PatsFans.com Menu
PatsFans.com - The Hub For New England Patriots Fans

If We Pick At 15


This year is the year to take a QB. Next year who is tell if the QBs are franchise players. You can’t pick any QB and hope they turn out to be good players. I will pass on mond, trask etc. I have a feeling they might turn out to be another Jarrett Stidham’s. The Patriots should pick one of Fields or Lance and develop them into great players. Kicking the cam down the road is how you go 10 years without a franchise QB.
 
"I know out of 32 guys, I'm not the 32 position rank.
Your punter had more yards than you threw for in a passing league. Eight TDs...no starter with less in the same number of games. If you're not #32...you're likely #31 and that's still a toss-up. Great locker room guy, probably the right guy to follow the GOAT as an intermezzo (although the Super Bowl win for Brady basically extended that craptastic meal for another year) from a media pressure standpoint, but that doesn't mean you're a good NFL QB anymore.

Honestly though, that's the biggest issue that remains for me - with Brady winning again - the whole heir pressure issue DID NOT get resolved with a bridge year - it just extended it - the worst possible outcome for the Patriots. The media can continue to trash anyone "not Brady" that tried to play QB for this team (especially a rook) with the grass is greener card for another entire year with the only possible solution a massive backslide for the Bucs and a huge run for the Patriots which even with the upgrades elsewhere is a tall order.
 
Your punter had more yards than you threw for in a passing league. Eight TDs...no starter with less in the same number of games. If you're not #32...you're likely #31 and that's still a toss-up. Great locker room guy, probably the right guy to follow the GOAT as an intermezzo (although the Super Bowl win for Brady basically extended that craptastic meal for another year) from a media pressure standpoint, but that doesn't mean you're a good NFL QB anymore.

Honestly though, that's the biggest issue that remains for me - with Brady winning again - the whole heir pressure issue DID NOT get resolved with a bridge year - it just extended it - the worst possible outcome for the Patriots. The media can continue to trash anyone "not Brady" that tried to play QB for this team (especially a rook) with the grass is greener card for another entire year with the only possible solution a massive backslide for the Bucs and a huge run for the Patriots which even with the upgrades elsewhere is a tall order.

The media = worst outcome??? Who cares.
 
You talk in absolutes and are so definite about a process that is knowingly hit and miss. If we draft Fields and IF he develops he may potentially be starting as early as October
Seriously?? You actually wrote a post to say that someone stating their opinion of what will happen in the future and predicting what they think will happen isn’t a certainty? Are you now going to go back and go the same to every post on this board where people give opinions and point out opinions are not certain to happen? That will take you a very long time.
 
Your punter had more yards than you threw for in a passing league. Eight TDs...no starter with less in the same number of games. If you're not #32...you're likely #31 and that's still a toss-up. Great locker room guy, probably the right guy to follow the GOAT as an intermezzo (although the Super Bowl win for Brady basically extended that craptastic meal for another year) from a media pressure standpoint, but that doesn't mean you're a good NFL QB anymore.

Honestly though, that's the biggest issue that remains for me - with Brady winning again - the whole heir pressure issue DID NOT get resolved with a bridge year - it just extended it - the worst possible outcome for the Patriots. The media can continue to trash anyone "not Brady" that tried to play QB for this team (especially a rook) with the grass is greener card for another entire year with the only possible solution a massive backslide for the Bucs and a huge run for the Patriots which even with the upgrades elsewhere is a tall order.

I agree he isn’t 32. He is a lot lower.
Who cares about the media?
 
I can’t wait for Jimmy G to be traded elsewhere or cut so people, the media, fans can stop talking about. Listening to weei and wow can they beat a dead horse. Move on.
 
You don’t know that. Cam hasn’t given any indication that he would accept a backup role. This is what he said prior to re-signing with the Pats:


"I know out of 32 guys, I'm not the 32 position rank. So you have to also understand, I'm a competitor first. I know what my skill set is, I know what my talent is. I understand that if given the opportunity, there is nobody better than me. That's how I'll always feel. I have to also feel realistic about the opportunity that is presented as well," Newton said in the radio interview.

"If you are asking me, Do I want to be a backup? Hell no! When I look at other teams, and I'm looking at other players play, there have been guys that have been getting away with murder for years because of subpar play. Do I have the right to say that with the year I had this year? No. But I'm going to be honest and say it because that's what I do."


Those are the words of a man who still believes he’s a starter in this league. You assume Garoppolo desperately wants out because his team has traded for his replacement, yet you think Cam would be fine with the Pats trading for his replacement? Again, Cam still thinks he’s an NFL starting QB, but he can’t go out and prove that if he’s benched at the end of training camp. You’d be naive to believe that would sit well with him. Maybe, just maybe, he’d be a good soldier knowing Garoppolo’s durability concerns may give him an opening over the course of the season. Maybe he gives Belichick that respect. But it’s also just as possible Belichick gives Cam the respect of being able to pursue another team to play for. One that didn’t just trade for his replacement.

As far as this statement of yours:



Tells me you don’t understand how the salary cap works. As of this moment the Pats have little over $15 million in cap space available. Garoppolo’s cap hit for this season alone is over $26 million, and it goes to $27 million next year. Without a restructure, the Pats would be $11 million over the cap if they traded for him.

They obviously need the cap space to sign their draftees (they currently have 10 draft picks heading into Thursday) as well as any undrafted free agents, and any cuts that take place over the course of the summer, and a buffer to work with during the season itself. The 49ers have expressed no interest in restructuring Garoppolo’s contract themselves, which would add years of dead money to their own salary cap. To afford Garoppolo in a trade, the Pats would have to get creative and restructure his deal after he is acquired to make it team friendly for this season, kicking the can down years. He’s owed $50.5 million over the next two seasons, and it’s anyone’s guess how much of that he’d be willing to give up for a chance to start with the Pats.

The other mistake you make is saying they only need him for one year. If the Pats have Lance, sure. But you’re not taking into account the possible restructured deal. Right now his current contract has no guaranteed money. The 49ers could cut him tomorrow and suffer a cap hit of only $2.8 million. Or they can cut him next year and the cap hit is only $1.4 million. That’s less in both years combined than what the Pats’ dead cap would be if they cut Cam this year ($5.5 million).

Given the lack of guaranteed money on Garoppolo’s contract, it would only make sense that he agree to the trade and restructure his contract if he sees guaranteed money out of it (I’d wager more than half of his remaining salary at least). Why else would he accept a lateral move: if you’re willing to dump Garoppolo after one year, how is that any different than his situation in San Francisco, except he’d get paid more money this season? If he were to look out for the Pats by restructuring to a friendly deal to fit in this year’s cap, the Pats need to look out for him in return in the form of guaranteed money. It only makes sense. So yes, they might be able to afford him, but only if they agree on a restructure, and it wouldn’t be for just one year. And it wouldn’t make sense to do that if Garoppolo is not the guy you want leading this team beyond this season.

The problem here is you’re only seeing this with rose tinted glasses on, from the perspective of what would be most convenient for the Pats. Trust me I would love nothing more than to the see our prodigal son Garoppolo return home and sacrifice a ton of his salary for the benefit of the team, while Cam, a former MVP and more accomplished player to this point, accepts a backup role for the first time in his career, while still landing Lance (or Fields) without having to give up any additional assets in the process. It’s fun to imagine. But if you think it’s a realistic possibility then you’re wrong.

- Jimmy’s not coming here without some sort of commitment from the Pats, in terms of years or guaranteed money or both. He is not a charity case and the Pats do not have the cap space to handle his current contract without some sort of restructure.

- Cam almost certainly did not sign here with the understanding that he’s going in as a backup. He’s a leader who wants to start and to mentor his teammates. I’m sure he’d be fine if the Pats traded for their 2022 Week 1 starter, but not for their 2021 Week 1 starter. Business is business and the Pats have to look out for their business but Cam needs to look out for his as well, and being benched is bad for his business.

- Lance and Fields are too good to make it all the way to 15. The Pats can still get one of them, but 99% chance they’d have to trade up to make it happen. I’d be shocked if another team didn’t trade ahead of them to get whoever’s left between them.

Your fantasy scenario has too many factors working against it to be plausible. I’d be more than happy to be wrong here, I would personally apologize to you and celebrate if it all came true. But I don’t think I’ll have to worry about that.
Im not going to spend time arguing about hypothetical situations,which is what all of these are. Theres plenty here who enjoy that. I dont. A big waste of time.
Obviously, JG would have to restructure.
Thats a given in that scenario. Not necessary to even mention it. Duh.
Cam is a team player. He also played like crap last year. Last time I checked, BB was still HC. Every spot on the team is open comp. Nothing is promised. Never has been. At some point,dude,hes going to get beat out by somebody, be it a JG, a rookie or another vet. Probaby at some point this upcoming season.He wont pout. Of course he'll continue to compete and fight for the job. Thats what everyones supposed to do.
You obviously havent been paying attention to how Belichick runs things for the last 20 years. Im done with this.
 
It is cam job to lose. I believe the Patriots will draft a quarterback be it in the first, second or third round. If it is in the first round and to be exact fields or Lance, Cam is the starter, Fields the backup and stidham traded or cut. The only way cam is not the starter is if they were to bring in Jimmy G or Watson. That’s the only way I see cam losing the starting Job.
 
Last edited:
Since everyone loves JimmyG talk ;), here is my prediction: If the Patriots are able to trade this year's second for JimmyG, you can be pretty sure they will try to trade down from 15 to get a replacement second. They hate having gaps in the rounds.

If this trade does not happen, and Justin Fields is not available at 15, watch out for a trade back for picks next year....queue the screaming when Waddle is still on the board....
 
You don’t know that. Cam hasn’t given any indication that he would accept a backup role. This is what he said prior to re-signing with the Pats:


"I know out of 32 guys, I'm not the 32 position rank. So you have to also understand, I'm a competitor first. I know what my skill set is, I know what my talent is. I understand that if given the opportunity, there is nobody better than me. That's how I'll always feel. I have to also feel realistic about the opportunity that is presented as well," Newton said in the radio interview.

"If you are asking me, Do I want to be a backup? Hell no! When I look at other teams, and I'm looking at other players play, there have been guys that have been getting away with murder for years because of subpar play. Do I have the right to say that with the year I had this year? No. But I'm going to be honest and say it because that's what I do."


Those are the words of a man who still believes he’s a starter in this league. You assume Garoppolo desperately wants out because his team has traded for his replacement, yet you think Cam would be fine with the Pats trading for his replacement? Again, Cam still thinks he’s an NFL starting QB, but he can’t go out and prove that if he’s benched at the end of training camp. You’d be naive to believe that would sit well with him. Maybe, just maybe, he’d be a good soldier knowing Garoppolo’s durability concerns may give him an opening over the course of the season. Maybe he gives Belichick that respect. But it’s also just as possible Belichick gives Cam the respect of being able to pursue another team to play for. One that didn’t just trade for his replacement.

As far as this statement of yours:



Tells me you don’t understand how the salary cap works. As of this moment the Pats have little over $15 million in cap space available. Garoppolo’s cap hit for this season alone is over $26 million, and it goes to $27 million next year. Without a restructure, the Pats would be $11 million over the cap if they traded for him.

They obviously need the cap space to sign their draftees (they currently have 10 draft picks heading into Thursday) as well as any undrafted free agents, and any cuts that take place over the course of the summer, and a buffer to work with during the season itself. The 49ers have expressed no interest in restructuring Garoppolo’s contract themselves, which would add years of dead money to their own salary cap. To afford Garoppolo in a trade, the Pats would have to get creative and restructure his deal after he is acquired to make it team friendly for this season, kicking the can down years. He’s owed $50.5 million over the next two seasons, and it’s anyone’s guess how much of that he’d be willing to give up for a chance to start with the Pats.

The other mistake you make is saying they only need him for one year. If the Pats have Lance, sure. But you’re not taking into account the possible restructured deal. Right now his current contract has no guaranteed money. The 49ers could cut him tomorrow and suffer a cap hit of only $2.8 million. Or they can cut him next year and the cap hit is only $1.4 million. That’s less in both years combined than what the Pats’ dead cap would be if they cut Cam this year ($5.5 million).

Given the lack of guaranteed money on Garoppolo’s contract, it would only make sense that he agree to the trade and restructure his contract if he sees guaranteed money out of it (I’d wager more than half of his remaining salary at least). Why else would he accept a lateral move: if you’re willing to dump Garoppolo after one year, how is that any different than his situation in San Francisco, except he’d get paid more money this season? If he were to look out for the Pats by restructuring to a friendly deal to fit in this year’s cap, the Pats need to look out for him in return in the form of guaranteed money. It only makes sense. So yes, they might be able to afford him, but only if they agree on a restructure, and it wouldn’t be for just one year. And it wouldn’t make sense to do that if Garoppolo is not the guy you want leading this team beyond this season.

The problem here is you’re only seeing this with rose tinted glasses on, from the perspective of what would be most convenient for the Pats. Trust me I would love nothing more than to the see our prodigal son Garoppolo return home and sacrifice a ton of his salary for the benefit of the team, while Cam, a former MVP and more accomplished player to this point, accepts a backup role for the first time in his career, while still landing Lance (or Fields) without having to give up any additional assets in the process. It’s fun to imagine. But if you think it’s a realistic possibility then you’re wrong.

- Jimmy’s not coming here without some sort of commitment from the Pats, in terms of years or guaranteed money or both. He is not a charity case and the Pats do not have the cap space to handle his current contract without some sort of restructure.

- Cam almost certainly did not sign here with the understanding that he’s going in as a backup. He’s a leader who wants to start and to mentor his teammates. I’m sure he’d be fine if the Pats traded for their 2022 Week 1 starter, but not for their 2021 Week 1 starter. Business is business and the Pats have to look out for their business but Cam needs to look out for his as well, and being benched is bad for his business.

- Lance and Fields are too good to make it all the way to 15. The Pats can still get one of them, but 99% chance they’d have to trade up to make it happen. I’d be shocked if another team didn’t trade ahead of them to get whoever’s left between them.

Your fantasy scenario has too many factors working against it to be plausible. I’d be more than happy to be wrong here, I would personally apologize to you and celebrate if it all came true. But I don’t think I’ll have to worry about that.
Newton doesn’t decide who plays Qb.
He was signed for backup money and the day he signed there were numerous reports that the patriots said they were still looking for a QB and they have been tied to every single one that is available. Of course he understands he very well could be the backup.
In any event I don’t understand why what he thinks it doesn’t think would make the patriots not want to improve the position.
If some how Garoppolo ends up here, newton will immediately either become the backup or be released, more likely the backup due to Jimmy’s injury issues.
 
It is cam job to lose. I believe the Patriots will draft a quarterback be it in the first, second or third round. If it is in the first round and to be exact fields or Lance, Cam is the starter, Fields the backup and stidham traded or cut. The only ear cam is not the starter is if they were to bring in Jimmy G or Watson. That’s the only way I see cam losing the starting Job.
If we move up and draft a QB they will be playing by October. You can’t watch the suck that is newton bring your team down and tell the future to sit around and watch it for very long.
 
yup. Gets only harder from here to secure a franchise QB.
We had 70 million in cap space, in a year with more QB movement than ever, the # 15 pick and the worst QB room in the league. If we don’t do it this year we royally screwed up.
 
Im not going to spend time arguing about hypothetical situations,which is what all of these are. Theres plenty here who enjoy that. I dont. A big waste of time.
Obviously, JG would have to restructure.
Thats a given in that scenario. Not necessary to even mention it. Duh.
Cam is a team player. He also played like crap last year. Last time I checked, BB was still HC. Every spot on the team is open comp. Nothing is promised. Never has been. At some point,dude,hes going to get beat out by somebody, be it a JG, a rookie or another vet. Probaby at some point this upcoming season.He wont pout. Of course he'll continue to compete and fight for the job. Thats what everyones supposed to do.
You obviously havent been paying attention to how Belichick runs things for the last 20 years. Im done with this.
I agree that Jimmy would beat out Cam for the starting job. I would certainly hope so if they trade anything of value to get him. I don’t agree that Cam would take it gracefully, and I gave my reasons why.

I had to bring up the restructure because it’s not an insignificant detail. It’s a potential deal-breaker to your “one and done” plan with Jimmy. Like I said, in order for them to afford his contract, they’ll need to push that money into future years on the cap. They’d already be on the hook for two years, but now you’re talking about three, four, or more years.

I take exception to you claiming I haven’t paid attention to how Belichick runs the team for the last 20 years. On the contrary, trading draft capital (let’s assume a second round pick) for a QB you have to pay multiple years for, only to dump him after one year, is a waste of assets and is not smart business. As a self-proclaimed authority on Belichick, surely you know that isn’t how he operates.

That all being said, clearly we’re not going to change each other’s minds on this, so I wanted to give you my response before I join you in exiting this conversation.
 
If we move up and draft a QB they will be playing by October. You can’t watch the suck that is newton bring your team down and tell the future to sit around and watch it for very long.
If we move up and draft a QB they will be playing by October. You can’t watch the suck that is newton bring your team down and tell the future to sit around and watch it for very long.
Fair enough. A year gets the rookie quarterback ready but if fields or Lance beats out cam so be. I will be happy that happens because it is means they are ready to start on opening day and Cam sucks. If fields is the real deal, then I am ok with him being the starter
 
We had 70 million in cap space, in a year with more QB movement than ever, the # 15 pick and the worst QB room in the league. If we don’t do it this year we royally screwed up.
It just doesn't make sense to not move up.
Next year we have a worse draft pick and a much worse QB class.
I guess you can hope for a quality QB to hit the market but that is unlikely as well.
 
We had 70 million in cap space, in a year with more QB movement than ever, the # 15 pick and the worst QB room in the league. If we don’t do it this year we royally screwed up.
The screw up at the QB position happened well before this year unfortunately. But I agree overall. We need to hit it this year or else we are set even further back from being contenders.
 
We had 70 million in cap space, in a year with more QB movement than ever, the # 15 pick and the worst QB room in the league. If we don’t do it this year we royally screwed up.
Unless of course Cam comes in does really well and they win the superbowl. Then we didn't screw up.
 
It just doesn't make sense to not move up.
Next year we have a worse draft pick and a much worse QB class.
I guess you can hope for a quality QB to hit the market but that is unlikely as well.
I'm not betting the house that we really will have a worse draft pick tbh.
 
Newton doesn’t decide who plays Qb.
He was signed for backup money and the day he signed there were numerous reports that the patriots said they were still looking for a QB and they have been tied to every single one that is available. Of course he understands he very well could be the backup.
In any event I don’t understand why what he thinks it doesn’t think would make the patriots not want to improve the position.
If some how Garoppolo ends up here, newton will immediately either become the backup or be released, more likely the backup due to Jimmy’s injury issues.
Obviously Cam doesn’t get to decide who starts. But the context of his situation matters. He signed for peanuts late last year, on a prove it deal, and his only competition for the starting role was Stidham and Hoyer. He signed for backup QB money, and still got the starter job.

There were a multitude of reasons, both in and out of his control, why Cam didn’t perform up to par last season. I’m not confident in him as our starter, and would rather see him replaced either by Garoppolo or one of the 1st round QB’s in this year’s draft.

When Cam was re-signed, Garoppolo was not yet available for trade. Lynch was posturing to the media that he wasn’t concerned with Garoppolo’s contract. He also postured at the time that he didn’t anticipate going after a first round QB. We of course now know that was BS, but the point was Garoppolo, at least publicly, still factored in to the 49ers plans and they weren’t parting with him prior to free agency.


I assume BB did not want to go into free agency with the optics of only Stidham and Dolegala in the QB room. He had to have somebody, and Cam was the most familiar and most affordable option at the time. He’s respected by players around the league. Obviously the money being offered played the biggest role in attracting free agents for the most part, but I think we as fans tend to be more cynical of Cam than the players do.

Cam acknowledged that he sucked last year, but he also put out that he wants to be part of the solution for this year. That means having one more opportunity to prove himself.


No question he expected the Pats to try to improve the QB situation around him. But likely in the form of a rookie, who he could mentor this year and take off the training wheels next year, while he then goes into free agency after having been given a second chance to audition for his next contract. Trading for a veteran QB who will be expected to start over him undercuts Cam. Now I don’t care if he’s upset or not about that, but BB has given professional courtesy to veterans in the past in situations like this (see Demaryius Thomas after the Pats went and signed Antonio Brown…I seem to remember that Thomas was traded rather than cut so that his salary was guaranteed, I could be wrong). In this case BB would give Cam the courtesy of seeking a new team who would give him a chance to start. No idea who that team would be, but still.

Of course, as we all know, Garoppolo’s durability issues could lend opportunities for whoever’s holding the clipboard. So if Cam is kept around, it’s probably with that understanding. If he’s not, it could be because he and BB mutually agree he needs to go. Or could be Stidham shows enough improvement in training camp to be kept instead of Cam (and this is assuming mystery rookie QB is also on the team).

And I think it depends on who the rookie QB is. If BB chooses not to take one of the top 5 QB’s in this draft, then we’re looking at a Day 2 or 3 guy who not as much is being invested in. So the urgency to have the kid ready by 2022 may not be there, if Garoppolo is added and proves to be dependable. Let’s say it’s Jamie Newman in the 5th round. You can have Garoppolo/Newton/Newman or Garoppolo/Stidham/Newman. And going into 2022, Garoppolo would still be the presumed starter, since more has been invested in him than in Newman at that point. If the rookie QB is Lance or Fields, now you’ve invested a 1st round pick (plus), with the expectation that he’ll start in 2022 at the latest. Garoppolo is not a Brady or Favre where he can hold off such a high investment for multiple years.

The long and short of it is it’s not so cut and dry that the Pats would invest a lot in two new QB’s on top of rostering Cam at the same time. That’s where I have questions.
 


MORSE: Final First Round Patriots Mock Draft
Slow Starts: Stark Contrast as Patriots Ponder Which Top QB To Draft
Wednesday Patriots Notebook 4/24: News and Notes
Tuesday Patriots Notebook 4/23: News and Notes
MORSE: Final 7 Round Patriots Mock Draft, Matthew Slater News
Bruschi’s Proudest Moment: Former LB Speaks to MusketFire’s Marshall in Recent Interview
Monday Patriots Notebook 4/22: News and Notes
Patriots News 4-21, Kraft-Belichick, A.J. Brown Trade?
MORSE: Patriots Draft Needs and Draft Related Info
Friday Patriots Notebook 4/19: News and Notes
Back
Top