now. We will see how it all shakes out as 2023 unfolds.

 

[Calhoun44]

Bill has made it to less super bowls than Jeff Fisher if you remove Tom Brady.

IIRC, technically Bledsoe got them into the first SB by coming in to replace an injured Brady. But regardless, why would you remove the QB that BB groomed all those years?
In your opinion, who are the greatest coaches of all-time in the NFL?

 

[Calhoun44]

The coaching has been suspect for 3 straight seasons now

I thought last year (along with many people in the media and on this site) was one of BB's best coaching jobs with the talent he had available. Also, I really loved the Cam year where they pounded the **** out of other teams with the running game, it was brilliant and a FU to all the fantasy football players. But to be fair, I am kinda weird and I love that smashmouth running football style. The constant scoring, high powered offense is a bit on the boring side to me.

 

[203Pat]

IIRC, technically Bledsoe got them into the first SB by coming in to replace an injured Brady. But regardless, why would you remove the QB that BB groomed all those years?
In your opinion, who are the greatest coaches of all-time in the NFL?

I was basically just being an ass but Bill is easily the greatest coach in Patriots history. I appreciate what Bill has done but I believe we should have moved on this offseason. I just feel like he has lost his fastball. In the end of the day I am not pissed he's back or anything but I just feel like we are going to end up with more of the same and be around .500 again.

 

[venecol]

Oh duh.

Because you don't just observe that he sucks, it's endless complaining. That's the difference. You just continue to beat the drum.

I'm not complaining. I'm not saying Bill sucks. I'm pointing out the performance of the team across 3 years and backing it up with facts. I've laid out theories of why his performance has decreased and compared it to that of other older coaches. I've talked about generational divide and used examples and backed it up w/ what ex-Patriots have said.

You OTOH just want to blindly root for the team and....

 

[Steve102]

I'm not complaining. I'm not saying Bill sucks. I'm pointing out the performance of the team across 3 years and backing it up with facts. I've laid out theories of why his performance has decreased and compared it to that of other older coaches. I've talked about generational divide and used examples and backed it up w/ what ex-Patriots have said.

You OTOH just want to blindly root for the team and....

View attachment 49578

I give up man. You win. I am tired of talking about it.

 

[mike_usagisan]

Idk exactly but it has to include bringing in elite talent. Whenever the Pats brought in talent via trades or FAcy it worked out pretty good (Moss, Revis, Cooks, Gilly). They all performed above expectations regardless of the mixed outcome. The model where you bring in avg players and expect to coach them up doesn't work any more. The coaching has been suspect for 3 straight seasons now (I've been through examples so won't rehash it). We shouldn't be shy about trading picks to bring in elite talent. We should've done that during the '22 FAcy. I doubt that happens during the '23 FAcy.

Absolutely. Has anyone ever figured out what the conditions are for why the Pats do that sometimes versus not doing that others? I think maybe it has to do with buying low, when the talent has some knock against them. Is there anyone like that this free agency or ripe for a trade?

 

[venecol]

Posters that didn't believe in Harry were fine to have doubts and likewise with BB. The question that needs to be answered is who can replace either of those two in the roles to help the franchise get back on track in their respective roles with the team. Replacing a WR that barely started any games is way different then complaining about the architect to the greatest dynasty the NFL has ever seen. So, you need to understand why there is resistance to people who have no forgiveness for the one season that didn't take a step forward in the rebuild. I think everyone (that I have read here) relates to the idea that last year was not ideal (some use the word disaster and others say it was mediocre) and no one wants to see this (results-wise) from the team. Even myself, who I would put right near the top of the list as a BB supporter, thinks this year should be a "**** or get off the pot" year. I haven't seen anyone (other than the facetious/overstated 0-1000 post, maybe I missed others?) saying BB is untouchable, so I think the discussion is mostly revolving around if people think he should still be the HC or not. IMO, fortunately Kraft is sticking with BB for now. We will see how it all shakes out as 2023 unfolds.

Yea, I've never said BB should be fired this season. Never. That would be dumb since it obviously was never going to happen. I'm countering the belief by many here, that just consider this season a hiccup, and that Bill will just dust off the OC's chair and we're on our merry way to wonderland. This team has a lot of issues that need fixing. This is simply a philosophical discussion about how we should move forward to become contenders again. Imo, the sooner we move on from BB as HC/GM, the sooner we can tackle those challenges.

I find it amusing how many posters want to see Brady retire despite him continuing to play well but have no issues w/ having a 71 yo coach continue until he wishes despite his recent mediocre record.

 

[venecol]

Absolutely. Has anyone ever figured out what the conditions are for why the Pats do that sometimes versus not doing that others? I think maybe it has to do with buying low, when the talent has some knock against them. Is there anyone like that this free agency or ripe for a trade?

Idk. In most of those cases the team had a solid base and just needed a key piece or so to get beyond the hump. Sometimes it worked (Revis, Gilly), other times it didn't (Moss, Cooks) but it certainly wasn't because of those guys. Unfortunately this team has a lot more needs than just an elite guy but you have to start somewhere.

 

[mike_usagisan]

Idk. In most of those cases the team had a solid base and just needed a key piece or so to get beyond the hump. Sometimes it worked (Revis, Gilly), other times it didn't (Moss, Cooks) but it certainly wasn't because of those guys. Unfortunately this team has a lot more needs than just an elite guy but you have to start somewhere.

Yeah. It also feels like we don’t know what we really have on offense beyond a ****ty line and a great RB. I’m putting a lot of faith in BoB to talk about what we need to do to make over the offense in terms of scheme, plays and personnel.

 

[Calhoun44]

I was basically just being an ass but Bill is easily the greatest coach in Patriots history. I appreciate what Bill has done but I believe we should have moved on this offseason. I just feel like he has lost his fastball. In the end of the day I am not pissed he's back or anything but I just feel like we are going to end up with more of the same and be around .500 again.

That seems reasonable. My opinion is that it was a glitch, and we are ready to take the leap forward. I am an optimist, so take it with a grain of salt.