Have opinions of Phillip Dorsett changed?

[maineman209]

You are still failing to connect the dots in your own argument. You just admitted Dorsett had to go get it and it didn't "hit him in the hands."

He still had every chance to make the play but this was not a gimme throw. Even an elite receiver, which we all agree Dorsett is not, might have had a little trouble with a bullet over the back shoulder with a defender right on top of him.

The only WR I can think of who would be automatic in that situation is Randy Moss. Not being Moss doesn't really impugn Dorsett very much

Well, the throw wasn't really a "bullet"; there was air under it. Also, it was Dorsett's job to get separation at the top of the route stem, which he did. The DB didn't catch up to him until he was already bobbling the catch. On a clean catch with no bobble, the DB has no play, really.

 

[Kontradiction]

My only point is that a lot of folks seem to be characterizing the throw as "perfect", as is "Brady put it on his hands like it was a handoff".

In this case, Brady put it out there for Dorsett to find it, get separation, run under it, and put himself in a position to catch it cleanly. THOSE things, Dorsett did very well.

I'm not at all downplaying the fact that Dorsett failed on the most critical part of the play. I'm just pointing out that he still did a lot of things really well on the play.

Few throws downfield are perfect. With a receiver like Dorsett, the best you can do is put it out far enough for him to track it. With a receiver like Julio or Brandon Marshall in his prime, you can also underthrow it and make it a jump ball. In this case, Brady did enough to get it there. The throw is exponentially harder than the catch.

 

[n1997y]

What does that look like to you? I see a ball, I see a receiver, I see a set of hands, and I see the football in that set of hands. The ball hit him in the hands. When this event takes place, one of two outcomes are possible:

1. The receiver catches it.
2. The receiver drops it.

In this case, he dropped it. That's on Dorsett.



I invite you to watch that play again. Maybe make a .GIF of it so you can watch it over and over. Dorsett jumping was not necessary. He could have easily taken another step if he was better able to track the ball. Still, though, it hit him in the hands. He should have caught it. No matter how dark or light that shade of grey that you're trying to use is, that's a salient fact.

Wrong. Three possible outcomes:
1. Receiver catches it
2. DB breaks it up (either knocks it away or takes it away)
3. Receiver drops it

By omitting the DB you ignore a salient fact.

That makes it impossible to have a nuanced discussion about details. Useful when details are inconsistent with your position of course. Once you've admitted it's not black and white you should stop trying to deny there are shades of grey to be discussed.

 

[Kontradiction]

Wrong. Three possible outcomes:
1. Receiver catches it
2. DB breaks it up (either knocks it away or takes it away)
3. Receiver drops it

By omitting the DB you ignore a salient fact.

That makes it impossible to have a nuanced discussion about details. Useful when details are inconsistent with your position of course. Once you've admitted it's not black and white you should stop trying to deny there are shades of grey to be discussed.

In this instance, the DB was not in a position. That was the assumption. If the DB is in position, you include that. I assumed most people would be smart enough to figure that out without me having to go any further. I guess I gave you too much credit.

There are no shades of grey here. If a ball hits a receiver in the hands and the DB is not in a position to make the play, the receiver should catch it. That's really all there is to it and that's what will be pointed out in the film room. If the receiver drops it, that's on him.

 

[aluminum seats]

So many pages about an incomplete pass, and I’m still not sure what that argument actually is...

 

[Kontradiction]

So many pages about an incomplete pass, and I’m still not sure what that argument actually is...

Don't blame me. I just joined it. From what I've gathered, the argument is whether we should be putting the blame more on Brady or Dorsett for the drop. But it ruined a pretty decent thread that should have been celebrating Dorsett's growth.

 

[RobertWeathers]

So many pages about an incomplete pass, and I’m still not sure what that argument actually is...

Me neither.

From my PoV no one is disagreeing with the notion that it was a) catchable and b) he should have caught it.

I think the back and forth is what was the degree of difficulty.

 

[Kontradiction]

Me neither.

From my PoV no one is disagreeing with the notion that it was a) catchable and b) he should have caught it.

I think the back and forth is what was the degree of difficulty.

That's a catch that a professional WR should make. He didn't. Receivers drop the ball sometimes so it is what it is.

 

[Nunchucks]

Wrong. Three possible outcomes:
1. Receiver catches it
2. DB breaks it up (either knocks it away or takes it away)
3. Receiver drops it

By omitting the DB you ignore a salient fact.

That makes it impossible to have a nuanced discussion about details. Useful when details are inconsistent with your position of course. Once you've admitted it's not black and white you should stop trying to deny there are shades of grey to be discussed.

I've seen so many catches where the DB has a hand in there and tries to rip it out but fails, I don't know if I buy the DB argument. Once a receiver has his hands on the ball, he should catch it, period. Squeeze that ball like it contains the nectar of life inside!

 

[Simpelton]

Well, the throw wasn't really a "bullet"; there was air under it. Also, it was Dorsett's job to get separation at the top of the route stem, which he did. The DB didn't catch up to him until he was already bobbling the catch. On a clean catch with no bobble, the DB has no play, really.

There was a little air under it, but not a lot, that was a line drive throw, designed to get to a point quickly. Let's not pretend TB threw a rainbow.

And even on a clean catch on that throw, in that position, I think the DB catches up to Dorsett. If Dorsett didn't have to leave his feet to haul in the ball maybe he could keep his forward momentum and avoid the tackle, but he lost a bit of speed on the adjustment he had to make to complete the catch and that's what actually put the DB within range.

If Tom Brady had led Dorsett a little more so he could make the catch in stride, that's a touchdown. If the ball didn't go halfway through Dorsett's hands, it's a completion. Unfortunately neither happened and the DB made an excellent play to break up the catch.

 

[Simpelton]

Can I just add because it's worth bringing up -- on that play, it says something that TB went to Dorsett in the first place. The last time I saw Brady make that kind of throw to a receiver on a regular basis was a few years ago with some big strong guy, I forget his name, Randy something.

It says something all by itself that Brady decided to give Dorsett a chance to run one of Moss's old routes. And if I'm a Patriots staffer watching the film, I'm actually encoraged by the outcome. It could have worked. With a bit more luck and only slightly better execution it would have worked.

That play is now in the playbook with #13 on the field IMHO.

 

[upstater1]

Not under any standard other than one in which every single catch is a "hit in the hands."

He had to leave his feet. He had to go get the ball. It did not "hit him in the hands," he moved his hands and his whole body to go get the ball.

Now the throw was very good, Brady did a good job of finding the window and Dorsett didn't have to move very far, but I DARE you to try to say that Dorsett didn't have to make an adjustment to line up that catch. It is a complete denial of reality to suggest that the throw was right in Dorsett's hands. It simply didn't happen that way.

He could still have easily caught it. I honestly think he showed a good effort on the play. I think the defender did a good job of swatting the ball and I think Dorsett is still working on his timing with Brady and that played a role in why it wasn't a complete. But the ball did not "hit him in the hands."

He had to leave his feet because he slowed down earlier because he can't track the ball properly.

We don't have receivers that can do that outside of Gordon.

 

[upstater1]

Can I just add because it's worth bringing up -- on that play, it says something that TB went to Dorsett in the first place. The last time I saw Brady make that kind of throw to a receiver on a regular basis was a few years ago with some big strong guy, I forget his name, Randy something.

It says something all by itself that Brady decided to give Dorsett a chance to run one of Moss's old routes. And if I'm a Patriots staffer watching the film, I'm actually encoraged by the outcome. It could have worked. With a bit more luck and only slightly better execution it would have worked.

That play is now in the playbook with #13 on the field IMHO.

Did you miss the entire year last year with his throws to B Cooks?

 

[upstater1]

And there's the problem in a nutshell.

With past stars, we don't think of them as being mere mortals and don't remember their eff-ups.

With a recent or current player like Dorsett, ALL we remember is their eff-ups, which colors our perceptions of them. I'm saying "we" in this instance because I'm just as guilty as anyone.

In 2017, including post season, Dorsett caught 14 of 21 (67%). His 14 catches included a 38-yarder v. NOL in wk-2, a 39-yarder v. MIA in wk-12 and a 31-yarder v. JAX in the AFCCG. Although I don't recall the details, I'm sure that, among his 7 incompletions, a couple were on deep throws and the rest were on shorter throws. Whether those were all on him or one or two were on Brady, I don't recall, either. Still, regardless how many long(or short) incompletions were on Dorsett, a 67% catch rate with a 17.4 ypc is far, far from shi**y.

So far this season, in the absence of Jules and Danny, Dorsett has been used primarily on short-intermediate routes. He has a ypc of 10.3 on 16 catches out of 21 tgts. AFAIK, he's only been targeted on deep throws twice (less than 10%). One was the pick that Brady threw into double-coverage in Detroit; the other was the missed connection this past Sunday. So, 2 out of Dorsett's 5 "misses" have been on low-percentage deep throws

In spite of those, Dorsett still has gained 165 yards, has 2 TDs, and has a catch-rate over 76%.

And that leads me to what I really can't understand.

WTF is it about this one (maybe) "drop" on Sunday - in the context of his production so far - that makes Dorsett "not a good WR", but one who, instead, should be relegated to the relative invisibility of the #4 WR spot?

Can somebody - ANYBODY - give me a logical, rational explanation for that?

Because it was an easy play that 90% of NFL starting WRs would make.

 

[upstater1]

I think you've got it a little backwards. It's not that this drop convinces folks he's a #4 JAG WR. It's that they've already made up their minds he has a low ceiling and are flogging this deceased equine to validate their prejudice. Whether that's logical and rationale is an open question. It's just human nature.

FYI, I have been a big Dorsett booster, hoping he can provide them what Mitchell did 2 years ago late in the season. That play was practically unforgivable though. Not a garden variety drop.

 

[Simpelton]

Because it was an easy play that 90% of NFL starting WRs would make.

I don't agree. It's a play that a lot of starting WR's could make, but let's be clear, most of them don't get a chance because it's a throw that maybe 5 QBs in the league can even try to make.

Also -- I think the way that play panned out demonstrated that Dorsett is fully capable of making that catch. Even with the bobble he would have secured the catch if the DB hadn't pulled his left arm off the ball. Just because a play didn't work one time doesn't mean it's not viable.

I think that BB and company going over the film of that play will probably say "that could have easily worked. We'll run it in practice and try it again in a few weeks."

 

[Simpelton]

Did you miss the entire year last year with his throws to B Cooks?

I can't remember a lot of big throws to Cooks down the middle over the course of the season. My memory could be way off, but I felt like Cooks was a monster along the sidelines, but tended to be swallowed up by the safeties on throws in the middle of the field.

 

[upstater1]

I don't agree. It's a play that a lot of starting WR's could make, but let's be clear, most of them don't get a chance because it's a throw that maybe 5 QBs in the league can even try to make.

Also -- I think the way that play panned out demonstrated that Dorsett is fully capable of making that catch. Even with the bobble he would have secured the catch if the DB hadn't pulled his left arm off the ball. Just because a play didn't work one time doesn't mean it's not viable.

I think that BB and company going over the film of that play will probably say "that could have easily worked. We'll run it in practice and try it again in a few weeks."

He slowed up and misjudged the ball. He definitely did.

 

[upstater1]

I can't remember a lot of big throws to Cooks down the middle over the course of the season. My memory could be way off, but I felt like Cooks was a monster along the sidelines, but tended to be swallowed up by the safeties on throws in the middle of the field.

I think Cooks had 2 or 3 of these in the Raiders game alone:

 

[n1997y]

In this instance, the DB was not in a position. That was the assumption. If the DB is in position, you include that. I assumed most people would be smart enough to figure that out without me having to go any further. I guess I gave you too much credit.

There are no shades of grey here. If a ball hits a receiver in the hands and the DB is not in a position to make the play, the receiver should catch it. That's really all there is to it and that's what will be pointed out in the film room. If the receiver drops it, that's on him.

Well since the DB hit it out of Dorsett's hands as he was juggling it, your assertion about the DB not being in position to make the play and thus not needing to be considered is obviously wrong. If you're not smart enough to figure that out there's no hope of having a useful discussion with you about it.