Give me Vrabel or Give me Death

[upstater1]

I did not discount anything. I acknowledge that Brady is the key and Bill was secondary.

It's not only objectively true but it's so true that I don't know why y'all are offended.

Bill was fired. He deserved to be fired. His lack of success without Brady is why.

What's the problem? There is no lie here.

You didn't address anything I wrote, so I'm done with you.

You said that there was nothing to defend and no one would dare write anything to defend against what you were saying, then when I did exactly that, you didn't take on ANY of the points I made.

So what's the point of even responding to you?

 

[Ring 6]

I had no clue who your autocorrect was talking about but now I know you're talking about Spagnola I'm not going to spend much time trying to explain why that's silly but I will say I'm sure he's extremely proud of his work as a DC and feels very good about his place as a defensive mind in this league but I'm sure he knows his place compared to the Lombardi's and Bills of history.

Why would Spagnoula be in the conversation? He has 4 rings.

 

[festy1986]

You didn't address anything I wrote, so I'm done with you.

You said that there was nothing to defend and no one would dare write anything to defend against what you were saying, then when I did exactly that, you didn't take on ANY of the points I made.

So what's the point of even responding to you?

That's what I thought when randomly people are euoset thst I said Mayo, like Bill deserved his firing.

Bill failed here miserably at the end. Just like Mayo.

You acknowledge Brady as more important than Bill.

There's no reason for the debate to begin with. We both agreed with both those takes.

 

[signbabybrady]

Why would Spagnoula be in the conversation? He has 4 rings.

Yeah I have no clue I called it funny math in my other post

 

[upstater1]

That's what I thought when randomly people are euoset thst I said Mayo, like Bill deserved his firing.

Bill failed here miserably at the end. Just like Mayo.

You acknowledge Brady as more important than Bill.

There's no reason for the debate to begin with. We both agreed with both those takes.

1. I didn't acknowledge Brady as more important.
2. You didn't address anything I wrote about Bill's history.
3. Bill was in the middle of a rebuild here. He needed a QB since the one he had was the most gutless QB we've seen here, and that's saying something considering Eason.

 

[festy1986]

Yeah I have no clue I called it funny math in my other post

It's not funny at all though.

4 is double 2.

Does that not make him a better defensive coordinator than Bill?

If we're taking the position that his defensive coordinator rings matter when comparing his titles to to Brady's than does that same position not exist when comparing Steve to Bill as DEFENSIVE coordinators only?

I mean, I don't agree with that obviously but I also don't count Parcells titles as Belichicks either.

 

[festy1986]

1. I didn't acknowledge Brady as more important.
2. You didn't address anything I wrote about Bill's history.
3. Bill was in the middle of a rebuild here. He needed a QB since the one he had was the most gutless QB we've seen here, and that's saying something considering Eason.

He was at the end of a rebuild. 4 years is more than enough.

You can give Bill all the credit in the world for the titles you brought here and he deserves every bit of it. He's going to deserve every bit of criticism as well because he ****ed his franchise for probably a decade.

 

[patman12]

Bill was fired at least once. How'd that work out?

I’m not sure that’s a great road to go down. There are more examples of second chance failures than successes.Bill is an exception to the rule.

 

[upstater1]

He was at the end of a rebuild. 4 years is more than enough.

You can give Bill all the credit in the world for the titles you brought here and he deserves every bit of it. He's going to deserve every bit of criticism as well because he ****ed his franchise for probably a decade.

Get ready for a 20 year rebuild because you're not going to find another Belichick. Ain't happening.

4 years is NOT more than enough when the first year is just a post Dynasty paying-the-piper season during Covid. Salary cap mess, no free agents, a QB making $1m because the owner freaks out when you draft a QB to replace his 40 year old mancrush.

Second year they go to the playoffs.

Third year is undoubtedly bad, but it's one year, and your QB is now a crybaby gutless wonder, and Belichick decides he needs to get that guy out of there. The owner refuses.

Fourth year Belichick might as well have been fired before the season since he was undercut from start to finish by a mutiny of front office people and some coaches. No way anyone could coach under those circumstances. Not Lombardi, not anyone. Last year was reminiscent of Belichick's last year in Cleveland when ownership messed things up so badly.

You still haven't addressed what I wrote in terms of Belichick's rebuilds and the reasons why taking over a franchise and rebuilding is much different than winning with a team you have already rebuilt (i.e. the entire Brady era).

 

[Love The Drake]

I love Johnson’s play designs, give me him please.

 

[BUSTAMOVE]

I wouldn't argue that at all.

Look at the current playoff picture.

First Timers:
-Dan Campbell
-John Harbaugh
-Demeco Ryans
-Mike Tomlin
-Sean McDermott
-Nick Sirrianni
-Sean McVay
-Kevin O'Connell
-Matt Lafluer


Retreads:
-Andy Reid
-Jim Harbaugh
-Dan Quinn
-Todd Bowles
-Sean Payton

The 2/3rds of the playoff pool are first time HC's. And I'd even argue that a lot of those retreads are exceptions to the rule. Nobody ever thought Reid, Harbaugh or Payton were bad head coaches. Payton wanted out of the Saints. Harbaugh butted heads with ownership and he kicked him out first chance he got and it was a big deal. And Reid was considered good, but both him and the Eagles needed a change of scenery. They aren't your typical "HC who ended up flaming out and getting ****canned". Bowles and Quinn are the only ones who fit that model.

Good resource
To add to that
First timers:
5 out of the 9 were defensive coaches before becoming a HC
All of them:
Tied 7 to 7 as Offense and Defense coaches before becoming a HC

 

[Lavictoire]

Steve Bellichick as DC even better than headcase Flores. He really improved last season and defense was pretty impressive.

 

[signbabybrady]

It's not funny at all though.

4 is double 2.

Does that not make him a better defensive coordinator than Bill?

If we're taking the position that his defensive coordinator rings matter when comparing his titles to to Brady's than does that same position not exist when comparing Steve to Bill as DEFENSIVE coordinators only?

I mean, I don't agree with that obviously but I also don't count Parcells titles as Belichicks either.

Better explained but I still don't agree with your selective math.

 

[festy1986]

Get ready for a 20 year rebuild because you're not going to find another Belichick. Ain't happening.

4 years is NOT more than enough when the first year is just a post Dynasty paying-the-piper season during Covid. Salary cap mess, no free agents, a QB making $1m because the owner freaks out when you draft a QB to replace his 40 year old mancrush.

Second year they go to the playoffs.

Third year is undoubtedly bad, but it's one year, and your QB is now a crybaby gutless wonder, and Belichick decides he needs to get that guy out of there. The owner refuses.

Fourth year Belichick might as well have been fired before the season since he was undercut from start to finish by a mutiny of front office people and some coaches. No way anyone could coach under those circumstances. Not Lombardi, not anyone. Last year was reminiscent of Belichick's last year in Cleveland when ownership messed things up so badly.

You still haven't addressed what I wrote in terms of Belichick's rebuilds and the reasons why taking over a franchise and rebuilding is much different than winning with a team you have already rebuilt (i.e. the entire Brady era).

Bill earned his firing. His roster management and building has been suspect for years.

I don't have a lot of interest in attacking all these points because it APPEARS you're saying that had we just let Bill do his own thing he would of figured it out.

The only indication we have is that Bill would of continued to drive the roster into the ground.


I just disagree hard that Bill somehow was not responsible for his own declining returns. Nothing happened in the organization that didn't go through his approval.

How many years did you think Bill earned off the back of 6 titles? That he had a job in perpetuity until he no longer wanted it? I think his roster building speaks for itself. He failed the organization and there's no one to blame but him.

And that's okay because we all lose our fastball.

 

[upstater1]

I’m not sure that’s a great road to go down. There are more examples of second chance failures than successes.Bill is an exception to the rule.

We only have a few examples currently and the reviews are mixed:

Mike McCarthy, Doug Pedersen, Andy Reid, Raheem Morris, Jim Harbaugh, Todd Bowles, Dan Quinn.

Sean Payton doesn't count because he wasn't fired from his last job.

It's a mixed bag really with Reid having huge success and Harbaugh, Bowles and Quinn taking their teams to the playoffs.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Spagnuolo is a fantastic DC and will go down as one of the best of all time. He was a Jim Johnson disciple who was also regarded as one of the best in the NFL during his time. Sean McDermott was also from that tree.

Both BB and Spags took down some some of the best offenses of all time. Both did it with and without an elite QB. It comes down to preference.

 

[Tunescribe]

If it’s Vrabel/ McDaniels, I guarantee another Super Bowl within the next 5 years, despite JeFraud’s efforts to undermine the franchise.

 

[upstater1]

Bill earned his firing. His roster management and building has been suspect for years.

I don't have a lot of interest in attacking all these points because it APPEARS you're saying that had we just let Bill do his own thing he would of figured it out.

The only indication we have is that Bill would of continued to drive the roster into the ground.


I just disagree hard that Bill somehow was not responsible for his own declining returns. Nothing happened in the organization that didn't go through his approval.

How many years did you think Bill earned off the back of 6 titles? That he had a job in perpetuity until he no longer wanted it? I think his roster building speaks for itself. He failed the organization and there's no one to blame but him.

And that's okay because we all lose our fastball.

Did you NOT notice that the defense played really well under Bill last 2 years? He rebuilt that defense when he let 7 veteran (slow) starters go after the 2021 playoffs. The players who everyone is calling duds actually played well last year.

If Bill was back with this same team, and the addition of Maye plus Gonzalez, plus a better draft than this one from picking in the top of every round for the first time since 1993, the Patriots are a playoff team this year. Say what you want about Bill's drafts, but even what people deem the bad ones still yielded 3 starters.

That's never going to happen from this draft, with only Maye and Robinson.

Onwenu, Jennings, Dugger, Barmore, Rham, Marcus Jones, Cole Strange, Demario, Gonzalez, Keion White, Boutte came in during this period, and the Free Agents weren't so bad with Bourne, Hunter Henry, Judon, and Peppers, and heck if we had a QB we may have even made use of Jonnu. You can see with all these names the start of a Belichick team that was no different than what we had in 2000 when Belichick arrived in New England.

 

[BUSTAMOVE]

Does vrabel come with his own GM?

He likes Ryan Cowden who presently on the Giants staff but was asst GM during Vrabel Titans years

 

[festy1986]

Did you NOT notice that the defense played really well under Bill last 2 years? He rebuilt that defense when he let 7 veteran (slow) starters go after the 2021 playoffs. The players who everyone is calling duds actually played well last year.

If Bill was back with this same team, and the addition of Maye plus Gonzalez, plus a better draft than this one from picking in the top of every round for the first time since 1993, the Patriots are a playoff team this year. Say what you want about Bill's drafts, but even what people deem the bad ones still yielded 3 starters.

That's never going to happen from this draft, with only Maye and Robinson.

Onwenu, Jennings, Dugger, Barmore, Rham, Marcus Jones, Cole Strange, Demario, Gonzalez, Keion White, Boutte came in during this period, and the Free Agents weren't so bad with Bourne, Hunter Henry, Judon, and Peppers, and heck if we had a QB we may have even made use of Jonnu. You can see with all these names the start of a Belichick team that was no different than what we had in 2000 when Belichick arrived in New England.

Bill is a amazing coach. Defense was stout.

No debate there.

Bill the GM is ass. He made many mistakes and his failure to address the offense at a professional level, while not for not trying, was his downfall.

He earned his firing.

Wasting picks on punters and kickers that never make the team or cut a year later is egregious. Blowing two picks on two tight ends that don't belong in the NFL? Embarrassing.

The best wr he drafted was a converted quarterback.

I'm sorry, without Brady his faults at player selection catches up to him long before 2023.