If you were Kraft and this season doesn’t improve, do you move on from Bill after this season?

[sb1]

There isnt anyone.

BB can still coach and the drafts have improved. Find a QB.

So you're now in the acceptance stage for the smurf. Great it's about time. Yes they will need to draft a QB fortunately next year's class is very deep so they might be in luck.

 

[Steve102]

I don't think you can objectively answer that question after a 35 point loss where the QB looked like Zach McMilfson. Everyone's answer right now, Monday morning should be yes, just purely based on emotion.

I do think that watching the Miami/Buffalo tilt at 1pm and then the gawd awful Pats game after makes it worse. It puts it in laser focus how electric those offenses are and how pedestrian the Pats offense is. They've added two offensive players to the roster via draft since 2019, in Stevenson and Mac, with the jury still out on this class, but Pop looks like a win. Free agency is not much better, with Hunter Henry looking better than average, JJSS and Zeke still getting an incomplete grade. The others who've come and gone are all meh at best. I think it's fair to say that Bill has lost his fastball offensively and has not surrounded himself with a staff who will push back on him and tell him he's eff'n nuts. So now we see a bunch of guys that Bill wants to coach when the rest of the league has moved on to more dynamic players on that side of the ball.

I think defensively, the Pats are good enough to compete with the top of the NFL. Or were, until yesterday, with Judon likely being gone for a while and who knows on Gonzalez, who has all the earmarks of an elite CB. Perhaps Keion White will step up and fill the role of Judon. I do have confidence in Bill to dial up something of a plan defensively that will mask the flaws of the unit as a whole with those guys being out. I do think he is still the premier mind on that side of the ball.

The problem is that this team keeps digging themselves a huge hole and playing from behind. They are not talented enough to come from a big deficit, and certainly are not explosive enough to put up 45 week in and week out. Or at all, right now.

I don't think Mac is as bad as he's shown, but he's a middle/bottom third level of QB in the league, and needs better pieces around him to help him succeed, as opposed to raising up the level of players that "other" QBs have done. Missing an open Parker on a crossing route showed me that the kid is what he is, and that's not very flippin' good. That's on Bill.

Bottom line, if the team continues to circle the bowl for the remainder of 2023, then yes, it's time for him to retire. If he manages another "We are on to New Orleans" this week, then I think he may be able to turn it around. He's got the rest of the season to figure it out.

 

[mike_usagisan]

Rico was talking about how BB supposedly mismanaged the Brady situation in 2019.

I know. I meant it for him, but quoted you. Sorry.

 

[archstanton543]

I do think that watching the Miami/Buffalo tilt at 1pm and then the gawd awful Pats game after makes it worse. It puts it in laser focus how electric those offenses are and how pedestrian the Pats offense is. They've added two offensive players to the roster via draft since 2019, in Stevenson and Mac, with the jury still out on this class, but Pop looks like a win. Free agency is not much better, with Hunter Henry looking better than average, JJSS and Zeke still getting an incomplete grade. The others who've come and gone are all meh at best. I think it's fair to say that Bill has lost his fastball offensively and has not surrounded himself with a staff who will push back on him and tell him he's eff'n nuts. So now we see a bunch of guys that Bill wants to coach when the rest of the league has moved on to more dynamic players on that side of the ball.

Pop's got speed which is a rarity on this roster but he only caught two balls yesterday.

 

[Steve102]

Pop's got speed which is a rarity on this roster but he only caught two balls yesterday.

I chalk that up to being a rookie, Mac sucking and overall them getting smoked. Most WRs in the league take two years to develop. I am willing to say wait and see.

 

[amfootball]

This is Kraft's team. He needs to start doing some major clean up.

 

[archstanton543]

This is Kraft's team. He needs to start doing some major clean up.

Jonathan Kraft, that is. The old man is just a figurehead enjoying married bliss with his new wife/caretaker.

 

[mike_usagisan]

I don't think Mac is as bad as he's shown, but he's a middle/bottom third level of QB in the league, and needs better pieces around him to help him succeed, as opposed to raising up the level of players that "other" QBs have done. Missing an open Parker on a crossing route showed me that the kid is what he is, and that's not very flippin' good. That's on Bill.

Here's a thing for me. Mac seemed good enough coming out of college and had a lot of Patriots traits. I think he just hasn't gotten any better (the floor/ceiling people were probably right about that). But they needed a quarterback and the draft seemed the best bet.

But we weren't going to be able to trade up to #1 to get Trevor Lawrence. It's now clear we lucked out not getting any of the other three drafted before Mac. There haven't been great options on the FA market. Who was the other QB Bill should have known to get instead of Mac? Maybe the Watson trade, but that was a big trade/contract and I'm not sure it's been worth it for the Browns.

I'm all for blaming Mac, as well as blaming Bill for not getting talent around Mac to elevate him. But for Mac to just not be very good, I'm not sure you put that on Bill when there weren't a lot of better options and you have to roll the dice when you draft a QB.

 

[amfootball]

Here's a thing for me. Mac seemed good enough coming out of college and had a lot of Patriots traits. I think he just hasn't gotten any better (the floor/ceiling people were probably right about that). But they needed a quarterback and the draft seemed the best bet.

But we weren't going to be able to trade up to #1 to get Trevor Lawrence. It's now clear we lucked out not getting any of the other three drafted before Mac. There haven't been great options on the FA market. Who was the other QB Bill should have known to get instead of Mac? Maybe the Watson trade, but that was a big trade/contract and I'm not sure it's been worth it for the Browns.

I'm all for blaming Mac, as well as blaming Bill for not getting talent around Mac to elevate him. But for Mac to just not be very good, I'm not sure you put that on Bill when there weren't a lot of better options and you have to roll the dice when you draft a QB.

The bigger issue IMO is Bill let the QB position atrophied by not drafting any QBs besides Stidham in the 4th after he traded Jimmy in 2017. It was like he forgot his starting QB was in his late 30s/early 40s and decided to stop investing in the position when prior to that he drafted a QB every other year.

 

[RicoG]

So you're now in the acceptance stage for the smurf. Great it's about time. Yes they will need to draft a QB fortunately next year's class is very deep so they might be in luck.

Yeah but finding a top shelf QB is like rolling the dice, see Winston, Mariotta, Wilson, Mayfield, Wentz. Draft picks taken 1 and 2. Could waste another 3 or 4 years to find out the QB is not the guy.

Pats could also bring a FA QB. I'd say Mayfield as I think he is a top 10 QB in the right scheme with top shelf receivers, but the Pats offensive talent is just not there.

 

[mike_usagisan]

The bigger issue IMO is Bill let the QB position atrophied by not drafting any QBs besides Stidham in the 4th after he traded Jimmy in 2017. It was like he forgot his starting QB was in his late 30s/early 40s and decided to stop investing in the position when prior to that he drafted a QB every other year.

Sure, I can see that point, but if he had drafted a high round QB, then it would have been why isn't he getting players to help with another run rather than for investing in post-Brady? Either way, we were going to have a QB post brady, and if it wasn't Mac, it was somebody else. I don't blame Bill for trying to make Mac be the guy. But as it's becoming clear he's not, the organization has to decide who is next.

 

[mike_usagisan]

Yeah but finding a top shelf QB is like rolling the dice, see Winston, Mariotta, Wilson, Mayfield, Wentz. Draft picks taken 1 and 2. Could waste another 3 or 4 years to find out the QB is not the guy.

Pats could also bring a FA QB. I'd say Mayfield as I think he is a top 10 QB in the right scheme with top shelf receivers, but the Pats offensive talent is just not there.

Yeah, I think we just have to keep drafting until we find out guy. That seems to be just how it works in the NFL.

 

[sb1]

Yeah but finding a top shelf QB is like rolling the dice, see Winston, Mariotta, Wilson, Mayfield, Wentz. Draft picks taken 1 and 2. Could waste another 3 or 4 years to find out the QB is not the guy.

Pats could also bring a FA QB. I'd say Mayfield as I think he is a top 10 QB in the right scheme with top shelf receivers, but the Pats offensive talent is just not there.

Yup for sure it's really hard to find one. This is QB purgatory and we're in it. We are now experiencing what other teams have gone through when Brady was here.

Impressed with what Mayfield is doing in Tampa although the OL is also much better. Would have been nice if this was all in place for the GOAT last year...

I'd also be ok with going with an elite WR in round 1 if we can get one and then look QB. Trade up. Be aggressive. No shame in doing it, other teams are and it's paying off for them.

 

[amfootball]

Sure, I can see that point, but if he had drafted a high round QB, then it would have been why isn't he getting players to help with another run rather than for investing in post-Brady?

I don't agree. Drafting Jimmy produced the best football out of Brady who thrived on people doubting him. You have to draft high with your QB at ages 40, 41, 42.

 

[mike_usagisan]

I don't agree. Drafting Jimmy produced the best football out of Brady who thrived on people doubting him. You have to draft high with your QB at ages 40, 41, 42.

Either way, we'd be post Brady now and with the team around any QB in 2020, we'd probably have moved on from them, too.

 

[Steve102]

Here's a thing for me. Mac seemed good enough coming out of college and had a lot of Patriots traits. I think he just hasn't gotten any better (the floor/ceiling people were probably right about that). But they needed a quarterback and the draft seemed the best bet.

But we weren't going to be able to trade up to #1 to get Trevor Lawrence. It's now clear we lucked out not getting any of the other three drafted before Mac. There haven't been great options on the FA market. Who was the other QB Bill should have known to get instead of Mac? Maybe the Watson trade, but that was a big trade/contract and I'm not sure it's been worth it for the Browns.

I'm all for blaming Mac, as well as blaming Bill for not getting talent around Mac to elevate him. But for Mac to just not be very good, I'm not sure you put that on Bill when there weren't a lot of better options and you have to roll the dice when you draft a QB.

I think he's was best available, so I have no problem where they got him. You're not going to go sign an elite QB via FA, you can trade for a guy at the Cousins/Goff/Stafford level, but that costs a lot of capital, as the Rams are finding out. I don't think they'll tank for Caleb Williams, so that's not even a consideration in my book. I think that they will have some level of success, but right now, .500 would be a huge turn around. Where's that put them, 12-18th in the draft? Quinn Ewers, JJ McCarthy? I am not really ready to start looking at that stuff yet. I believe that BoB will find a way to get the offense going, but they are never going to be top echelon with these players, and that's also on Bill.

 

[Rob0729]

Here's a thing for me. Mac seemed good enough coming out of college and had a lot of Patriots traits. I think he just hasn't gotten any better (the floor/ceiling people were probably right about that). But they needed a quarterback and the draft seemed the best bet.

But we weren't going to be able to trade up to #1 to get Trevor Lawrence. It's now clear we lucked out not getting any of the other three drafted before Mac. There haven't been great options on the FA market. Who was the other QB Bill should have known to get instead of Mac? Maybe the Watson trade, but that was a big trade/contract and I'm not sure it's been worth it for the Browns.

I'm all for blaming Mac, as well as blaming Bill for not getting talent around Mac to elevate him. But for Mac to just not be very good, I'm not sure you put that on Bill when there weren't a lot of better options and you have to roll the dice when you draft a QB.

Trevor Lawrence is proving he wasn't worth the #1. He is better than Mac Jones, but I don't know if he is going to be more than a top 10-15 type of QB.

I wouldn't have traded for Watson or Russell at the time for what they got and certainly wouldn't do it in hindsight. Both had over $100 million in guarantees ($230 million for Watson) and neither have been any good with their new teams.

 

[RicoG]

The bigger issue IMO is Bill let the QB position atrophied by not drafting any QBs besides Stidham in the 4th after he traded Jimmy in 2017. It was like he forgot his starting QB was in his late 30s/early 40s and decided to stop investing in the position when prior to that he drafted a QB every other year.

Nah. In the redo scenario:
- BB should have signed Brady to a long term deal to retirement, when Brady was still asking for that in 2018.
- BB should have gone all in and sign super stars who became available like Tyreek Hill, Devante Adams, Stefan Diggs.
- compete for a SB from 2019 to 2022 (in 2019 they started off as SB favorites but were clearly pretenders in the back half. BB could have traded for players to help the offence).
- Blow up the team in 2023. Tank for a couple years for high draft picks.
- BB retires after the 2024 season with the all time wins record. Leaving his predecessor with a team full of high draft picks and lots of cap space.
- Pats use a top 5 draft pick in 2025 to pick their next HOF QB.

 

[mike_usagisan]

I think he's was best available, so I have no problem where they got him. You're not going to go sign an elite QB via FA, you can trade for a guy at the Cousins/Goff/Stafford level, but that costs a lot of capital, as the Rams are finding out. I don't think they'll tank for Caleb Williams, so that's not even a consideration in my book. I think that they will have some level of success, but right now, .500 would be a huge turn around. Where's that put them, 12-18th in the draft? Quinn Ewers, JJ McCarthy? I am not really ready to start looking at that stuff yet. I believe that BoB will find a way to get the offense going, but they are never going to be top echelon with these players, and that's also on Bill.

Agreed. To me, they still have to spend next year on offense, whether it's for Mac or a 1st round QB. Go after Higgins and maybe Jeudy and maybe Evans and find a f-ing tackle. If that elevates Mac, great. if not, have a rookie QB that can step in when Mac craps the bed.

 

[203Pat]

Yeah but finding a top shelf QB is like rolling the dice, see Winston, Mariotta, Wilson, Mayfield, Wentz. Draft picks taken 1 and 2. Could waste another 3 or 4 years to find out the QB is not the guy.

Pats could also bring a FA QB. I'd say Mayfield as I think he is a top 10 QB in the right scheme with top shelf receivers, but the Pats offensive talent is just not there.

I would rather keep swinging and missing than trotting out a guy who just doesn't have it. At least with Winston, Maritotta, etc. there is physical talent to work with there. Mac just doesn't have that arm strength and was supposed to be a high floor/low ceiling guy but it looks like that floor was much lower than anyone thought.