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2022 Patriots Season:
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Mon
Dec 12th
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This has an opening post with good commentary and information, which we definitely recommend reading.

patfanken

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When we all look back at the history of this season, your petty observations that you WEREN'T being entertained enough during today's game, will be totally forgotten and all will be remembered was Marcus Jones' great run and it was a WIN!!. No team in my entire memory (and its a long one....at least so far) has been so vilified during a period where they have won 5 of their last 6 games.

Now I should know better to participate on the game day thread, but it's fun to express one's frustrations, etc immediately and get feedback from others like minded souls. But the WHINING coming from that thread yesterday was unbelievable. It like they all wanted their money back because the offense wasn't impressive enough for them. Bah Humbug, I say. The Pats were in control for the entire game and despite the wind, the loss of 2 starting OLmen, and having another starter hobbling, Mac Managed to pass for about 250 yds with no picks and we ram for about 100 more. WHAT do you want people. What about 5 of 6 Wins don't you get. JEEEEEEES!

Assorted offensive observations

When Brady was at his best, there majority of his passes were thrown in a rhythm. Take his drop, and step up off his back leg and throw. On at least 4 of those sacks, I saw Mac, take his drop step up and......NOT throw the ball, and then after a second later get sacked. I wonder if people who get the all 22 can tell me if the first read was covered, or did Mac just miss the open man. In every game I watch the really good QB's throw balls to covered guys ALL the time and often get results. Have the Pats over reacted to the picks so that Mac is afraid to "just sling it". I hope not.

Teams that lose 2 starting OLmen during a game have a lot of trouble in pass protection AND run blocking by definition. Don't you get it. Add to this that Brown was knocked out of the game but HAD to return when Wynn got hurt. What did you expect. Bottom line the Pats dropped back 33 times and the protection was good enough to throw 27 passes down field. Given what they had on the field for most of the game, AND they were playing against one of the best DL's in the league, that is NOT a horrible job. It is more or less what you'd expect.

Bottom line Mac through the ball accurately and well. 250 yds is a decent result this year. The fact that all those yds, AND the 100 rushing yds didn't add up to more than 3 points SHOULD be what the discussion is about. I think first and foremost, penalties were a big reason, and it's been a long time since I was this pissed at a set of refs than I was in this game. Time and time again we saw replay after replay where a Pats player was being bear hugged WITHOUT holding call. Yet some VERY ticky tack calls were being called on the Pats. The worst one was the roughing the punter call even though the punter was never touched by a Pats player. But there were a few other calls including a real weak holding call away from the play that gifted the Jets a rare first down. IIRC correctly the Pats had about 50 or 60 yds in penalties and when you add that to the 48 yds lost to the sacks, you have over 100yds to make up and THAT will limit your scoring chances by a lot.

Some Defensive observations.

The Pats defense AGAIN played lights out. The best Jet offensive play was a success because of a badly underthrown ball and a push off by the well covered WR. The other 2 good jet plays were QB runs by Wilson. The rest of the Jets rushing attack came on 20 carries for 53yds. Outside of up to 3 dropped picks, the defensive backfield was again outstanding.

Mac Wilson spying on the QB was a good touch. Wilson is limited for sure, but he CAN run the ball and he DID have a couple of effective runs that led him to be their best runner with about 30 odd yds. Outside of those 2 or 3 runs the defense really did a GREAT job of corralling him. Really I think he had just 4 or 5 passes that were NOT made under duress.

The Pats DL and LB's do a WONDERFUL job scheming and executing twists during their pass rushes. I noticed it very early on because I was expecting it.. I would say at least half of Judon's sacks have come on twists that free him with direct access to the QB. But its the execution I want to talk about. For every sack Judon gets using this scheme REQUIRES that at least one DLman to sacrifice himself creating the opening that Judon goes through. And remember its not like the Jets were surprised. The Pats have been using this tactic all season. So the reason it was so successful was the EXECUTION. Even if you know it is coming if it's executed well a guy gets open. Just like a good pass route that frees a receiver. '

Again, in my opinion, it is less about the scheme itself. Every team has this in it's arsenal. But when it is executed well, it is a thing of beauty Something even Uche has benefited on. That is why we SHOULD remember that while we root for Judon to break sack records, HIS success comes as a direct result of the work of others. BTW - Judon's execution of this stunt greatly aids its success. He is patient, meaning he take a few HARD steps like he's going to rush from the outside. IMHO, it is his footwork in freezing the OT then so very quickly transition to the inside and then exploding into the gap that is created by the DT or NT who is driving his man in the other direction. If you recorded this game, go back and look for this game the Pats play and how often it worked.

The Pats had a LOT of different LB/S combinations roaming the 2nd level today, but the major constant in all this was Bentley. I don't know, but he was everywhere snuffing out and erasing the Jets running attack. This year he seems less likely to over run plays. He doesn't seem to get caught up in the wash. THIS is the Jujaun Bentley we hoped he would be after his promising first year.....but never got. It took a long time, but it seems fair to say it was worth the wait.

Jets fans might take hope in the fact that at least Wilson didn't throw any picks this game, but that was only because our DB's don't have great hands (which is probably why they are DB's and not WR's) McCourt had the worst drop. Jones' was a great DB play, but he dropped it too. There was another close one by Jack Jones along the sideline, but that would have taken a remarkable catch but it WAS great coverage on the play

Bottom line: Whatever coverages they were running, the Pats had their usual glue like runs with the Jets receivers. It has happens so often that no one can claim it's a one shot thing. Strong defense on all THREE levels......and we are going to need it this thursday.

The Thursday game is so close I might as well give my two cents on what will happen.

The truth is despite the records differential and the fact we have to travel, on a short week, I would have been fairly confident about this game because the Vikings defense, despite have a bunch of "name players" on their team has been clearly the weak link of their team. I would have felt the Pats would be able to move the ball, while the defense would be able to hold the Vikings under 24. BUT given the state of the Pats OL, I HAVE to wonder.

There is no planning for injuries, ESPECIALLY ones that happen during the game. Subpar replacements do better when they have a week to prepare when they know they are the starter, than when they have to take the field cold after getting just 2nd team reps. So we have THAT going for us....I think.

Ferentz is going to be a focal point of very defensive game plan. It's not like he's going to fail every play, but instead of losing 5-10% of the time, he's losing 20-25% of the time and that is just NOT good enough. Personally I have NO idea how they fix that. Like everyone else I was hoping Roussey would be the back up C, but it hasn't panned out. He's on the roster now, but I don't see him playing the next 2 games. My best hope (if it's true Andrews is done for the year) is Roussey might be ready to take over after the Buffalo game and we have that mini bye. SO on Thursday the Pats will likely have an OL of Brown, Strange, Ferrentz, Owenu, and Cajuste. :eek:.

I earlier opined that as bad as the OL seemed to be, they DID allow enough time for Mac to throw 27 times in 33 drop backs and accumulate 246 yds. If they can cut that sack number down from 6 to 3 against a DL that is descent with LSmith but a big step down from the Jets DL. THAT would give me hope we will see a better result from even THIS scary OL.

IT would be ridiculous to think that Mac will complete 83% of his passes this week too, but I hope that this drop of percentage will be mitigated by the number of completions down field, because it's their secondary that is their weakness. And we should get more down field openings this week

While the secondary has been the strength of this team, it will need to step it up a notch to contend with this passing attack. Just being in proximity of the receiver is NOT going to be been enough Thursday. These receivers MAKE plays when they are covered. So this game so must our secondary. Not an easy task. So the name of the game is your best defense is a good offense. And THIS is a game where the offense finally has to come and play. They need to score points and take time off the clock. They don't have to score everytime they have the ball, but they DO have to get at least one first down.

Will they win? Bill usually done well in preparing for short weeks. On the other hand, Bill hasn't done well playing this disciples recently. O'Connor has done a great job so far in Minnesota, whether the the decline in the Rams offense is all about KOC, I'll leave that to your imagination. But he's on his first short week as a HC so.........

OK that's enough. I have more, it will probably come out during my responses to the comments. Enjoy (I hope)
 

oldrover

"You're gonna have to serve somebody..."
Yay!

71o41n.gif


If Peter King was really good, he'd be patfanken. :)
 

Patstopia

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
2021 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
If it wasn't for the defense the Patriots never would have won a game. You can't beat good teams with FGs. I'm gonna get an ulcer from this season.
 

Hyped

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Comments:

- Yeah, this board is full of Negative Nancies....but I love me a good defensive slug fest.

- Regarding the offense, I liked what Mac did yesterday... just taking what the D gave us. BUT, I'd like to see Mac under center more....more play action...or RPO from thw shot gun. At least, with a RPO play..Mac can throw it into the dirt to avoid sacks/grounding calls. If we just eliminate the negative plays...the floodgates will open, IMO. I mean we stalled in the red zone twice yesterday after getting first and goals because of negative plays.

- More Damien Harris please. Rham is the better RB, but Damien is better between the tackles, IMO. Defenses can't just rush into the backfield when DH has the ball or he will hit the 2nd level, IMO.
 

TheRainMaker

My Mom says I'm a catch
2020 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
- More Damien Harris please. Rham is the better RB, but Damien is better between the tackles, IMO. Defenses can't just rush into the backfield when DH has the ball or he will hit the 2nd level, IMO.
That's the one thing that has stood out with Rham - he does seem slow in his cuts. Harris has a lot more explosion.
 

VrabelJr

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
I am not a Mac hater, I'd like to see him succeed, but I am quite tired of people using his stat line to say he played well. When you say a player played well you are saying they contributed positively. Mac was serviceable at best. He didn't hurt us and he didn't help.

If you take away Stevenson's, Harris', and Jonnu Smith's YAC then Mac's stat line becomes 23/27 and 137 yards. That's 6 yards per reception, or 1.5 to 1.8 yards more than what you want a starting RB to produce with the added risk of interceptions. That is not good. The Jets are a good defense, that is still not a good stat line and reflects his inability to work through his progressions. At least two of his four incompletions were low quality throws and if the deep one to Agholor into triple coverage wasn't horribly overthrown it could have been an interception.

I believe BB has put the leash on him and he is being coached to take sacks, rather than throw interceptions, until he can improve his ability to read defenses and get a better feel for how to navigate the pocket and extend plays via sliding. A game like yesterday's is good experience for a kid like Mac.
 

patfanken

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Interesting take by Bedard, in the first of his breakdowns. He went over the 6 sacks and found that on 5 of them, the blame would go to others for the play's failure. Mostly Brown, Ferrentz and Cajuste for bad protection, but he damned multiple receivers like Henry who didn't have his head around when there WAS a chance to complete the pass. On the one he blamed Mac for was waiting on Herny and Stevenson to turn their heads and NOT going to Aghular or Bourne who were open on the other side. Then he backs HIS interpretation of the data with film.

BTW- I happened to notice after reading a story about Fields' shoulder separation. I couldn't help notice that he had 1642 passing yards and was treated this year (or at least after the Pats game) as the top guy from his class and a budding superstar. Yet the much maligned Mac Jones who just as quickly had gone from being the next Brady, to 'who's next"; has 1384 yds in FOUR fewer games.

Now I'm not myopic. I understand how Fields is a dynamic run threat, but the dude still can't pass in those critical moments. And when the greatest ability is your availability , his latest injury should be a cautionary tale to those teams that are willing to live or die on the back of a dual threat QB. I see a guy like Allen being the exception to the rule just because he's so damned big. When he's takes of he's going to be bigger than 90% of the guys trying to tackle him in the 2nd level. I worry about the poor 180lb DBs trying to bring him down. IIRC Jackson has only finished the season in 3 of his 5 years, and the 5th one isn't over yet for the one playoff win QB.
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VrabelJr

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
- Regarding the offense, I liked what Mac did yesterday... just taking what the D gave us. BUT, I'd like to see Mac under center more....more play action...or RPO from thw shot gun. At least, with a RPO play..Mac can throw it into the dirt to avoid sacks/grounding calls.
Mac isn't under center more because he needs to improve significantly at post snap reads. After his first progression he struggles at reconciling where the defense was, now is, and where they are going as he's leading them with his eyes.
 

Hyped

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I am not a Mac hater, I'd like to see him succeed, but I am quite tired of people using his stat line to say he played well. When you say a player played well you are saying they contributed positively. Mac was serviceable at best. He didn't hurt us and he didn't help.

If you take away Stevenson's, Harris', and Jonnu Smith's YAC then Mac's stat line becomes 23/27 and 137 yards. That's 6 yards per reception, or 1.5 to 1.8 yards more than what you want a starting RB to produce with the added risk of interceptions. That is not good. The Jets are a good defense, that is still not a good stat line and reflects his inability to work through his progressions. At least two of his four incompletions were low quality throws and if the deep one to Agholor into triple coverage wasn't horribly overthrown it could have been an interception.

I believe BB has put the leash on him and he is being coached to take sacks, rather than throw interceptions, until he can improve his ability to read defenses and get a better feel for how to navigate the pocket and extend plays via sliding. A game like yesterday's is good experience for a kid like Mac.
At best, he doesn't have time to go beyond his 2nd/3rd option!!!! He also targeted Jonnu, Henry, Agholor, Meyers, Bourne, Harris, Rham, and Thorton! He is spreading the ball around too as fast as he can.

I'd like to see some more throws at the feet of our RB's though....
 

everlong

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal
The problem with the offense isn't as simple as one player, position group or the coaching staff. The truth is it's all of them.

There are times when the OL actually blocks fine and none of the receivers are open. There are times where there's a window and Mac holds the ball with uncertainty and then gets sacked. There's times where screw the defense calling out the plays I'm calling them out because it's so obvious.

I think the following needs to be true for this offense to reach mediocrity.

1. Mac has to get his internal clock in check where if everybody is blanketed just do a Brady and throw it in the dirt at somebody's feet. Live to fight another down but from 2nd and 10 not 16.

2. The OC needs to start using more play action especially on first down. They also need more misdirections like that fake toss and bootleg pass to Henry.

3. The pre-snap penalties need to stop. This is two years of no discipline. They aren't good enough to lose yards before a play even starts.

4. They need somebody besides Meyers to be a consistent threat. Really 2 somebody's and one of them needs to be that quick option. I'd design from plays for Thorton with quick slants or cut ins/out and set something up later for something deep. I also wonder about using somebody like Marcus Jones on offense. They need somebody explosive. I saw a few of his games at Houston but I have no idea if they ever used him on offense.

5. The RZ play calling has to be better. The problem is they don't have a lot of options. There is no Gronk or other mismatch. Your OL isn't good enough to just lineup and run Stevenson/Harris. Teams are overcommitting to them. So you need to use it against them. Use the TEs more here.


With all that said I don't know how you fix this OL. With that said I think Dallas exposed the Vikings and Bill is going to exploit that and they have a real shot of pulling the upset.
 

TheRainMaker

My Mom says I'm a catch
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4. They need somebody besides Meyers to be a consistent threat.
Meyers is not even a threat. Teams will take Meyers getting his typical catches off of play action over the middle and then disappearing the rest of the day.

This team needs an another overhaul at WR. But the first priority is the OL.
 

Hyped

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Now about the defense...we have been lights out on D over the last 5 games with the exception of the Bears game. I still worry about our D vs. mobile QBs....guess we will find out in 10 days when Josh Allen comes into Foxborough.... if we can't get off the field on 3rd down...we are cooked, IMO. But first things first....Kirk Cousins & Co!!!
 

everlong

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal
Meyers is not even a threat. Teams will take Meyers getting his typical catches off of play action over the middle and then disappearing the rest of the day.

This team needs an another overhaul at WR.

Meyers is fine as a 3 or 4 but on this team he's being asked to be a 1. I agree they'll take him away because there's nobody else.
 

PowerRunRevival

Third String But Playing on Special Teams
Mac isn't under center more because he needs to improve significantly at post snap reads. After his first progression he struggles at reconciling where the defense was, now is, and where they are going as he's leading them with his eyes.
Mac seemed so much better last year at identifying the defense both pre and post snap. I really want to know what McDaniels was doing working with Mac that Patricia isn’t doing.

I believe reading the defense is about pattern recognition/intelligence, experience and work put in during the week. It’s unlikely Mac got, dumber, or stopped working and he has more experience than last season.
 

TheRainMaker

My Mom says I'm a catch
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Now about the defense...we have been lights out on D over the last 5 games with the exception of the Bears game. I still worry about our D vs. mobile QBs....guess we will find out in 10 days when Josh Allen comes into Foxborough.... if we can't get off the field on 3rd down...we are cooked, IMO. But first things first....Kirk Cousins & Co!!!
I could see that game either way as well. Bills are that team that hang 40 on you or lay an egg as they've done several times this season.
 

TheRainMaker

My Mom says I'm a catch
2020 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
Meyers is fine as a 3 or 4 but on this team he's being asked to be a 1. I agree they'll take him away because there's nobody else.
Mac targets him to much because the OL is atrocious and he runs the shortest routes. Same thing with the RB's being being overly targeted.
 

Marko

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
Interesting take by Bedard, in the first of his breakdowns. He went over the 6 sacks and found that on 5 of them, the blame would go to others for the play's failure. Mostly Brown, Ferrentz and Cajuste for bad protection, but he damned multiple receivers like Henry who didn't have his head around when there WAS a chance to complete the pass. On the one he blamed Mac for was waiting on Herny and Stevenson to turn their heads and NOT going to Aghular or Bourne who were open on the other side. Then he backs HIS interpretation of the data with film.

BTW- I happened to notice after reading a story about Fields' shoulder separation. I couldn't help notice that he had 1642 passing yards and was treated this year (or at least after the Pats game) as the top guy from his class and a budding superstar. Yet the much maligned Mac Jones who just as quickly had gone from being the next Brady, to 'who's next"; has 1384 yds in FOUR fewer games.

Now I'm not myopic. I understand how Fields is a dynamic run threat, but the dude still can't pass in those critical moments. And when the greatest ability is your availability , his latest injury should be a cautionary tale to those teams that are willing to live or die on the back of a dual threat QB. I see a guy like Allen being the exception to the rule just because he's so damned big. When he's takes of he's going to be bigger than 90% of the guys trying to tackle him in the 2nd level. I worry about the poor 180lb DBs trying to bring him down. IIRC Jackson has only finished the season in 3 of his 5 years, and the 5th one isn't over yet for the one playoff win QB.
.
Stop making sense.
 

cmasspatsfan

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
I am not a Mac hater, I'd like to see him succeed, but I am quite tired of people using his stat line to say he played well. When you say a player played well you are saying they contributed positively. Mac was serviceable at best. He didn't hurt us and he didn't help.

If you take away Stevenson's, Harris', and Jonnu Smith's YAC then Mac's stat line becomes 23/27 and 137 yards. That's 6 yards per reception, or 1.5 to 1.8 yards more than what you want a starting RB to produce with the added risk of interceptions. That is not good. The Jets are a good defense, that is still not a good stat line and reflects his inability to work through his progressions. At least two of his four incompletions were low quality throws and if the deep one to Agholor into triple coverage wasn't horribly overthrown it could have been an interception.

I believe BB has put the leash on him and he is being coached to take sacks, rather than throw interceptions, until he can improve his ability to read defenses and get a better feel for how to navigate the pocket and extend plays via sliding. A game like yesterday's is good experience for a kid like Mac.
You're taking away quite a bit there to make your point, you can do something similar on most games.
 


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